NY style recommendation using a preferment

[torontonian]

Hi All,

To avoid hijacking another thread, I'd thought I'd start a new one looking for some suggestions on creating a Lehmann style dough using a preferment.

To understand what I am trying to do, here are the key points. I plan to:

- Use an initial preferment and create a dough that will cold ferment overnight (24 to 48 hours)
- Use a flour blend using VWG to boost the protein to a 14 or so percent level
- Cook on a stone at about 650 degrees

I'm looking for a bakers % that will work well with the goals stated above.

I've liked what autolyse/preferments have added to my crust flavour before. This is the first time I'm attempting this technique with added gluten and a slightly higher cooking temperature. I'd be open to raising the cooking temp (note I am using a standard oven, not a WFO) to around 700-750 if someone has a strong opinion on doing so. I am looking to maximize the NY style but not necessarily get into the Neapolitan given my home oven.

Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Josh

[Pete-zza]

Josh,

Since there are several different types of preferments, each of which can have a different effect on the final product, I think you should first decide what type of preferment is likely to most closely meet your requirements. I think a good way to start, and also to learn about preferments, is to read the following two articles by Didier Rosada: http://web.archive.org/web/20050116064312/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. All of the preferment types discussed in the Rosada articles can be used to modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. However, I do not think that I would start with the old dough (pre-fermented dough) method because, having experimented with that type of preferment, I think it lends itself better to commercial dough production than to home dough production. Whatever preferment method you decide to use, I would suggest that you use a thickness factor of around 0.085 or thereabouts, given the oven temperature you plan to use. That will yield a more "elite" NY style pizza. An 18" pizza would be the ideal size but 14" should also work if you cannot handle the 18" size in your oven and bake configuration.

Tom Lehmann, who perhaps knows his NY style dough recipe better than anyone else, tends to favor using biga-like and sponge preferments, as evidenced by Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239 and also by Tom's PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=56778#p56769, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4553&p=25747&hilit=#p25503 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38304#38304 (see also related Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814). Any of the preferment methods described by Tom Lehmann can be used to modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. While I could not find any evidence of Tom recommending the poolish preferment method for the NY style, I did a search yesterday of all of my posts in which I used the term "poolish" (about five pages of posts), and I found that I did post a poolish form of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6588.msg56632.html#msg56632. I had completely forgotten that I had posted the dough formulation given that I was not all that impressed with the results. I mention that dough formulation here solely for instructional purposes, not that you should try it out yourself (which I wouldn't suggest). It's also possible that some other member has already attempted a poolish version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, or possibly some other preferment version of that dough formulation, and may be willing to share that version with you.

In my search yesterday, I also found the following post, which may be the one you were looking for recently in another thread: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9784.msg84912/topicseen.html#msg84912. In that post, I discussed different possible values of yeast (IDY) for different fermentation periods.

Peter

[torontonian]

Thanks Peter.

I read the links you referenced, and thought I'd try the biga suggestion by Tom Lehmann. My thought was to apply Tom's biga 80:20 ratio (initial sponge:final dough), to the original Lehmann recipe you posted for me when I first joined at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9271.msg80247.html#msg80247

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (164.15%):
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088

However, while doing the math to calculate the sponge formula (I will be making two 14") a couple of things jumped out and I thought I would ask your advice...

- In Tom's sponge recommendation http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4553&p=25747&hilit=#p25503, his hydration level works out to 56% compared to the 62% you recommended. Is the lower hydration something to do with using the sponge, or some other reason. Note that I will be using a flour/VWG blend at 14.4% protein, and baking at about 600 degrees. I do plan to follow Tom's 3-4 hour room temp ferment, followed by an overnight in the refrigerator.

- His yeast % works out to 0.005%, which I understand given the room temperature preferment. Just wanted to be certain that I should be following 0.005% given what I am trying to do.

- He is using oil in his dough. Your original formulation didn't use any. Not sure if this is significant or not.

Thanks as always for the help.

-- Josh

[Pete-zza]

Josh,

You are correct that the total formula hydration for Tom's dough formulation is 56%: (20 + 8)/(40 + 10) = 56%.

I believe that Tom uses a lower hydration because he believes that the "sponge" has a softening effect on the final dough, and to compensate, he elects to use a lower formula hydration. This point came up in a PMQ Think Tank thread that Norma started recently. You can see Tom's explanation at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419#p56781. It's up to whether you can work with a total formula hydration of 56%, or whether you want to reconstruct the dough formulation you posted, with 62% hydration, to incorporate Tom's sponge preferment method.

The yeast quantity used in Tom's sponge preferment is not 0.005%. It is 4/(40 x 16) = 0.625%. That makes sense for a 3-4 hour prefermentation period at room temperature.

The omission in the oil in the dough formulation was intentional. I omitted the oil because, at the time the formulation was posted, you had indicated that you were planning to use your oven on the clean cycle. If you plan now to use 600 degrees F to bake the pizzas, I think that oil is optional.

Once you have a chance to digest the above, and to also determine whether you want to use some oil in the dough, we can revisit matters to see if your plan is viable and the numbers work.

Peter

[torontonian]

Peter - OK that makes sense.

I think I will try a 59% water formulation, as I have read that higher temperatures work better for higher hydrations. Figured I'd split the difference and see where that gets me.

Not sure what went wrong on the IDY calculation, but 0.625% makes more sense.

Regarding the temperature/oil, I plan to cook at about 650 degrees. This is still on the cleaning cycle, but I found the very high temperatures unwieldy, I almost always char the crust too much. I've played with different rack levels for the stone, using foil to cover the stone until cooking, but I haven't found a consistent solution for that. I now have an oven thermometer, so plan to bake at around 650 degrees for now to see how the results are.

Do you recommend any changes to Tom's sponge (or the final dough recipe) to compensate for using high gluten flour?

I'm having trouble using the dough tool to come up with a final formula, from which I can calculate the 80% sponge from. Here is what I have so far for 2 fourteen inch pizzas. Does this look right, before I start calculating the sponge?

Flour (100%):    546.05 g  |  19.26 oz | 1.2 lbs
Water (59%):    322.17 g  |  11.36 oz | 0.71 lbs
IDY (.625%):    3.41 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Salt (1.61763%):    8.83 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.58 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
Oil (1%):    5.46 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Total (162.24263%):   885.92 g | 31.25 oz | 1.95 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Single Ball:   442.96 g | 15.62 oz | 0.98 lbs

I'm working off a 0.1 thickness factor and 1.5% bowl residue.

Thanks!

[Pete-zza]

Josh,

For analysis and comparison purposes, I reworked Tom's data to show the total dough formulation. It looks like this:

Flour (100%): Water (56%): IDY (0.50%): Salt (1.75%): Olive Oil (2%): Total (160.25%):

22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs 12700.8 g  |  448 oz | 28 lbs 113.4 g | 4 oz | 0.25 lbs | 12.55 tbsp | 0.78 cups 396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.88 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups 453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 33.6 tbsp | 2.1 cups 36344.7 g | 1282 oz | 80.13 lbs | TF = N/A

Youi will note that the IDY in the total dough formulation is 0.50%, which is close to the IDY (0.40%) in the original recipe that you planned to work from. Also, the salt is 1.75%, just as it was in the aforesaid recipe. For your application, I don't see any problem using 0.50% IDY and 1.75% salt and 59% hydration.

Do you want to take another stab at the total dough formulation? Once we get that nailed down, we can parse it into the 80/20 sponge preferment and final mix. You should, of course, use the thickness factor and bowl residue compensation numbers that you referenced earlier.

Peter

[torontonian]

Peter - based on your tweaks, I reworked the formula as follows:

Flour (100%):    542.68 g  |  19.14 oz | 1.2 lbs
Water (59%):    320.18 g  |  11.29 oz | 0.71 lbs
IDY (.5%):    2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    9.5 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Oil (2%):    10.85 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.41 tsp | 0.8 tbsp
Total (163.25%):   885.92 g | 31.25 oz | 1.95 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Single Ball:   442.96 g | 15.62 oz | 0.98 lbs

Again a .10 thickness factor, and 1.5% residue.

Therefore, my (shaky) math tells me the initial sponge would be:

Flour (80% of total):    434.14 g
Water (50% of flour):    217.07 g  |  @ 70 degrees
IDY (.5%):    2.71 g | 0.9 tsp

Does this look right to you?

Thx,
Josh

[Pete-zza]

Josh,

Your numbers look fine.

To complete the story, do you want to post the Final Mix?

Peter

[torontonian]

Hi Peter,

I made the sponge, but I'm not sure what its supposed to look like...

It looks like a very dry, solid dough ball.

Is this correct? I think some of the panic was from the fact I used the paddle attachment, which really struggled. Plus, I was (erroneously) expecting something that looked like a poolish (wet). I switched to the hook for the remainder of the six minutes and it handled it OK.

To finish the dough after the 3 hour ferment, my calculation is this:

Flour: 108.54g
Water: 103.11g @70 degrees
Salt: 1.7tsp
Oil: 2.41 tsp

Am I on the right track?

[Pete-zza]

Josh,

Your Final Mix is correct and, yes, you are on the right track based on using Tom's methodology. At 50% hydration, your preferment should be stiff. Tom's preferment, and yours as well, has a consistency that is closer to a biga than to a sponge. I stuck with his terminology so as not to confuse you.

I look forward to your results and observations.

Peter

[torontonian]

I will let you know later on today 

One thing I screwed up on, is that I forgot to split the final dough into individual balls, and rather bulk cold fermented it as one ball.

I realized that this morning, and cut the ball into two, reballed, and put them back in the fridge in individual containers.

Another problem I had was that since I ran out of plastic wrap, I covered the bowl with a plate, with a heavy skillet on top. When I took the bulk dough out this morning, it had fully expanded but obviously couldn't lift the plate due to the skillet. The bowl itself had actually cracked. The ball once I removed it, didn't took too worse for wear.

Do you think either of the above pose irrecoverable problems?

Thx,
Josh

[Pete-zza]

Do you think either of the above pose irrecoverable problems?

Josh,

I don't think so. Essen1 (Mike) often divides a dough after it has been cold fermented in bulk, rather than before, but that is not something a professional pizza operator would do because it is more labor intensive and more difficult to form into smooth round balls when the dough is cold, especially when you are talking a few hundred dough balls. This would make it necessary to let the dough balls rest for a fair period of time (usually several hours) to recover from the handling before using. The restaurant A16 in California also had a practice in which cold fermented dough balls were punched down and re-shaped one or more times during the period of cold fermentation, but the dough balls had a lot of rest before shaping into skins. What you did seems to fall within these examples even though you departed from Tom's instructions.

You might keep in mind that if you run out of plastic wrap you can always use empty bread bags or plastic storage bags so long as you wipe the dough balls with a bit of oil to keep them from sticking to the bags. You can also use a damp cloth towel to cover the dough balls or containers.

Peter

[torontonian]

I made these two pizzas tonight.

Its amazing how a preferment can alter the taste of a dough. This was very good indeed. I baked these on a stone on the bottom rack for about 8 minutes at 600 degrees. I had to pull the pizzas out at about the 4 minute mark, as the bottoms started to burn. I quickly put them on a screen and whacked them back in the oven.

The amount of oven spring was significant (as you can tell from the pics), resulting in a pretty thick crust, with lots of big bubbles.

The biggest change I noticed with this dough compared the usual Lehmann I work with, is how crunchy the crust was. I wonder if this is down to the oil I added to the Lehmann this time. Previous crusts were not as crunchy. If it is indeed the oil, next time I will leave it out.

I prefer a thinner, less crunchy crust with a NY style pizza. I like the flavour of this crust. Any ideas how I should modify the recipe for a thinner, less puffy crust?

Thanks for all the help,
Josh

[Pete-zza]

Josh,

A preferment will often impart a certain degree of crispiness to the finished crust. I have commented on this before, as has Marco (pizzanapoletana), at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679/topicseen.html#msg8679.

Since I don't operate at the high temperatures you used, I am not the best one to comment on how you might improve your results from the standpoint of possible modifications to the dough formulation you used. However, I do not think that the oil was behind the crunchiness of the crust you experienced. Oil will add some tenderness to the finished crust but at 2% I wouldn't expect a great increase in crust tenderness. The effects of oil can be tested by a simple experiment in which you repeat the recipe but leave out the oil. You will get a drier crust without the oil.

You didn't say what sizes your pizzas were, but to make a thinner crust you might use a lower thickness factor or simply make a larger pizza for the amount of dough involved.

Can you describe the flavor of the crust in greater detail and, in particular, whether the flavor profile was different than your normal crusts made without a preferment?

Peter

[torontonian]

Peter,

Thanks for explaining some of what I found.

Perhaps the crispiness was due also to the fact that I baked these slightly longer than I usually do, having noticed that some others' attempts at the same doughs in other topics seemed to be baked longer than mine. Also contributing was the fact that the bottoms cooked extremely fast on the stone at that temperature. This is something I have to work on.

As far as the thickness goes, I could dial down the thickness factor as you suggest, but the more I think about this crust a lot of the thickness was pure rise and puff when it hit the hot stone.

Regarding the flavour description, the best I could describe it, is as a more rustic flavor. The regular Lehmann without a preferment was a more fresh bready flavor.

I definitely liked certain elements of this experiment and plan to try it again as my next dough. I will dial down the thickness factor slightly, and keep a better eye on the bottoms when baking.

-- Josh

[torontonian]

Peter,

FYI I have given this dough another try. My intent was to reduce the thickness factor to .09, and this time I decided to take Tom's suggestion from http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4553&p=25747&hilit=#p25503 and reduce the IDY and chill the biga overnight in the fridge. I reduced the IDY to 0.25 tsp (I'm going again for 2x 14" dough balls).

Unfortunately I did not recalculate my overall formula for a 0.09 TF, and instead used the 0.1 TF for the initial biga (which is sitting in my fridge right now), so I will need to do some quick math when it comes time to mix the final dough tomorrow.

-- Josh

[Essen1]

Essen1 (Mike) often divides a dough after it has been cold fermented in bulk, rather than before, but that is not something a professional pizza operator would do because it is more labor intensive and more difficult to form into smooth round balls when the dough is cold, especially when you are talking a few hundred dough balls.

Josh,

Peter's right.

It is somewhat a little struggle to get the dough balls re-shaped once they are divided because of their temperature. However, I always let the dough sit out for an hour or so before scaling it down. But I doubt that professional pizza operators would do it that way.