Author Topic: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga  (Read 41854 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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00 Flour
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2005, 12:52:08 PM »
Peter

I would just like to point out that not all the 00 flour are suitable for bread o pizzamaking. the 00 grading, means that is the "smallest" flour you can get from grounding a wheat grain. Some 00 flour may have a W value (an indicator of the strenght of the flour) below 100, which make them unsuitable for bread making. Most all purpose 00 flour have a W of 180 whilst the Caputo pizzeria is a W240-260.

Brandi is not the oldest pizzeria in Naples, but certainly one of the oldest (It surely dates back as far as 1780, but probably is older). Capaso dates back 1750. Port'Alba was open in 1760 and was the first being  transformed in a modern pizzeria in 1830.

Brandi use indeed a starter.

I don't agree that natural leaven are not consistent.  This depend of the type of starter. The best bakery in South Italy, have starters that dates back centuries, and it is the main reasons for their reliability.
I have first seen this difference when I first obtained a starter which was believed to be at least a 200 years old, and I compared to the few starters I had until then used, made with organic grape, raisins, yougurt or even the London SMOG.

Finally, the flavour in the crust may depend from three major components:

-a Starter
-The flour type and the time it was let mature (or ripe)
-the water.





Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2005, 02:23:46 PM »
I had basically three reasons for experimenting with a natural starter.

First, I am extremely fascinated with the fermentation process. In the past, I have made pizzas and doughs very fast (within an hour), and became reasonably familiar with the factors that promote faster fermentation, but I had had little experience with very slow fermentation. Even with a small amount of commercial yeast, the fermentation is unlikely to run to 24-36 hours or more at room temperature. I had seen this with some of the doughs made with certain brands of 00 flour. So, I viewed a natural starter as one way to test much longer fermentation times at room temperature.

Second, it's the taste. I personally don't like strong sourdough flavors in a pizza crust, but I still like the subtler, milder sourdough overtones. A natural starter seemed to me to be about right in that regard.

Third, I wanted to see if it was possible to use a starter, natural or commercial, to flavor a same-day dough to compensate for the lack of a long period of retardation/refrigeration and the byproducts of fermentation that a long period of fermentation/retardation brings. This genesis of this idea came from fellow member Mike (Gils), a former pizza operator. Picking up from Mike's idea, I thought if I could use a starter to convert a recipe such as the Lehmann NY style dough recipe to a same-day dough recipe with many of the benefits of long fermentation times, it might be a good thing to use when it is desired or necessary (as in Snowdy's recent efforts) to make a same-day dough. I know that magic bullets are hard to come by, but if adding a flavor-enhancing starter to a same-day dough resulted in a more flavorful crust, then I would view that as a meritorious finding worthy of use.

To pizzanapoletana: Thank you for clarifying the history of Brandi's and for confirming that Brandi's does in fact use a starter. As to the matter of consistency of a starter, I did not mean to suggest that all starters are inconsistent. I was thinking more of home-made starters like mine, which has only flour, water and Texas wild yeast and is quite immature at this point. I know from my research that there are many reliable starters, one of the most famous of which is the one used to make San Francisco sourdough breads.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:23:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline friz78

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2005, 07:06:25 PM »
Great posts guys.  I hope I didn't come off sounding too narrow minded and bull headed last night with my post regarding starters/bigas.  I must admit, there was some influence of alcohol at the time of my post.  I really enjoyed your post, PFT, in explaining your motivation for using a biga and I think it was very helpful to many of us reading this topic.  You were able to get to the core of the point I was trying to make, but much more effectively - that is that the motivation for using a biga is not based on a desire to produce better texture and spring in your dough, as a biga can't/won't effect those elements nearly as much as things like cooking temperature and hydration %.  Your most recent post clarifies that bigas are added to pizza dough to enhance FLAVOR, for those who desire a different, perhaps stronger flavor from their pizza dough.  This makes alot of sense.  For me, I enjoy the flavor of a pizza dough that is simple and not too complex.  I prefer the emphasis to be on the texture and crumb of the crust, with the flavors being emphasized via the cheese, tomatoes, and other toppings.  Too much flavor in the crust would make the overall flavor of the pizza that much  more complex, and that's probably not what I'm looking for.  For me, the simpler the better when it comes to crust.  A huge breakthrough for me was the addition of malt to the Lehman recipe, which I am quite pleased with.  However, the reason why I am so pleased with the effect that malt has had on the Lehman crust is that it has improved the texture and the crumb, without complicating or sweetening the flavor as far as I can tell.  I do not find this to be the case when using sugar in doughs, as it's sweet taste is apparent in the flavor.  Malt on the other hand, is much more subtle with its flavor, but quite powerful in its positive effect on texture and crumb.

I am somewhat stressed because I will be in NYC on business this week, so my pizza research will have to be squeezed in between business meetings.  Most likely, I will be heading to Patsy's on Tuesday night at a very "off" hour (basically eating a 2nd dinner).  Actually though, that might be a blessing in disguise, as I might get more answers to my questions at off peak hours as opposed to peak times.  Luckily, I get to NYC quite often for business and to visit family, so I won't try to do too much on this trip.  My primary target for sampling and research is Patsy's in East Harlem.

For anyone interested, I would be happy to purchase a Patsy's dough ball and Fed Ex it to you if you are so inclined.  It'll require a bit of work on my part, but I'd be happy to do it for anyone who is interested.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2005, 09:31:30 PM »
Tonight I made the latest Caputo 00 dough and pizza based on the natural Caputo 00 starter. The difference this time is that I used a considerably smaller amount of the Caputo 00 starter and I upped the hydration percentage a bit more, to almost 64%.

The ingredients for the dough this time were as follows: 5.40 oz. Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, 3.45 oz. water (temperature controlled to produce a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F), 3/4 t. salt, 1/2 t. olive oil, and 0.09 oz. of the Caputo 00 natural starter (about 1/2 t.). The amount of the starter was at about the middle of the range of 1-5% of the weight of water as recommended by pizzanapoletana (PN). The dough ball weighed around 8.90 oz., or enough to make a roughly 12-inch pizza. The  processing of the dough was as previously described.

I prepared the dough late at night and left it on my kitchen counter for about 12 hours. I then reshaped the dough--more to see if it was alive than anything else--and left it on the kitchen counter for about an additional 6-7 hours of what PN refers to as "ripening". What was most interesting is that the dough didn't budge at all. It just sat there the whole 18-19 hours without any noticeable rising. It occurred to me that the dough might be dead from the very outset, inasmuch as the starter wasn't particularly active when I used it. But I felt the only way to learn was to forge ahead. I was also mindful of the comment made by PN that the dough shouldn't rise. Further, PN had recommended that a single dough ball not be made, but rather use half his recipe and use any unused dough to make bread. Consequently, I didn't know what to expect. But, from touching the dough, it didn't feel dead.

When the time came to shape the dough, I found it to be soft and easy to handle and stretch. And there was no evidence whatsoever of any overfermentation. However, there were only a few bubbles in the dough once it had been shaped. pft recently asked to see a photo of the dough after it had been formed into a round, and so to oblige I have presented a photo below. Unfortunately, the few bubbles that were formed in the dough are not clearly visible in the photo, and certainly they were nothing like the photo of pft's last effort. The paucity of bubbles in my dough may have been because of the low level of activity in the starter. On the assumption I can get the starter to become more mature and with greater strength, I plan to repeat the experiment to see if those factors yield a different result. But what today's experiment did show is that not much strength of starter is needed, even in the rather minuscule amount used--about 1/2 t.

The photos in the succeeding post are of the finished pizza. The pizza was dressed and baked in the same manner as previously described (using 2 stones and the broiler). The pizza was very good, with softness in the middle of the crust and a nice, chewy and crunchy crust at the rim, with a lot of flavor. There is no doubt in my mind about the added flavor. It was real and pronounced, yet not overwhelming.

I plan to continue with the experimentation. One test I would like to perform is to make a dough ball just like the one I made last night and today but using a small amount of commercial yeast (IDY) as the leavening agent. That way, I hope to be able to make a meaningful comparison between a pizza leavened with a natural starter and one leavened with a commercial starter.

BTW, friz, I got a big kick out of your posts last night. I could just picture you in some sort of disguise snooping around Patsy's pizza baking area trying to coax Patsy's secrets out of its employees. Most of the times I have tried that I have discovered that the workers can hardly speak English and don't have the foggiest idea of what I am talking about :).

Peter


« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:27:08 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2005, 09:35:46 PM »
And the finished pizza and slice.

Peter

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2005, 08:28:15 AM »
Pete-zza,
You have furthered the craft of pizza making once again with your latest effort. Thanks for sharing. I know I learn something new everytime you share. A couple of follow-up questions -

Would it be fair to say that you have experienced a better overall outcome of result with the incorpration of a biga in your recipe?

If so, is the biggest impact on the flavor side, the leavening side, or the crust structure? I would be interested in learning your views on these issues. Also, can we expect you to incorporate the use of malt into your pizza making in the future? I would be particularly interested in how your biga with malt performs. Perhaps you will consider malt when you try a high gluten type recipe.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2005, 04:00:53 PM »
pft,

Overall, I have been quite pleased so far with the use of the Caputo 00 natural starter. What has intrigued me the most is being able to make a dough ball using a small amount of a starter (1/2 t. of the Caputo starter for a single-size pizza dough ball) that is still rather immature and have the dough ball sustain a fermentation period at room temperature for over 18 hours and not overferment. As I indicated previously, the last dough ball did not rise in any noticeable manner over the entire 18+ hour fermentation period, yet produced a tasty crust. That was a big--and pleasant--surprise since I expected to see some sign of leavening taking place in the dough over an 18+ hour time period. So, as long as I am able to sustain my Caputo starter, I suspect I will use it to make the Neapolitan style pizzas. The pizzas I made this past week using the Caputo 00 natural starter were all very good. They were among the best of the Pizza Margherita pizzas I have made.

Yet, there are still a lot of open questions. I don't yet know what the outer limit is (in hours) for the fermentation process at room temperature (especially a seasonally varying one), and I don't yet know the correlation between the amount of starter used and the finished product, in terms of flavor, texture or anything else. I would like to get more bubbling in the dough, but I don't yet know how to achieve that without doing things like adding commercial yeast in a quantity that will guarantee bubbling. In the last experiment, I used the highest hydration percent that I could handle from a dough wetness/stickiness standpoint, but that didn't produce more bubbles. Maybe using more starter, or a more mature one, will do the trick, but I won't know for certain until I actually try those possibilities.

As previously indicated, I would also like to repeat the basic recipe but using commercial yeast, and, for further comparison purposes, I would like to try out another 00 flour, the Bel Aria, in one of my standard 00 dough recipes. In the latter experiment, I would use the double stone/broiler approach to be able to do an apples-to-apples comparison. Both of these experiments should help me put natural starters in a clearer perspective.

In direct answer to one of your questions, I found the Caputo natural starter to have the greatest benefit in terms of flavor in the crust. It was quite nice, with soft sourdough flavor overtones that were complementary to the other flavors of the pizzas rather than overtaking them.

There is nothing that leads me to believe that a natural starter, even the Caputo one I already have on hand, cannot be used with a high-gluten flour, either alone or with your old favorite, the Carnation malted milk. It has been time limitations that have prevented me from doing more with the malted milk, but I see that fellow member Friz has used the malted milk in a Lehmann NY style dough and has even identified the best amount to use (I think it was 2 t. for a 16-inch). Most of the time I have spent on the Lehmann NY style dough recipe has been in adapting the basic recipe to different dough sizes and to different home equipment so that more people will be able to try the recipe. But it has been my intent all along to expand my horizons by trying the malted milk in a Lehmann NY style dough. From my recent experiments with the Caputo 00 starter, it would be a natural progression to try the starter also. Who knows, maybe the Lehmann NY style dough with malted milk and the Caputo 00 (or other) natural starter?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 03:20:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2005, 10:00:50 PM »
Following up on the recent suggestion of fellow member Friz, tonight I repeated the experiment using the Caputo 00 flour and starter but using a commercial yeast (IDY) instead of the Caputo 00 natural starter.

I started the dough late last night and put it on my kitchen countertop to ferment overnight. I tried as much as possible to make the IDY dough ball so that it would approximate as closely as possible the last one I made using the Caputo 00 natural starter. The only significant change I made to the recipe was to use a very small amount of IDY instead of the Caputo 00 starter. I had calculated that the amount of IDY that would be needed would be 0.03-0.05 t. This was too small to measure, so the amount of IDY I used was a very small pinch between the thumb and forefinger. To be sure that such a small amount of IDY would permeate the entire flour mixture and not just a small part of it, I intentionally hydrated the IDY with a small amount of warm water rather than just mixing it in with the flour. The dough was otherwise made the same way as previously described, and the finished dough ball had the same weight as the previous one using the Caputo 00 starter--about 8.85 oz., or enough for a 12-inch pizza.

The dough ball was allowed to rise for 12 hours, during which time the dough noticeably increased in volume--by about half. I then knocked the dough down and let it rise again, this time for an additional 6-7 hours. During the second rise, the dough about doubled in volume. It showed no signs of "over ripening" and it was then shaped. It was soft, a bit moist (it had a high hydration) and easy to shape into a round (12-inch). The dough when shaped had few noticeable bubbles and, unlike the doughs made with the Caputo 00 natural starter, it didn't have a noticeable fermentation odor. The pizza was dressed and baked in the same manner as previously described.

The biggest difference between tonight's experiment and the ones using the Caputo 00 natural starter were in the crust and flavor. The crust from tonight's pizza was thicker and softer, a bit more breadlike and with more body and a more pronounced, chewy rim. However, the flavor was not anywhere near the flavor from using the Caputo 00 natural starter. While I liked the greater thickness of tonight's pizza, overall I preferred the ones made with the Caputo 00 natural starter better because of the more intensified flavor. The comparative results lead me to believe that to increase the crust thickness using a natural starter rather than commercial yeast I may have to have a more potent natural starter or use more of it. That will be the subject of a future experiment.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 10:03:22 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2005, 08:58:52 PM »
Tonight I conducted a further experiment using the Caputo 00 natural starter. In the last test using the same starter, I used a very small amount of the starter, about 1/2 t., a fairly high hydration percent, and a long fermentation (12 hours) followed by a proofing ("ripening") period of 6-7 hours. The purpose of the most recent experiment was to see what would happen if I used considerably more natural starter, an even higher hydration percentage (along the lines of pizzanapoletana's "wet dough"), and even longer fermentation and ripening periods. What I was hoping to achieve was a thicker, more open and airy crumb and rim, while retaining the flavors created through the fermentation and ripening processes.

I started the dough for tonight's pizza last evening. I used the same ingredients in essentially the same quantities as before except that I drastically increased the amount of the Caputo 00 starter from 1/2 t. to 2 1/2 T., I reduced the amount of salt a bit to encourage greater rising of the dough, and I increased the amount of water to the point where the dough was really "wet"--essentially incapable of being handled without completely sticking to my fingers. I theorized that that was most likely the highest hydration level I would ever be able to achieve in a practical sense, and if I were successful using such a high hydration level the finished crust would be more open and airy than I have been able to achieve before.

Unlike the previous experiments using the Caputo natural starter in which the doughs were kneaded completely by hand, the dough for the most recent pizza was kneaded using my food processor. The steps I followed were the same as for hand kneading but using the food processor instead and the slightly different sequences made necessary from using the processor (e.g., the water and starter were added to the flour in the bowl rather than the other way around).

The finished dough was put on my kitchen counter where it remained unmolested for 14 hours. Unlike the dough that I had made using only 1/2 t. of the starter, which did not rise in any noticeable manner during the prolonged fermentation period, the most recent dough rose by about one-half during the 14-hour fermentation period. I punched the dough down and let it rise again for an additional 7 hours. During that time, the dough about doubled in volume. Since the dough was quite wet, I decided to shape it directly on the peel, using enough bench flour on the peel to minimize sticking. By handling the dough gingerly, I somehow managed to shape and stretch the dough to around 12 inches in diameter without the dough sticking to the peel. What I was hoping to see was a lot of bubbles formed in the dough. They weren't there, and I didn't want to wait around for them to appear for fear that the dough would stick to the peel in the meantime. After quickly dressing the pizza, it was baked in the same manner as previously described.

The photos below show the finished product. The crust was thicker, chewier and with a more open and airy crumb than the past experiments, and had a nice flavor. However, I concluded that I actually preferred the thinner versions I had made before, where the crust was more crunchy and flavorful because of the thinness and also the greater degree of browning and carbonization. But one of the key lessons I took away from tonight's experiment is that it is not necessary to use an excessive amount of the natural starter. The dough will have greater volume expansion if more starter rather than less is used, but that doesn't necessarily mean a better tasting crust. In fact, by using a smaller amount of the starter, the fermentation period and the succeeding proofing (ripening) period most likely can be prolonged and result in even greater flavor because of the increased by-products of fermentation. In some respects, this in not unlike what happens when a lot of commercial yeast is used. Consequently, what pizzanapoletana says about creating a dough that hardly rises seems to make good sense.

As for the hydration level, I am inclined to go back to something below the "wet dough" level, but still striving for higher hydration levels. I would also be inclined to go back to the original level of salt. I noticed the difference immediately upon biting into the crust, but by that time it was too late to compensate simply by adding salt to the pizza itself.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:35:09 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2005, 12:14:22 PM »
Last night I made a couple of pizzas using Bel Aria flour and the standard recipe I have been using over the past few years to make a home version of Neapolitan pizza using a standard home oven. The main reason for making the pizzas was to compare them with the ones I recently made using the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 starter. As many readers probably already know, the Bel Aria flour is a low-protein, low-gluten flour--considerably lower than the comparable numbers for the Caputo 00 flour. I suspect also that the Bel Aria flour may have low amylase properties, which may render it less useful for optimum performance for a Neapolitan pizza as might be made in Italy.

The dough ball for each of the pizzas weighed around 8 oz., or enough to make a 10-12-inch pizza. The dough was subjected to a total knead time of 30 minutes in a KA stand mixer at low speed, a first rise at room temperature of 4 hours and a second rise (after being knocked down) of 3 hours, also at room temperature. The dough ingredients were only the Bel Aria 00 flour, salt, IDY and water--no sugar and no oil. Out of curiosity, I also added a bit (about 1 1/2 t.) of Caputo 00 starter, just to see if this would increase the flavor quotient of the finished crust. The dough had a hydration percent of around 63%. When the dough was ready to be shaped, it handled very nicely, with the right combination of elasticity and extensibility. It was dressed and baked in the same manner as with the other pizzas I made and described previously on this thread.

The photos below show the finished product. But this is one of those instances where the photo belies reality. By that I mean the pizza looks better than it actually was. The pizza tasted fine but overall it wasn't as good as those using the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 starter, or even the one made with the Caputo 00 flour and IDY.  Its texture had a nice chew and crunch but it was a bit on the pasty side. Moreover, I couldn't detect any flavor enhancement from using the Caputo 00 starter that I had added to the dough.

I found all of the above to be quite disturbing, since it suggests that the Caputo 00 flour may have significant advantages over the Bel Aria flour for a Neapolitan style pizza, particularly when used with a natural starter. While I am not about to give up on the Bel Aria flour for this application, and plan further experiments with that flour to improve its performance, I would like to avoid having to tell our members that to make a decent Neapolitan style pizza that bears resemblance to the real thing they will have to go out and buy a 55 lb. bag of the Caputo 00 flour, and if they want better flavor, to make or buy a natural starter. Even then, you won't be able to emulate pizzanapoletana's worthy efforts unless you have a wood-burning oven or its equivalent capable of very high bake temperatures. Under these circumstances, what I would like to see is efforts taken to determine how to make passable Neapolitan style pizzas using 00 flours that are readily available to our members (such as the Bel Aria, Delverde, etc.), and using a standard home oven. If pizzanapoletana has ideas or suggestions on how to accomplish this, I am all ears.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:39:50 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2005, 01:26:09 PM »
Sorry to have to read about your disappointing results. Sometimes it just doesn't seem to want to work out.

I'm afraid I won't be much help with non-Caputo 00 experimentation since I still have the better part of 40+ lbs of Caputo sitting in my freezer. I might be reporting on my Caputo Challenge soon if all goes well. If so, I will use this thread to update.

I do have one thought which may be of interest, DC PN mentioned a King Arthur flour called "Special" which he claims is superior to Caputo. I couldn't find it on their web site but it may be worth a look. I'm certain it's available in much smaller quantities.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2005, 06:50:17 PM »
You could add 10-15% of a strong bread flour (No bromated please) to the standard 00 flour. It did work for me in the past here in UK when I could not find proper Pizzeria flours.

I was using a Stong white bread flour (13g preteins) from Allison added to a standard Polselli 00 flour. The results were actually good, but the taste given by the caputo pizzeria is still the best.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2005, 09:05:02 PM »
Pizza Napoletana,

Thank you for the suggestion to combine some bread flour with the Bel Aria 00.

It had occurred to me to combine some of the Caputo 00 flour with the Bel Aria 00 flour. The idea came to me from a conversation I had with the chief pizza maker at Naples 45, a restaurant in NYC that specializes in authentic Neapolitan pizzas (it is also one of the two or three NYC restaurants that has the VPN certification). The last time I saw him, he gave me samples of the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and another Caputo flour that comes in a red bag. I believe the flour in the red bag is lower in protein than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, but I have been unable to confirm that. In any event, the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 apparently blends the two flours (something he apparently learned to do when he grew up in Naples), and suggested that I do the same.

The above aside, one of the positive aspects of a low-protein 00 flour like the Bel Aria 00 flour is that it can be used to make pizzas faster than with any other flour I have tried. In my case, I have been able to make a "Neapolitan style" pizza within an hour, from beginning to end. I often use it to make pizzas with eggs, as a quick breakfast or brunch dish. When I have tried the Caputo 00 flour or any of the well-known domestic flours, the results were not as good as the Bel Aria, quite possibly because the other flours have higher protein and gluten contents. When I tried the Caputo flour in the red bag, it seemed to work better than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, which leads me to believe that the Caputo red is lower in protein/gluten than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Do you know this to be true?

Peter

Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2005, 02:21:22 AM »
if you go to http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flour/professional.php you will be connected to the professional baker section of their web site... there are many informative formulas and conversion as well as spec sheets for all the flours. sir lancelot, sir galahad, king arthur special... the king arthur special flour is very good flour and a good substitution for caputo. however, it is different. they have almost the same absorption qualities, but the caputo stands up to the high heat required to make pizza napoletana better than any of them. the king arthur italian style flour is lower in protein than caputo pizzeria flour. i would guess that is is more similar to the regular 00 flours. the sir lancelot flour makes wonderful new york style dough.... king arthur is a great company. especially their professional division.. their main guy todd bramble is very educated and willing to help people... very good natured person. 

Offline Nathan

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2005, 07:30:33 AM »
Pizza Napoletana,

Thank you for the suggestion to combine some bread flour with the Bel Aria 00.

It had occurred to me to combine some of the Caputo 00 flour with the Bel Aria 00 flour. The idea came to me from a conversation I had with the chief pizza maker at Naples 45, a restaurant in NYC that specializes in authentic Neapolitan pizzas (it is also one of the two or three NYC restaurants that has the VPN certification). The last time I saw him, he gave me samples of the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and another Caputo flour that comes in a red bag. I believe the flour in the red bag is lower in protein than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, but I have been unable to confirm that. In any event, the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 apparently blends the two flours (something he apparently learned to do when he grew up in Naples), and suggested that I do the same.

The above aside, one of the positive aspects of a low-protein 00 flour like the Bel Aria 00 flour is that it can be used to make pizzas faster than with any other flour I have tried. In my case, I have been able to make a "Neapolitan style" pizza within an hour, from beginning to end. I often use it to make pizzas with eggs, as a quick breakfast or brunch dish. When I have tried the Caputo 00 flour or any of the well-known domestic flours, the results were not as good as the Bel Aria, quite possibly because the other flours have higher protein and gluten contents. When I tried the Caputo flour in the red bag, it seemed to work better than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, which leads me to believe that the Caputo red is lower in protein/gluten than the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Do you know this to be true?

Peter


Have you checked their website?

http://www.molinocaputo.it/#
"Pizza with pineapples?  That's a cake."

Offline varasano

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2005, 11:17:33 AM »
The pie I had at Naples 45 was a huge disappointment. My pie is way, way, way better than theirs. So personally, I wouldn't follow the chef's instructions.

Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2005, 11:36:03 AM »
Nathan and Jeff,

Yes, I have been to the Caputo website many times and went again yesterday to check before posting my message to pizzanapoletana, but I couldn't find any specs on the flours.

As you know, pizzas made with 00 flour are quite different from the style of pizza you are making. I believe that Naples 45 is doing all the right things from an authenticity standpoint (including using the right wood-burning ovens and water that mirrors the water of Naples, etc.), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you will like their Neapolitan pizzas better than some other style, including yours. I personally try to compare different 00 pizzas with other 00 pizzas rather than NY style, American style, DiFara hybrid, etc., even though I like all of those styles. I guess I treat Neapolitan pizzas as a genus rather than a species so that I don't end up comparing them with something else.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:43:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline varasano

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2005, 12:17:09 PM »
I gotcha.  But honestly, it's not just the style.  You can have the outward appearance of doing all the right things and still end up with a lame pie.  There are plenty of wood burning brick oven places in Atlanta that make awful pizza.  All 5 of us at Naples 45 looked at each other and said, "All that effort for this?"  It was just lame.  Bland and tasteless.  The crust was not springy. The dough needed salt. The sauce was tasteless.  Maybe we just had a bad day.

By the way, I can report the first halfway descent pizza in Atlanta. WoodFire Grill makes a shitake/onion/leek/balsamic syrup pie that was actually excellent. The crust was not 100% but overall it was really nice. We even got a second pie.  The brick oven is not hot enough, but it was still good.

Jeff

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2005, 06:26:47 PM »
The Caputo Red is actually higher in proteins then the Pizzeria. I report here below their technical characteristics.

00R Reinforced Red

protein 12-13%
Wet Gluten 34-36%
W 270-300
absorption 55-57%
falling number 340-360
p/l 0,5-0,6


00 pizzeria

protein 11,5-12,5
Wet Gluten 32-34
W 240-260
absorption 55-57
Falling number 340-360
p/l 0,5-0,6


Caputo produce the red since 30 years circa whilst started producing the Pizzeria, 20 years ago circa.

The Caputo pizzeria does not need mixing with stronger flour. The mixing tradition started after the Second World War, when they would add some Manitoba flour W400  (max 15%) to their Italian flour (W180).

For what I heard from trustworthy sources, Naples 45 doesn't produce a traditional Neapolitan pizza. The ovens I have seen in the pictures don't seam the right ones.


I don't like just to tell you things, but Peter, just look at the facts and tell me how someone mixing a stronger flour (probably 50-50 like some other not good Neapolitan pizza) with the Caputo already good medium strength flour, and with a low enzyme activity, can produce a light, soft and melting in the mouth pizza. What they do is producing chewing-gum ...

A good pizza shows when it become colds. If stays soft and it is not gummy, it is a good pizza.

The difficulty and superiority of real Neapolitan pizza, is the fact that is soft, light and “melting" even when cold. Trust me it is not hard to make crackers or gummy pizza. The difficulty is to make a traditional pizza napoletana. To understand what I am talking about, you have to taste it.


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2005, 07:31:36 PM »
Everytime someone who really knows how to unlock the secrets of Caputo Pizzeria flour describes the pizza you can make from it, my mouth waters. But I'm cursed over how to create a good tasting pie at home with the tools available to me.

I'm beginning to think that only one type of oven in the world, plus meticulous attention to detail are required to get a great tasting pie. If that's the case, I might as well pack it in and give up.

It would be cheaper for me to buy a plane ticket to Naples and have dinner at the best restaurant in Naples than it would cost me to properly recreate an authentic Neapolitan pie.

Pizza Napoletana, I implore you to describe a method for creating a good tasting Caputo pie based on the assets I have. Specifically:
800 degree grill (with uniform heat)
Caputo based biga
Bufala Mozzarella
San Marzano Tomatoes
Caputo Pizzeria Flour
Pellegrino Water
And one thing you can't measure - The burning desire to learn.

Otherwise I will be relagated to eating bubble gum for the rest of my life.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


 

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