17 inch Papa Johns Clone - hmm I screwed something up

[Grilling24x7]

Hi,

So after seasoning my new 17 inch pizza screen I was thrilled to try out Pete-zza's 2 day papa johns clone recipe.  I replaced Vegetable oil with canola oil since I didn't have any vegetable oil.

17 inch papa johns via the expanded dough calculator.

Flour (100%):    524.03 g  |  18.48 oz | 1.16 lbs
Water (56.5%):    296.08 g  |  10.44 oz | 0.65 lbs
IDY (0.28%):    1.47 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    9.17 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.91 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
Canola Oil (7.3%):    38.25 g | 1.35 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.42 tsp | 2.81 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):    22.01 g | 0.78 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.52 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Total (170.03%):   891.01 g | 31.43 oz | 1.96 lbs | TF = 0.1384663

I hit a few road bumps on the way.

1 - I didn't use warm water.  I think the original recipe said something about 65 degree water?  Well I stuck my finger in it and said "yup, that's about room temp" and off I went.  After making the dough according to Peter's directions (water, then salt, sugar, oil then flour, knead and then yeast and then knead some more) I put it in the fridge for 2 days.  On the morning of day two I swear that it didn't look like any fermentation had taken place.  I didn't know what to do.  So I pulled the dough out of the fridge and let it sit for room temp for about 4-5 hours.  So 43 or so hours in the fridge and then 4-5 hours at room temp was my 'fermentation' period.

2-  My brain is wired for NY style pizzas.  When I was forming this dough I did my same NY style routine where I extended my fists along the circumference of the dough.  I then push outward and this tends to make a nice dough.  Well, WOW, this dough was HUGE!  It was easily a 20 incher.  It hung over the sides of my pizza screen and there really wasn't anything else that I could do other then squish it back up on the screen.  I wanted to work quickly so it wouldn't stick to my screen.  It didn't stick at all, but it did hang over.

The pizza was baked on my screen (no stone) for 10 min at 500 degrees.

 Once before I did a Papa John's emergency dough recipe.  This tasted nothing like a Papa Johns pizza.  Now, let's be clear.  This is no knock on Peter.  This is most certainly my fault.  Either the fermentation failed or I made it too flat in the middle, or the Canola oil is a no-no.

I will certainly try this again after hearing what you guys have to say.

John

[Matthew]

John,

The the oil shouldn't make a difference, I have used canola, vegetable, & olive with consistent results.  I am by no means an expert on yeast because I have been using a starter for quite some time now but could it be that your yeast was expired?  When I used to use yeast I would always proof it first & I'm glad that I did because a couple of times it was inactive even though the expiry date on the package was still okay.

Matt

[Grilling24x7]

I think you have a point.  While my IDY yeast hasn't expired, my normal method of using yeast is as follows:

I scoop a tsp or so out of the packet for the dough and then place the remaining yeast in the packet into a ziploc bag and put it back into the closet.  This packet may be used again 2 weeks later.  This is probably not a good idea.

As a quick test to see if my yeast has life, I poured roughly a tsp of yeast into a small bowl, poured some warm water over it and added some sugar.  The yeast appeared to have dissolved but after 30+ minutes there was no real foaming or frothing.  Now maybe I can't really test IDY like this, but I know that ADY will at least show some better signs of life.

I wonder if i need to re-evaluate my yeast situation.  Would it be better to use ADY and proof for each dough, that way I at least see that the yeast is 'waking up?'

What a bust.  This is the second fermentation failure that I've had.  Last time I attributed it to using a different refrigerator that is colder, but I have a suspicious feeling that it was the yeast.

[Matthew]

I think you have a point.  While my IDY yeast hasn't expired, my normal method of using yeast is as follows:

I scoop a tsp or so out of the packet for the dough and then place the remaining yeast in the packet into a ziploc bag and put it back into the closet.  This packet may be used again 2 weeks later.  This is probably not a good idea.

As a quick test to see if my yeast has life, I poured roughly a tsp of yeast into a small bowl, poured some warm water over it and added some sugar.  The yeast appeared to have dissolved but after 30+ minutes there was no real foaming or frothing.  Now maybe I can't really test IDY like this, but I know that ADY will at least show some better signs of life.

I wonder if i need to re-evaluate my yeast situation.  Would it be better to use ADY and proof for each dough, that way I at least see that the yeast is 'waking up?'

What a bust.  This is the second fermentation failure that I've had.  Last time I attributed it to using a different refrigerator that is colder, but I have a suspicious feeling that it was the yeast.

Based on what you're telling me, it sounds like it was definitely the yeast.  You should put any leftover yeast in the fridge or freezer as it will greatly extend its life.  My advice on the yeast is if you're happy with ADY, then continue on with it.  It's very disappointing to do through all this effort to discover that your yeast was dead.   Don't give up, keep on going!

Matt

[Pete-zza]

John,

I agree with Matt's assessment, both with respect to the types of oil used and the yeast.

I store my dry yeast (IDY and ADY) in my freezer and I can't recall ever losing a dough due to yeast malfunction, even for yeast that is several years old. I might add a bit more yeast than called for by the recipes I am using, on the assumption that it has lost some of its leavening power because of its age, but that is about it. Because I freeze my dry yeast, I have never found it necessary to proof it before using. But, if you decide for any reason to do so, the recommended way of doing so is described at http://www.breadworld.com/FAQ.aspx. Whether you decide to use IDY or ADY, I think you will find that you will get more consistent results if you freeze your yeasts.

FYI, it is possible to make "thin" versions of Papa John style pizzas. I did so on several occasions before attempting to come up with more accurate clones of that style. I discussed my results in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html. As you will see there, I used a pizza screen to make the thin PJ clones.

Peter

[Grilling24x7]

Because I freeze my dry yeast, I have never found it necessary to proof it before using.

Peter,
I am reading this correctly?  Even for ADY, you keep it in the freezer and do not proof it before adding to your dough?  In other words, you use it similar to IDY?

John

[Pete-zza]

I am reading this correctly?  Even for ADY, you keep it in the freezer and do not proof it before adding to your dough?  In other words, you use it similar to IDY?

John,

I keep both IDY and ADY in my freezer. I perhaps should have been clearer on my use of the term "proof". Technically, that term applies to the steps taken to determine if a yeast is viable. Those are the steps that I referenced in the Fleischmann's link. However, the term "proof" is often also used synonymously with the term "rehydrate" or "prehydrate", even by experts. I used to use the term "proof" synonymously with "rehydrate" but, to be more correct, I no longer do so. 

So, in the case of ADY, I do not "proof" it but I do "rehydrate" it. That is done in a small amount of warm water at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. The warm water is part of the total formula water. The rest of the water (the part not used to rehydrate the ADY) is kept on the cool side.

Peter

[Grilling24x7]

I had to redeem myself for the Friday night yeast failure shown above.  Unfortunately, for my redemption I wanted pizza and I wanted it now!  So I had to dive into Peter's Papa John's thread under the emergency section.

The recipe that I followed was identical to:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312.  I followed it pretty much the same except for the fact that I used my electric mixer for most of the kneading.  I didn't do dustinator step, or the docking steps. 

It is a 14 inch pizza that I baked on my 17 inch pizza screen at 500 degrees for about 10 min.  I also used ADY rather than IDY with a 10 min "rehydration."  I also performed the 2 hour rise in my microwave with a cup of boiling water (b/c it was so cold in here).

I used a mixture of cheese (whole milk mozz - two different kinds, and some store brand Monterey Jack) and boars head pepperoni.

For a two hour rise this was a really great pizza.  I look forward to trying a much longer rise.

I know this thread doesn't contribute much, but I love taking pictures of food!  Here are some pics!

[Grilling24x7]

one more for fun

[Pete-zza]

John,

I'd say you did really well. For an "emergency" type dough, the dough formulation you used is a good one for a PJ style pizza. However, if you want to extend the fermentation time, you might want to use one of the PJ clone formulations designed for the longer fermentation time. A logical next step would be to a PJ clone dough such as the one described at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. You can even adapt it to a 17" size if you'd like.

Peter

[Grilling24x7]

Yeah, for my next one I'll try the recipe I used above (and screwed up) in the first post of this thread.  It is the 2 day PJ clone adapted for 17 inches.

I still think I'm doing something wrong in terms of forming the skin.  If you look close and compare my most recent pizza to those of yours in the Papa Johns thread - mine have a large rim that tapers down to a really flat almost NY style center.  Yours (Peters) seems to be more elevated in the center, like it is thicker throughout the entire slice of pizza.  I wonder if I'm pushing and pulling too hard while being too careful to not touch the rim.

Regardless, it was one hell of an emergency pizza!  And I'm embarrassed to say that I ate the whole thing!   

[Pete-zza]

John,

If you look at photos of real Papa John's pizzas, they have well-defined rims. I'm sure that the PJ store manual instructs workers to make their skins so as to produce those defined rims. However, I have never seen that result in the local PJ store I frequent. Knowing that a fairly large rim can form in my dough clones if I focus too much on the center of the skin during forming, I am careful to keep the rims on the small side. If they are too large at the beginning, I know that they will get even larger after baking. So, sometimes I just press or pinch the rim flat. At Papa John's, they use dough dockers, and sometimes they dock the dough skins so aggressively that there is almost no rim.

It all comes down to what you like. Some people prefer big rims on their pizzas. I was just trying to capture the look and feel of the PJ pizzas. And the taste, of course. The emergency pizza is very good in a pinch if you like the PJ style, but you really have to go out several days worth of fermentation to get closer to the PJ taste profile. I think that the cheeses PJ uses is the weakest link of their pizzas, so you can make an even better product by using high quality cheeses.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Just wanted to add my notes about yeast.  I typically use Hodgson Mill ADY.  On the package they recommend to store their yeast in a cool dry place (freezer not recommended).  So I store their yeast in a ziplock in the fridge.

I use to store other brand ADY/IDY in a ziplock in the freezer and never had issues with it as well.  Which leads me to believe that freezing dough balls for future use won't damage the yeast either.  I'm not so sure that the freezing doesn't degrade the overall quality of the dough, but at least I don't think it hurts the yeast.

On the package it also recommends proofing the yeast by dissolving in warm water (100-115) and a 1/4 tsp of sugar. 

For the record I almost never proof yeast.  For ADY (as well as IDY)  I put it directly into the flour along with other dry ingredients prior to kneading whether it's for an emergency dough or a cold ferment and have yet to have any yeast fail b/c of that.   You can proof the yeast if you like, but I'm pretty confident it's not necessary.   

The plus side to proofing is that you can visually see that your yeast is active or dead.  An active yeast will always foam after 10min.  Your first batch that failed to foam after 30mins was likely dead. 

[Pete-zza]

Tran,

Freezing dough does, in fact, kill some of the yeast, by rupturing the cells as the water in the dough expands as it freezes. As a result, commercial frozen dough ball producers compensate by dramatically increasing the amount of yeast, by about double or triple the normal amount. The downside of doing that is that once the dough balls are defrosted, if they aren't used fairly promptly (about a day or so after defrosting), they can overferment and become wet and slack and hard to handle. Commercially made frozen dough balls are flash frozen at very low temperatures and will have longer useful dough lives than those made and frozen in the freezers of our home refrigerators, especially those that have defrost cycles that cycle on and off, which is not the best thing to do to a frozen dough.

As far as rehydrating ADY or not, there is nothing wrong with adding the ADY dry to the flour and other dry ingredients so long as you follow the instructions for doing so that are given on the yeast package. However, adding ADY dry to the flour and treating it as though it were IDY in all respects will, in my experience, extend the fermentation window quite significantly. In fact, I have used that characteristic to make doughs that can sustain over a week of cold fermentation. I even used that technique to make a PJ clone dough that went out to over eight days, as I discussed at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. Ideally, for this method to work best, you want to use rerlatively small quantities of ADY. Too much, along with using water on the warm side, can speed things up more than you want and you will have a shorter useful dough window as a result.

Peter