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Offline bonesbr549

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Help with a dough recipie
« on: November 19, 2009, 08:34:29 AM »
I have been making the papa-john's clone dough recipie form here with great results.  I've used KA High gluetin and their IDY they sell.   I've got two problems.  One I got tired of buying the little 3lb bags at 7$ and bought some alltrumps hg from pitt macaroni company for 4$ for 5lbs.  I'm not sure how it will impact my recipie.  Secondly my current recipie requires weight in grams but my scale bit the dust.  I have another on order but won't get here in time.  I'm having a pizza party on sat and wanted to get the dough made tonight to rest in the frig till Sat.   Anybody have an easy dough recipie that i could use volume measure to get the job done this time?  Finally I'm using a stone and the oven to 550. 

I found this one, thoughts?

Flour (KABF)* (100%)354grm
Water** (56.5%)200grm
IDY (0.14%)1/4tsp
Salt (1.75%)6grm
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%)6grm of olive oil
Sugar (4.8%)17grm
Total (170.49%):   354.44 g  |  12.5 oz | 0.78 lbs
200.26 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
25.87 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.7 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
17.01 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.27 tsp | 1.42 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.31 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A

*KABF: 12.5 oz. = 2 c. + 1/2 c. + 1/4 c. + a bit over 3 1/3 t.
**Water: 7.06 oz. = 3/4 c. + 1 T. + a bit over 1 1/2 t.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 09:45:14 AM »
bonesbr549,

The dough formulation you posted, from Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58509.html#msg58509, will not be the best choice for you because that dough formulation calls for a longer fermentation window than the one you would like to use. I suggest that you use the dough formulation given at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. However, if you will be using All Trumps high-gluten flour, you will perhaps want to increase the hydration by about 1%. I have not worked with the AT flour, so some tweaking of the amount of water and/or flour may be necessary to achieve the desired final dough condition. But, on the assumption that the 1% increase in hydration will work, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, the dough formulation given in Reply 20 becomes:

All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (171.03%):
353.32 g  |  12.46 oz | 0.78 lbs
203.16 g  |  7.17 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.99 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
6.18 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
25.79 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.68 tsp | 1.89 tbsp
14.84 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.72 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.13642; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I normally use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to convert weights of flours to volume measurements. However, the All Trumps flour is not in the pull-down menu to be able to do this. So, you can either use the volume measurements given for the KABF in Reply 20 referenced above and tweak the amount of AT flour and/or the water to get the proper dough condition or use the numbers for the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour, which is also a high-gluten flour and is in the pull-down menu. Even with the KASL numbers, you may still need to tweak the flour and/or water because the KASL and AT flours are not identical. For the KASL flour, and assuming the Textbook method of flour measurement recited in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator, and that you have a standard set of measuring cups and spoons, the 12.46 ounces of flour in the above table converts to 2 c. + 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + 2.5 t. It is very important that you use the Textbook method of flour measurement since any other method will change the numbers and perhaps make them unworkable. With respect to the 7.17 ounces of water given in the above table, it converts to 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + 1 1/4 t. The level of the water in the measurement cups should be viewed at eye level with the cups on a flat surface.

Unless you have some ascorbic acid on hand, there will be not need to use it. It is optional. The instructions in Reply 20 are the instructions that I suggest you use with the AT flour.

If you decide to proceed with the above recommendations, I hope you will let us know how things turn out.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:35:24 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline bonesbr549

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 10:17:15 AM »
Thanks.  If (and I did not mention this sorry) I am going to make 12" pies is there any need to adjust this. Sorry I'm not very understanding of the whole thickness factor thing?  Secondly, If I wanted a greater browning effect on the crust what's the easiest way to acomplish?

  I have some KAF dry milk that I bought that someone suggested I add to the flour to help brown the outside.  The reason I ask is at my temp I've been using (550) the bottom is getting done very nicely, but I have to remove due to the sauce and toping getting to done.  This leaves the bottom very nice, the sides ok, but not dark brown, and the top of the dough next to the sauce still a little doughy in places.  Will it work or should I try something else like droping the temp?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 01:26:46 PM »
bonesbr549,

The dough formulation for the 12" size is as follows:

All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (171.03%):
259.58 g  |  9.16 oz | 0.57 lbs
149.26 g  |  5.26 oz | 0.33 lbs
0.73 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
4.54 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
18.95 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.17 tsp | 1.39 tbsp
10.9 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.73 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
443.97 g | 15.66 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1384663
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.13642: bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

If you plan to make more than one pizza, you should use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. All you need to do is select the Thickness Factor option, use a thickness factor of 0.13642, fill in the rest of the entry boxes and, at the end, use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. Once you are done with that, use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to convert the flour and water quantities from weights to volume measurements, as I did with the 14" version. The same tool can also be used if you plan to make only one pizza.

It is correct that adding dry milk powder to the dough formulation should improve crust coloration. Using fresh milk for all or part of the formula water will also do the same thing although you might find that you have to scald the milk and let it cool before using in the dough. I have found the Papa John's clone doughs to have good coloration and not tried them using milk in any form, but there is a Peter Reinhart dough recipe for an American style pizza in his book American Pie, at pages 116-117. I attempted a version of that recipe at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672. That recipe was for a 14" pizza also, but if that recipe had more appeal to you, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool to scale it down to 12" for any number of pizzas you would like. For this purpose, I would use the thickness factor 0.136419. Again, the bowl residue compensation to use is 1.5%. I hand kneaded the Reinhart clone dough but it can also be made using a standard home mixer.

I neglected to mention before that when I make the Papa John's clone pizzas I use a pizza screen. The doughs for such pizzas contain a lot of sugar and can lead to premature browning, or even burning, of the bottom crust when baked on a preheated pizza stone. That might lead to the rest of the pizza being underbaked, especially given the relatively thick crusts of the pizzas. However, there are some members who apparently have attempted baking similar pizzas on pizza stones, one example of which is the one described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9453.0.html. Another member also mentioned recently that he places his pizza stone at a higher oven rack position. The instructions for the Reinhart pizza in his book call for placing the pizza stone at the middle oven rack position and preheating it at the oven's highest temperature for at least an hour. Whichever method is used, you should monitor the bottom crust to be sure that it doesn't burn, and you may also want to use a lower oven temperature. It will all depend on your oven. When I made the Reinhart clone, I used a pizza screen for that pizza also.

When making the Papa John's clone pizzas, if I find it desirable to get more top crust coloration, I move the pizza off of the screen and place it at a higher oven rack position where there is more top heat to provide increased top crust coloration. I do not use the broiler element.

Good luck and please report back on your results.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:02:51 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline bonesbr549

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2009, 02:29:35 PM »
bonesbr549,

The dough formulation for the 12" size is as follows:

All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (171.03%):
259.58 g  |  9.16 oz | 0.57 lbs
149.26 g  |  5.26 oz | 0.33 lbs
0.73 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
4.54 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
18.95 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.17 tsp | 1.39 tbsp
10.9 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.73 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
443.97 g | 15.66 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1384663
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.13642: bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

If you plan to make more than one pizza, you should use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. All you need to do is select the Thickness Factor option, use a thickness factor of 0.13642, fill in the rest of the entry boxes and, at the end, use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. Once you are done with that, use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to convert the flour and water quantities from weights to volume measurements, as I did with the 14" version. The same tool can also be used if you plan to make only one pizza.

It is correct that adding dry milk powder to the dough formulation should improve crust coloration. Using fresh milk for all or part of the formula water will also do the same thing although you might find that you have to scald the milk and let it cool before using in the dough. I have found the Papa John's clone doughs to have good coloration and not tried them using milk in any form, but there is a Peter Reinhart dough recipe for an American style pizza in his book American Pie, at pages 116-117. I attempted a version of that recipe at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672. That recipe was for a 14" pizza also, but if that recipe had more appeal to you, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool to scale it down to 12" for any number of pizzas you would like. For this purpose, I would use the thickness factor 0.136419. Again, the bowl residue compensation to use is 1.5%. I hand kneaded the Reinhart clone dough but it can also be made using a standard home mixer.

I neglected to mention before that when I make the Papa John's clone pizzas I use a pizza screen. The doughs for such pizzas contain a lot of sugar and can lead to premature browning, or even burning, of the bottom crust when baked on a preheated pizza stone. That might lead to the rest of the pizza being underbaked, especially given the relatively thick crusts of the pizzas. However, there are some members who apparently have attempted baking similar pizzas on pizza stones, one example of which is the one described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9453.0.html. Another member also mentioned recently that he places his pizza stone at a higher oven rack position. The instructions for the Reinhart pizza in his book call for placing the pizza stone at the middle oven rack position and preheating it at the oven's highest temperature for at least an hour. Whichever method is used, you should monitor the bottom crust to be sure that it doesn't burn, and you may also want to use a lower oven temperature. It will all depend on your oven. When I made the Reinhart clone, I used a pizza screen for that pizza also.

When making the Papa John's clone pizzas, if I find it desirable to get more top crust coloration, I move the pizza off of the screen and place it at a higher oven rack position where there is more top heat to provide increased top crust coloration. I do not use the broiler element.

Good luck and please report back on your results.

Peter



Thanks for all the help.  I'll go with the 12" recipie.   Is there any general rule for applying the bakers dry milk? i.e. so many grams per grams of flour?
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz.  It indicates a 1/4 cup is a serving, would a 1/4 cup be advisable for say a single pie or a couple?  Just wondering. 


« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 10:07:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2009, 04:02:50 PM »
Is there any general rule for applying the bakers dry milk? i.e. so many grams per grams of flour?
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz.  It indicates a 1/4 cup is a serving, would a 1/4 cup be advisable for say a single pie or a couple?  Just wondering. 

I don't recall if there is a general rule as to the amount to use, but in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1873.msg17620/topicseen.html#msg17620, I suggested 3-5% of the flour weight. You might also find this PMQ Think Tank thread of interest: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=407&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0. Keep in mind that if you just add the dry milk to your dough formulation, you may need to adjust the hydration of the dough to compensate for the dryness of the dry milk.

Peter

Offline bonesbr549

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2009, 04:16:23 PM »
Will do.  I noticed the calculator you gave a link to reference dry milk, so I'll use that percentage.  thanks again.  I'll let you know how it goes. 

Offline madjack

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 09:56:09 AM »
You can see a recent post I made (with photo) on the PJ clone recipe thread, that I am also cooking with this recipe on a stone at 550F, bottom rack, with no excessive browning on the bottom. I have found that a little EV olive oil brushed around the rim does the trick for some extra browning on the sides. I also tried brushing on melted butter with a dash of oregano and a small clove of garlic, but didn't care for the results as much.

I've never had any issues with the crust being doughy like you describe, I would first try stretching the dough a bit thinner at the edges if you can. I have also had good results with other recipes by moving the pizza off the stone when the bottom is done, to the highest rack position in the oven and letting it bake there for a couple minutes as Peter described. I do this by sliding the pizza off the stone onto a cold, perforated pan (a cheapie from Walmart, probably designed for cooking frozen pizzas). Using this recipe however, I have always just been able to cook entirely on the stone.

As far as the thickness factor... if you want to use the recipes as described, don't worry about it too much... if you have a finished doughball weight that matches the recipe, and stretch to the diameter that the recipe is designed for, the thickness factor number is the result.

Offline bonesbr549

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 10:19:56 AM »
Will do.  I noticed the calculator you gave a link to reference dry milk, so I'll use that percentage.  thanks again.  I'll let you know how it goes. 

Well on the way home I picked up another scale (i'll have two so what). I went to the calculator and did as you said and scaled to 3 dough balls.  I used 4% on the bakers milk(split the difference between the 3-5 you mentioned) and I'll be darned if I did not get within 2 grams total weight on what the calculation said it should be for the ball weight.   I had to guess since the scale i bought only went down to single grams.   Anyway they look good and went into the fridge to start working I'm going to do some testing.  I think the first one, I will leave as is.  The second one, I intend to brush with butter, and the third will be EVOO.  Lets see how the browning goes.  I will start them with a screen i just purchased from penmac and finish directly on the stone.  I'll take some pictures.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 10:21:29 AM by bonesbr549 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2009, 11:01:00 AM »
You can see a recent post I made (with photo) on the PJ clone recipe thread, that I am also cooking with this recipe on a stone at 550F, bottom rack, with no excessive browning on the bottom. 

madjack,

Thanks for reminding me. You did make a nice pizza (Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg82317.html#msg82317). The crust was darker than the ones I make but very nice indeed. It is largely out of habit that I caution members about the high amount of sugar in the dough so that they watch the pizza as it bakes so they don't end up with an overly dark or burned bottom crust.

Peter


Offline bonesbr549

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Re: Help with a dough recipie
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 10:40:26 PM »
I don't recall if there is a general rule as to the amount to use, but in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1873.msg17620/topicseen.html#msg17620, I suggested 3-5% of the flour weight. You might also find this PMQ Think Tank thread of interest: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=407&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0. Keep in mind that if you just add the dry milk to your dough formulation, you may need to adjust the hydration of the dough to compensate for the dryness of the dry milk.

Peter

Well I had my party Saturday night and all I can say is thanks so much!  Everything came out perfect.  The Milk helped.  We had a couple of last minute additions to the guest list so I made a second batch Friday.  I made six pies and they all came out great!  I'm going to post another thread with pic's What fun.  I was curious if the 2nd batch would be as good since the first batch had a full 24hrs extra to work.   I could not tell any real difference to be honest.  I also tried some different coatings for the crust to see if the edge would brown better so I did a test.  I did the first pie with no coating and it was good.  The second pie was olive oil and it was great.  The third pie was melted butter, and it tasted better, but I think the OO gave a better texter.  The consensus from the guests were that OO coated was best for texture, but the butter flavor was good.  Thanks again!