Author Topic: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?  (Read 15855 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline locoarts

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« on: December 17, 2009, 11:49:35 AM »
Hi there,

I was thinking of starting something in the idea of a Subway type place, something that you can put in a small area where you don't need allot of expensive upstart/drama... ie: hoods - a real restaurant.

Basically having a Table, with slicer for meats, coolers, prep area for salads & thats it.

Like some all the sub shops. Subway, etc...

Question:

What Legally can I put in a place like this without Hoods..
- Electric Pizza Oven?
- Electric Flat Top? (How about a Gas Flat Top?)
- Electric Oven (subway - melting cheese/meat style)
- Can I put a Stove in??
- Can I put a Big Fryer everyone uses for fries, wings, chicken parm,etc in?
- Anymore Suggestions?

Can you reccomend (links) to nice solid but not a huge price for some of these things like Electric Ovens,Pizza Ovens,etc..

What is the minimum I need to sell food, if you were going to do it in this kind of way? Sink? Fire Extinguisher? If I put a Gas Line in do I then need.. Hoods??

 Thank You
 :)



Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 08:54:56 AM »
Hi there,

I was thinking of starting something in the idea of a Subway type place, something that you can put in a small area where you don't need allot of expensive upstart/drama... ie: hoods - a real restaurant.

Basically having a Table, with slicer for meats, coolers, prep area for salads & thats it.

Like some all the sub shops. Subway, etc...

Question:

What Legally can I put in a place like this without Hoods..
- Electric Pizza Oven?
- Electric Flat Top? (How about a Gas Flat Top?)
- Electric Oven (subway - melting cheese/meat style)
- Can I put a Stove in??
- Can I put a Big Fryer everyone uses for fries, wings, chicken parm,etc in?
- Anymore Suggestions?

Can you reccomend (links) to nice solid but not a huge price for some of these things like Electric Ovens,Pizza Ovens,etc..

What is the minimum I need to sell food, if you were going to do it in this kind of way? Sink? Fire Extinguisher? If I put a Gas Line in do I then need.. Hoods??

 Thank You
 :)



Cities and states are different everywhere with respect to these kinds of requirements. Searching the City/State food code for your area will likely give you the answer you need for hood requirements. However, it is my experience and general feeling that cities are leaning towards stiffer requirements especially with cooking appliances. Basically, any cooking appliance that will produce a "grease-laden vapor" requires a hood. The NFPA (97, I believe) lists examples of the types of cooking appliance requiring mechanical ventilation. There are also two types of hoods, I and II,  with number II being a less heavy-duty requirement with thinner gauge materials needed for ductwork and lower cfm requirement.

In the Twin Cities there are a couple Potbelly sandwich shops (decent food) with a simple little conveyor toaster oven and they have an enormous hood over it, an expense I'm positive they wouldn't have incurred if not absolutely necessary...Call the health department in your area and ask your hood questions, most inspectors I've ever dealt with are pretty cooperative when approached in a civil manner.



Offline locoarts

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 11:28:01 AM »
Thank you so much for the reply and great info :) Thanks Again!

Offline Lou

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2009, 03:10:08 PM »
If you have to put a hood in look into a wall/side mounted fan. You could run it out an exiting window (once removed). It would cut way back on labor cost of the install and you'd be able to take it with you once you decide to move or what ever. :D

Offline pcampbell

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 767
  • Age: 33
  • Location: VT & NJ
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 06:19:40 PM »
You might get away with a small counter top electric oven w/o a hood.  It is all going to depend on your city and their code.
Patrick

Offline locoarts

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2009, 06:32:11 PM »
Yeah thats what I was hoping for... by any chance off hand, is anyone here from Cleveland/Akron Ohio and know the laws? I'll eventually get to that point.. I was hoping possibly someone went through it already. :)

Again all thanks for checking out my topic and adding to it!
 

Offline Trogdor33

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 193
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Michigan
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2009, 11:40:59 PM »
thezaman runs a pizzeria in oberlin. Looks like that is pretty close to your area, you might want to ask him.
For all you non-geeks who may be wondering what the name trogdor is all about, have a look here: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

Offline locoarts

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2009, 02:50:52 PM »
Thanks ;)

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1890
  • Age: 60
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2009, 05:19:03 PM »
i can tell you that if you use gas you will need some type of hood. you may not need an ansel system, unless you put in a fryer,and they are very expensive. a pizzeria can be classified as a bakery which has less extensive laws than an open grill . i think subway gets around all of this by their use of that special turbo oven that coca cola bought them. there is also a fryer out there that is all self contained and you do not need a hood. we are in lorain county and our laws are probanly little different than yours. i use my pizza oven for everything i do. wings, sandwiches , pizza, lasagna etc. if you have questions you can call me . 440 7750118. larry

Offline locoarts

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 01:46:25 PM »
I see my topic is still on page one.. I'm kinda curious IF you got hoods what is the average price on them? Lets say one thats 6ft - 7ft range?

Lets say I find a place without hoods, whats the price? Also where is a place I can go to? Is there a #1 place where most get their hoods buy/ installed?

 :)


Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 02:14:59 PM »
I see my topic is still on page one.. I'm kinda curious IF you got hoods what is the average price on them? Lets say one thats 6ft - 7ft range?

Lets say I find a place without hoods, whats the price? Also where is a place I can go to? Is there a #1 place where most get their hoods buy/ installed?

 :)

You will need to speak with an HVAC contractor...

Offline Fourlix

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 12:31:24 PM »
I am building a pizza and BBQ restaurant here in Silver City, New Mexico.  The Fire Marshall is letting me have my wood fired pizza oven (Emiliomiti) and my electric BBQ oven (Friedrich) outside of the hood because they are vented separately. The pizza oven drafts so perfectly that not a puff of smoke has come out the front, coloring the brick as is so typical. The BBQ oven shuts tight till the end of its 2 hour smoke cycle.  The only things under the hood, with ANSUL system, is the range and an electric charbroiler.  No deep fryers.

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 255
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2010, 11:15:10 AM »
Have you had a fire in that oven with your exhaust hood running yet??

Hopefully you have a make-up air system that you can balance the draw of the exhaust outtake so you do not create a negative pressure situation in your kitchen.
Lately, many states are requiring tempered make-up air, and that can add another $4K to the cost of an existing hood, or you can buy a full new hood system with tempered make-up air, for about the same cost.
What bothers me is that I am required to heat air that will only get sucked out of the hood, the new statutes are basically requiring me to burn fuel to heat the outdoors.
 ::)You think Al Gore had something to do with this so his global warming theory could be supported?? ::)
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline Jackitup

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3715
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hastings, MN
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2010, 12:14:49 PM »
Just to throw my 2c in, it's not just about legal, the codes are there for health reasons most importantly. You don't want to create an ongoing unhealthy environment if not lethal in some cases. Better safe than sorry.
Jon
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 255
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2010, 04:48:00 PM »
The main deciding factor in most parts of the country is "grease laden Vapors" that determines your exhaust hood needs.

This will also dictate fire suppression for the kitchen and different seating amounts get you into fire-sprinkler system needs too.

I just priced out a 10' stainless steel perforated plenum hood, with exhaust fan,ducting in & out, plus a tempered make-up air unit and it was only $6K complete with lighting and baffles. Then you can count on another $1K-$2K for your fire suppression in that hood but that depends on the equipment under it, and the flue length above it.

Pizza ovens do not usually create "grease Laden Vapors" , and you can get self-contained counter-top fryers that also negate an exhaust hood.

A flat-top grill, charbroiler, and in some cases a range will usually require the hood. the best place to determine your needs is the city/county zoning & building inspector, and or the fire marshal.

Shop for hoods, make sure the seller knows your local laws so you do not get in a bind. And make sure the installer knows how to balance the exhaust & make-up air amounts to not create positive or negative pressure in your kitchen or building. that can lead to all sorts of problems like water & furnace heater pilot lights going out from downdrafts down their flue.

I have found many used equipment houses do not deal with hoods much because of the changing laws with make-up air and if you are required to have a short-cycle or perforated plenum unit. Things are changing, and in my state they are going retro on the new laws so everyone will be forced to upgrade to become compliant. No grandfather clauses are allowed here since the change in requirements that happened in 08-2009!! I can name at least 12 restaurant in my area that will need to upgrade their hoods to be in compliance. The rumor is that a manufacturer of hoods has been lobbying to get this change and cost restaurant owners the extra hassle. True? I do not know, but I would not dubt it since the new restaurant biz is falling off nationwide

good luck, if you want, I can send you the info of who I have been working with to get you started for your hood equipment.
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 04:53:16 PM »
The main deciding factor in most parts of the country is "grease laden Vapors" that determines your exhaust hood needs.



Well, that's part of it. You also need some way for the combustion gases to get carried away...Burning fuel produces carbon monoxide, among many other harmful gases...


Offline dms

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 163
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2010, 11:31:09 PM »
Well, that's part of it. You also need some way for the combustion gases to get carried away...Burning fuel produces carbon monoxide, among many other harmful gases...

Well adjusted natural gas appliances don't produce much in the way of CO.  Hood ventilation requirements exceed what's needed for combustion byproduct removal and make up by a couple orders of magnitude.  They're driven by removing smoke and grease. 

Offline locoarts

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2010, 09:20:17 PM »
Thanks Gotrocks! So basically in the $8K -$10K range more or less.. I just wanted someone of a starting point, so when I price I'll get a general feel for these prices.

Offline pizza chief

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Legally - What can you use without Hoods?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2014, 09:51:10 PM »
I saw there were"ductless" self-contained systemswith triple filter, fire supression system all in ne package.  This would be useful for a high-rise type of restaurant space.  I am not sure which cties allows that.