Author Topic: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation  (Read 2745 times)

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Offline torontonian

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Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« on: November 10, 2009, 03:30:42 PM »
Hi All,

I've been having some great success with a number of the recipes on this site, and would now like to try a Neapolitan. I need a recommendation, not just on ingredients, but more specifically on the steps (starters, bigas, autolyze, etc, etc).

I've read and re-read Varasano's page a number of times, and think I get the gist of it. I do have to admit, I find the specific "procedure" of Jeff's page a little hard to follow (being new to this), and I don't have any sourdough starter yeast. I will probably order some at some point soon. However in the meantime, I'd like to try a recipe that doesn't require wild yeast (but gets good results!).

Can someone point me to a good starting point? And by the way, I have already modified my oven the way Varasano did, and have 00 flour to hand.

Thx,
Josh


Offline torontonian

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2009, 06:11:45 PM »
I just noticed another thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9568.0.html with a similar ask - and I when I read the replies, I can see why there aren't a bunch of standard recipes listed. (Also should have done a little more searching before my original post - apologies)

Maybe I can be more specific then in someone generating a recommendation:

- I intend to use 00 flours (I will have to follow up with member Matt on a local source)
- I intend to use my home oven, modified to run on the cleaning cycle (it gets damn hot! Don't have an IR thermometer though)
- I do NOT intend (initially at least until I am more comfortable) to use a sourdough or wild yeast starter; I'd like to stick to either IDY/ADY for now
- Open to any other preferment/starter/etc though

I hope this helps narrow down a more specific recommendation.

Thanks!

-- Josh

Offline ERASMO

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 06:35:26 PM »
Josh

I have been using the recipe on the Forno Bravo site.  Simple and works well for me in the wood fired oven.
http://www.fornobravo.com/pizza/pizza_dough.html


Here is the recipe from the Molino Caputo site.
http://www.molinocaputo.it/eng/homeEng.htm

Hope this helps

Offline torontonian

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 06:53:58 PM »
Thanks for those Erasmo.

I may give them a try.

I would have preferred something with a preferment/starter of some sort, just to give that method a try.

Offline scottfsmith

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2009, 10:27:53 PM »
If you use a 12-hr ferment like the Molino recipe above you will get a similar effect as a preferment.  I myself never use preferments in pizza or bread baking, I just do longer (and longer ;D) ferments.

Scott

Offline scpizza

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2009, 01:31:47 AM »
Along with the glossary it might be helpful to have a standard, stock recipe for Neapolitan, NY style, etc. so folks have a simple starting point for their journeys. Yes, I know it's not that simple, there is no one recipe, but beginners need a starting point without being forced to read 1000 posts to find one to begin working with.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2009, 01:24:36 PM »
Josh's request is quite narrow in that he is looking for a dough recipe specifically tailored to his planned use of his home oven in the clean cycle mode. Before Josh decides to jump headfirst into a sea of posts, if I were he I would ask members who have such a dough recipe and have successfully used it in relation to their modified ovens to come forth with their best suggestions. I have compiled many Neapolitan style dough recipes but they are with respect to a standard home oven and unlikely to work well with a modified home oven. I also recall seeing some posts in which members used Neapolitan style doughs with 2Stone and LBE units but my recollection is that the results were not always consistent and such use didn't seem to gain much traction. However, my memory on this may be faulty and maybe members who succeeded with such units have simply not posted. If so, perhaps they, too, can step forward with their best suggestions and give Josh a helping hand. Failing that, Josh might try the Neapolitan dough recipe that Marco (pizzanapoletana) recommended when he became a member of this forum. That recipe, which contemplates using either commercial yeast (compressed yeast) or a natural starter (Crisceto), can be seen at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12892/topicseen.html#msg12892.

Another possibility is to try the Neapolitan dough recipe given at the US VPN association website at http://www.anticapizzeria.net/vpn/vpn_frames-index.htm (click on the Recipe link at the bottom of the page). However, I would caution Josh that the instructions given for preparing the dough for that recipe, particularly knead times, is predicated on the use of Italian mixers, not planetary mixers, and also that the 1800 grams of flour is likely to be too high for one liter of water (see, for example, Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13378/topicseen.html#msg13378 and Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1235.msg11084/topicseen.html#msg11084). As with Marco's recipe, the VPN recipe is tailored for use in a very high temperature wood-fired oven. I have no idea as to whether either recipe is readily adaptable to a modified home oven environment. Both of these recipes also contemplate making the dough and fermenting it at room temperature, which arguably is the hardest dough to make consistently well.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 01:27:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2009, 01:42:38 PM »
Josh,

Following up on my last post, here is an example of a Neapolitan style dough formulation that is usable with a 2Stone unit and can be used either with a natural starter or commercial yeast: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8326.msg71786.html#msg71786.

Peter

Offline torontonian

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2009, 03:40:38 PM »
Thanks again Peter.

Marco's recipe call for this:

50g of Crisceto (starter) or 2.5g of fresh yeast

How do I make the Crisceto starter? I'm not sure I'm comfortable working with fresh yeast quite yet...

-- Josh

Offline Matthew

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2009, 03:47:24 PM »
Thanks again Peter.

Marco's recipe call for this:

50g of Crisceto (starter) or 2.5g of fresh yeast

How do I make the Crisceto starter? I'm not sure I'm comfortable working with fresh yeast quite yet...

-- Josh

You can't. Crisceto is Italian for starter or wild yeast. 

Matt


Offline torontonian

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 03:52:22 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Matt.

Maybe I need to bite the bullet and order a culture from sourdo.com

Matt - Do you know they ship to Canada or is there a local source for such things?

Offline Matthew

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2009, 03:59:05 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Matt.

Maybe I need to bite the bullet and order a culture from sourdo.com

Matt - Do you know they ship to Canada or is there a local source for such things?

Yes they will, shipping is not cheap though. Ed's book is also very informative. I ended up ordering the book    as well because if I recall correctly the combined shipping for the book & the cultures was the same as shipping the cultures only.

I hope that I read your previous post correctly.  You can make your own starter but sometimes it works & sometimes it doesn't & even if it does there is no guarantee that it is a good one.

Offline torontonian

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2009, 04:05:07 PM »
I really don't get this starter / wild yeast thing.

Would I be correct in saying that I can create my own (yeast in the air), but ordering a culture and proper instructions from Ed I will have better results and a tastier result?

What exactly does he ship? A container that is visibly empty, but in fact contains wild yeast?

Sorry if the questions sound dumb!

-- Josh

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 04:13:01 PM »
Josh,

There are some people who try to make their own cultures using wild yeast that prevails where they live, but the most direct and perhaps best way is to buy the Ischia and Camaldoli starter ingredients from Sourdough International (http://www.sourdo.com/). That said, I usually try to discourage new members from creating and using natural starters until they have mastered basic dough preparation methods using commercial yeast. It isn't as though you will be missing something or are compelled to act with great urgency. You can perhaps count on the fingers of one hand how many Neapolitan pizza operators are using natural starters and saying so. Most use fresh yeast. Even Marco's recipe acknowledges that.

It's up to you how you choose to proceed. But, in Marco's recipe, the fresh yeast can be replaced by a dry form of yeast, either active dry yeast (ADY) or instant dry yeast (IDY). For example, the 2.5 grams of fresh yeast in Marco's recipe can be replaced by about one gram (properly rehydrated) of ADY or about 0.75 grams of IDY. Technically, you should add some water to the dough formulation when making such substitutions to compensate for the fact that the fresh yeast contains water.

There are many others who are more current in their use of natural starters, but there is an entire board devoted to that topic at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,37.0.html.

Peter

Offline scottfsmith

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 09:40:25 PM »
This bears repeating:

You can perhaps count on the fingers of one hand how many Neapolitan pizza operators are using natural starters and saying so

I would say the natural starter should be the last thing to look into, after you have the perfected the dough formulation and kneading, the fermentation, the pizza formation, the toppings, and the oven technique.  I feel like I am getting close on these but I have yet to attempt a natural starter.

Scott

Offline torontonian

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2009, 09:55:30 PM »
Points well taken Matt, Peter, and Scott.

I am still far from being 100% on the factors you point out Scott. But I am working on it!

.. and I am curious as to what a natural starter might add to the taste.

Part of the curiosity is that most of the Neapolitan formulations I have found on the site do indeed include some form of natural starter... at least the ones I've researched!

Thanks again all.

-- Josh

Offline Matthew

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2009, 06:40:58 AM »




.. and I am curious as to what a natural starter might add to the taste.


-- Josh

My personal observation is that under standard home oven conditions, not alot.  Where you can really taste the difference is under high heat.  I made up 2 batches this summer for my WFO one with a starter & one with commercial yeast.  I did not say anything to my guests just to see if they could tell the difference.  I made 2 identical margheritas, 1 with each dough.  Everyone who tried it asked me what I put in that pizza that made it taste so different.  Apart from the flavor, the long room temperature fermentation also imparts a very tender & delicate characteristic to the dough that is extremely difficult to achieve using commercial yeast.

Matt

Offline scottfsmith

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2009, 10:29:28 AM »
Apart from the flavor, the long room temperature fermentation also imparts a very tender & delicate characteristic to the dough that is extremely difficult to achieve using commercial yeast.

Matt, it is not hard to do a long fermentation with commercial yeast, just add very little.  My overnight room-temp pizza fermentation uses something like 100 grains of ADY (less than a gram) in 1000g flour.  It also produces a more flavorful dough than a short ferment.  I would be interested in a comparison of equal-length fermentation times of natural vs commercial yeast to see how much difference there is.  My wild guess is not much at all (but, still noticeable).

Scott

Offline Matthew

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Re: Neapolitan Recipe Recommendation
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2009, 07:12:40 PM »
Matt, it is not hard to do a long fermentation with commercial yeast, just add very little. 
Scott


I didn't say that.  My reference was to the characteristics of the dough tenderness using a crisceto & a long fermentation.


 

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