Author Topic: Anthony Mangieri Video  (Read 29385 times)

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Offline thezaman

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2009, 05:33:25 PM »
 i have a theory on his dough. i never got the opportunity to try it . i did try motorinos at upn it was a good pizza to much salt added as the last step before cooking, which enhanced the flavor at the expense of over salting.
 my theory is based on mr. mangieri stating that he read every book on Neapolitan pizza ever written. in the book LA pizza ,the chapter on dough stated that pizzerias leavened their dough one of two ways, natural ,or artificial yeast. "the former is simply a small amount of dough left over from the day before. that it that all i have .
 now how he started his first batch was possibly a started that he grew in the pizzeria. just a thought , this is what makes the forum fun!!
 


Offline PEEL

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2009, 01:03:36 AM »
autolysis is implied by the presence of withholding the 'starter' during the mixing process, as well as holding back a portion of the overall water.  this method of mixing requires 'building' the starter to proportions i have already mentioned, and is (inaccurately) referred to as a 'poolish.'  this style of dough-building is practiced by many new-world bakeries (in the u.s. and australia) who cribbed it from a handful of italian bakeries that influenced italian baking methods in both countries.  please note that the amount of starter he adds also reinforces the case that he uses this sort of mixing method, as it would be too much for a standard 25-kg batch.  the resultant dough uses the 'sponge-and-dough' method outlined by e.j. pyler, in which the bulk of all fermentative actions are done in a naturally-yeasted pre-ferment (in this case the 'poolish'), and essentially bypasses the actions that take place in 'bulk' fermentation.  in this sense, gas retention matters more than gas production, and involves converting maltose into ethanol and carbon dioxide.  the dough produced by this method favours lactic fermentation, evidenced by the taste of his pizze; produces a highly-hydrated dough that acts as a less-hydrated one, because elasticity is selected over extensibility; and allows for a quick 'rise.'

as a side note, we cannot talk about what is or isn't standard pizzamaking practice; we should limit ourselves to what mangieri's likely influences and knowledge-base are.  there's not a pizzeria i know of that divides dough into the 10-kg dough tubs as he's doing in 'naturally risen,' yet there are thousands of bakeries in france that do so for their baguette dough.

infoodel:  oh, italian baking is best known for a 'biga' (whatever that is) versus the method i've outlined?  most of the ones so-called 'artisanal' ones i am familiar with (about a few hundred) use a variant on the pasta madre technique (a hard starter sealed in a towel or a bag, and uses a similar dough-build to what i described, as is practiced in calabria, campania, puglia and sardegna) or by making a naturally-fermented poolish/poolisch/poulisch (various spellings depending on where you're at in italy).  of course, others use a hard starter with a pinch of commercial yeast (mostly in lazio, toscano and piemonte).  bakeries that employ bigas are mostly found in lombardia and the marche, although the use is so widespread now that it's nearly impossible to pinpoint what region it's associated with.  in fact, italian baking technique is sort of all over the map, and generalities are hard to come by.  but, if you want, we can name names, and trade notes on specific bakeries in italy.  i'm always looking to learning more about italian baking.

if this thread is about what we can 'learn' from mangieri rather than blindly replicating his pizze, then firsthand experience is probably best.  that's why i'm glad i can count myself as one of his friends, and have had the privilege of lived around the corner from him and upn for the years it was open.  i preferred eating his pizze to dissecting them.  the only way to know is to do, but he unfortunately doesn't accept stages.

cheers.

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2009, 01:45:42 AM »
Quote
autolysis is implied by the presence of withholding the 'starter' during the mixing process, as well as holding back a portion of the overall water.  this method of mixing requires 'building' the starter to proportions i have already mentioned, and is (inaccurately) referred to as a 'poolish.'  this style of dough-building is practiced by many new-world bakeries (in the u.s. and australia) who cribbed it from a handful of italian bakeries that influenced italian baking methods in both countries.  please note that the amount of starter he adds also reinforces the case that he uses this sort of mixing method, as it would be too much for a standard 25-kg batch.  the resultant dough uses the 'sponge-and-dough' method outlined by e.j. pyler, in which the bulk of all fermentative actions are done in a naturally-yeasted pre-ferment (in this case the 'poolish'), and essentially bypasses the actions that take place in 'bulk' fermentation.  in this sense, gas retention matters more than gas production, and involves converting maltose into ethanol and carbon dioxide.  the dough produced by this method favours lactic fermentation, evidenced by the taste of his pizze; produces a highly-hydrated dough that acts as a less-hydrated one, because elasticity is selected over extensibility; and allows for a quick 'rise.'


I think everyone here is well aware of 'autolysis' and it's role in gluten development. Its impact on overall texture and crumb can be significant. However I should stress again it is rarely used in pizza making...even for pizza as unique as that of Anthony Mangieri. I'm sure someone here can post a link to the photographs  taken circa 2005? which clearly show how he used to mix his dough...no autolyse in sight.
edit:
http://www.doale.com/index.php?/photoroot/series-belong/  are the photographs I was referring to.
While it's true you can't definitively conclude from those photographs whether autolyse was used, they do seem to imply a more simple technique where water is gradually added to flour (and presumably starter) to make the final dough.

FWIW I dont' think there has been any real confusion about 'poolish' on this thread. Since we are talking about a 'mangieri' dough, it's assumed that everyone knows that 'poolish'  actually refers to the wet naturally yeasted preferment shown clearly in the video. Wet starter or liquid starter may be a more appropriate term in a wider sense but in the context of the discussion - it's pretty much understood what it refers to. 
Your claim that using 'wet starter' is a technique 'cribbed from italian bakeries' is a bold one and I shall reserve comment - you are of course entitled to your opinion.
I'm confused as to what you mean by 'bypassing the actions that take place in bulk fermentation' or indeed 'gas retention' vs 'gas production'  - the reference is vague in the context of the 'mangieri dough'  The yeast fermentation process which produces carbon dioxide and ethanol is a completely different metabolic pathway (and indeed different microorganism!) to those of lactobacilli - which metabolise many different sugars (not just maltose) along both heterofermentative and homofermentative pathways resulting in different acid products (not just lactic acid).  All these processes usually occur simultaneously. The use of a wet starter allows the development of a certain flavour profile which is then added to the final dough...one which might not have developed otherwise using a direct mixing method (although if we're talking semantics, one could argue there is no such thing as a direct mix for naturally yeasted doughs since they will always contain some percentage of prefermented levain/starter).

Quote
as a side note, we cannot talk about what is or isn't standard pizzamaking practice; we should limit ourselves to what mangieri's likely influences and knowledge-base are.  there's not a pizzeria i know of that divides dough into the 10-kg dough tubs as he's doing in 'naturally risen,' yet there are thousands of bakeries in france that do so for their baguette dough.

There were no tubs in evidence in the video for bulk fermentation only a metal tray. I believe the 'tub' you are referring to was used to house the levain - not the final dough.
Quote
infoodel:  oh, italian baking is best known for a 'biga' (whatever that is) versus the method i've outlined?  most of the ones so-called 'artisanal' ones i am familiar with (about a few hundred) use a variant on the pasta madre technique (a hard starter sealed in a towel or a bag, and uses a similar dough-build to what i described, as is practiced in calabria, campania, puglia and sardegna) or by making a naturally-fermented poolish/poolisch/poulisch (various spellings depending on where you're at in italy).  of course, others use a hard starter with a pinch of commercial yeast (mostly in lazio, toscano and piemonte).  bakeries that employ bigas are mostly found in lombardia and the marche, although the use is so widespread now that it's nearly impossible to pinpoint what region it's associated with.  in fact, italian baking technique is sort of all over the map, and generalities are hard to come by.  but, if you want, we can name names, and trade notes on specific bakeries in italy.  i'm always looking to learning more about italian baking.

Well, I think we are both making the same point. It was your initial post in which you seemed to assert that 'wet starters' typified italian baking, which I disagreed with.  In no way am I suggesting all italian bakeries use biga but at the same time you can't deny it is  the term that most frequently comes to mind when one talks about italian baking in general. Now whether the preferment might be a pasta madre, biga naturale, liquid starter or one based on lievito di birra is a choice that each bakery makes. The range of techniques employed is huge as is the variety of bread produced (as are the ingredients) - be it ciabatta, pane di genzano, pane di altamura or indeed pizza napoletana.

Quote
if this thread is about what we can 'learn' from mangieri rather than blindly replicating his pizze, then firsthand experience is probably best.  that's why i'm glad i can count myself as one of his friends, and have had the privilege of lived around the corner from him and upn for the years it was open.  i preferred eating his pizze to dissecting them.  the only way to know is to do, but he unfortunately doesn't accept stages.


Again I think you miss the point. This thread is not an homage to Anthony Mangieri - it's an examination of the video 'naturally risen'. It was an exercise in 'what can we learn from this video?' - one which I, along with several others here had great fun analysing. I've not been so geographically fortunate as yourself to have eaten at Una Pizza Napoletana - but I still find the process outlined in the video to be of interest....as would, I hope, anyone reading this thread.

Cheers,

Toby
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 02:35:41 AM by Infoodel »

Offline PEEL

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2009, 03:51:45 AM »
oh, lordy, i don't have time for this, but here goes.

Quote
I think everyone here is well aware of 'autolysis' and it's role in gluten development. Its impact on overall texture and crumb can be significant. However I should stress again it is rarely used in pizza making...even for pizza as unique as that of Anthony Mangieri. I'm sure someone here can post a link to the photographs  taken circa 2005? which clearly show how he used to mix his dough...no autolyse in sight.


sigh.  anthony mangieri uses an autolyse, as does jim lahey (not a true one, but with the effects of one, due to the delayed yeast-adaptation because he uses active dry yeast), nancy silverton, ken forkish, and a whole host of other new-world, american-styled pizzaiolos, most of whom, like me, don't differentiate between breadmaking and pizzamaking.  as a point of interest, the role of autolysis in pizzamaking has less to do with 'gluten development' or 'texture and crumb' than it does with promoting dough extensibility.

Quote
edit:
http://www.doale.com/index.php?/photoroot/series-belong/  are the photographs I was referring to.
While it's true you can't definitively conclude from those photographs whether autolyse was used, they do seem to imply a more simple technique where water is gradually added to flour (and presumably starter) to make the final dough.


photographs tell you very, very little, if anything.

Quote
FWIW I dont' think there has been any real confusion about 'poolish' on this thread.


well, there seems to be on your part.

Quote
Since we are talking about a 'mangieri' dough, it's assumed that everyone knows that 'poolish'  actually refers to the wet naturally yeasted preferment shown clearly in the video. Wet starter or liquid starter may be a more appropriate term in a wider sense but in the context of the discussion - it's pretty much understood what it refers to.
Your claim that using 'wet starter' is a technique 'cribbed from italian bakeries' is a bold one and I shall reserve comment - you are of course entitled to your opinion.


a wet starter is different than the term 'poolish' as we are discussing here, both in the artisan-baking community in the u.s., as well as italy, they achieve very different ends.  the sponge-and-dough method i am referring to (outlined by e.j. pyler) uses the pre-ferment as a means of bypassing the main fermentative actions that normally take place during bulk fermentation (the inoculation and adaptation of the yeast culture; the assimilation of free, and mostly simple, sugars, such as glucose, fructose, and sucrose, which are converted into carbon dioxide and ethanol by zymase, which exists in yeast cells, not lactobacilli; the assimilation of maltose, converted to glucose by yeast maltase; the initial, intense period of gas production (rather than retention), which occurs in the first thirty minutes of fermentation; and, eventually, the conversion of damaged starches into maltose because of a and beta-amylases).  as pyler notes:  "In the sponge-and-dough method, the major fermentative action takes place in a preferment, called the sponge, in which normally 50 to 70% of the total dough flour is subjected to the physical, chemical, and biological actions of fermenting yeast. The sponge is subsequently combined with the rest of the dough ingredients to receive its final physical development during the dough mixing or remix stage…."  the percentage of poolish used by mangieri in 'naturally risen' (approximately 50% by flour weight) produces an end-dough with very different characteristics than one using just a wet starter, and, in this sense, he can be said to 'build' his starter, or pre-ferment.  it is that intermediate step that matters the most for mangieri's dough.

Quote
he yeast fermentation process which produces carbon dioxide and ethanol is a completely different metabolic pathway (and indeed different microorganism!) to those of lactobacilli -


wow, really!

Quote
which metabolise many different sugars (not just maltose) along both heterofermentative and homofermentative pathways resulting in different acid products (not just lactic acid).


but mostly homofermentative in mangieri's case, as already noted.

Quote
All these processes usually occur simultaneously.


no they don't, and that's why it's important to understand exactly what mangieri's doing.

Quote
The use of a wet starter allows the development of a certain flavour profile which is then added to the final dough...one which might not have developed otherwise using a direct mixing method (although if we're talking semantics, one could argue there is no such thing as a direct mix for naturally yeasted doughs since they will always contain some percentage of prefermented levain/starter).


it's not semantics, because the use of 'prefermented levain/starter' is introduced at much lower levels of inoculation than a naturally-yeasted poolish, which effectively skips over to the 'proofing' step, and results in a tighter dough that favours elasticity; that is in the gas-retention phase; and where yeast and bacterial reproduction are slowed.

Quote
Well, I think we are both making the same point. It was your initial post in which you seemed to assert that 'wet starters' typified italian baking, which I disagreed with. 


to the contrary.  i said mangieri is likely using a dough-building method cribbed from a handful of italian bakeries by particular american bakers.  it is a method used by several artisan bakeries in the u.s. and australia.

Quote
There were no tubs in evidence in the video for bulk fermentation only a metal tray. I believe the 'tub' you are referring to was used to house the levain - not the final dough.


now this was semantics.  my tub is your tray, or vice-versa, but they're the 10-kg trays/tubs all the rage in paris at the moments for bulk retarding baguette dough.

cheers.

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2009, 05:26:57 AM »
Rather than continue the discourse regarding PEEL's last response which honestly feels like trying to hold a conversation based on a mishmash of disparate 'information' of questionable relevance (and correctness), I've edited out my initial response here in interests of civility. My tone was perhaps overly harsh.

As PEEL puts it "oh, lordy, i don't have time for this"

Toby
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 08:09:39 AM by Infoodel »

Offline PEEL

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2009, 11:08:05 AM »
Quote
Rather than continue the discourse regarding PEEL's last response which honestly feels like trying to hold a conversation based on a mishmash of disparate 'information' of questionable relevance (and correctness), I've edited out my initial response here in interests of civility. My tone was perhaps overly harsh.

As PEEL puts it "oh, lordy, i don't have time for this"

a little background:  i once knew a man whose passion for food inspired me to join the ranks of hospitality.  i was a week-in, week-out regular for years at his pie joint, and him and i would hold forth on the morality of, say, buying produce from mexico, where one cannot see the labour or growing practices.  he always liked drinking beer, or maybe some local wine, which, in those days, there wasn't a lot of.  years later celebrity-chefs like mario batali, whose restaurant i once ran, would claim to know him from 'back in the day,' but none of them had heard of this pizza dude until levine scooped him in the times.

i have worked with or personally know every name i have mentioned.  i know anthony mangieri doesn't accept stages because i was the first person to ever ask him for one.  the style of poolish used in 'naturally risen' is a style i know mangieri to have used after he switched to mechanical kneading methods, and it's one i once used day in, day out at one of the artisanal bread joints i mixed at.  it produces a very specific result (one i am not fond of) that is instantly recognisable to anyone who has mixed using the very same method on a professional level.

the 'mishmash of disparate "information"' is the result of trying to discuss bread science when it's not needed.  whether or not my two cents are relevant or correct, i haven't a clue.  i have been a member of this board a lot longer than most, but i rarely chime in because i feel as though these threads promote a certain kind of pedantry that has more to do with talking rather than doing.  it was bianco that illuminated my path, where doing and practicing on a daily basis is more vital than talking, and that's the very reason i moved to ny in the first place:  to learn from the masters of my trade.  it's also the reason i don't participate in these sorts of venues, so back to the woodwork with me.  you probably know better than i do.

cheers.

Offline David

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #106 on: December 22, 2009, 01:55:15 PM »
chefs like mario batali, whose restaurant i once ran, would claim to know him from 'back in the day,' but none of them had heard of this pizza dude until levine scooped him in the times.

This is hillarious.If everyone who claimed to have been a patron 'back in the day',I doubt he would have ever left Ocean Ave for Manhattan.On the the numerous occasions I visited his store,there were never more than a few other customers in the place (yet still ran out of dough !).Speaking to him this past Spring ,by his own admission,he said there was never anybody there.I always thought it was Adrian Clurfeld (ex Asbury Park Press food critic ) and Arthur Swartz who championed his efforts?
If indeed you were the first to offfer you assistance,then I presume that was in his  Red Bank days.
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