Author Topic: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga  (Read 42741 times)

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Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2005, 10:54:39 PM »
the ovens from naples  are not the right oven for the job. they are from woodstone ovens and can be viewed and spec'd at
http://www.woodstone-corp.com/gallery_tile_naples.htm... they build a good commercial oven, but it does not cook the pizza properly.
Also Naples 45 is a concept owned by a large restaurant group. there is no passion, and the product has been diluted and altered in an attemp to give this place appeal. it is a sad pizza because it is not as good as new york's coal brick oven's and gives true neapolitan pizza a bad name... the are basically making a generic version of the true pizza.. here is their web site if anyone wants to see the menu...
http://www.naples45.com/
they did their homework, then failed in their execution...
ciao

 - ron



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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2005, 12:15:21 AM »
Ron, I was aware that Naples 45 is part of a larger restaurant group, and in such cases I do not expect to see the same level of passion as might exist in a smaller operation where the pressures to produce profits may not be as severe. What I was most interested in was learning about the ingredients and techniques that go into making an authentic Neapolitan pizza. At the time I first visited with the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 all I had to go by was what I had read and the closest ingredients I could find to try to make Neapolitan style pizzas at home. From that initial visit and subsequent visits I was able to get a better feel for the process. I subsequently read that Naples 45 received a magazine award of some kind for its pizzas.

Pizzanapoletana, thanks for providing the information on the Caputo flours. Originally I was led to believe that the Caputo flour in the red bag was a 0 grade flour, but the importer/distributor said that he believed that the flour in the red bag was also a 00 flour, possibly with lower protein content than the Caputo pizzeria flour in the blue bag. If we are talking about the same flours I agree that it wouldn't make much sense to mix the two flours.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:45:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Robin

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2005, 04:49:57 AM »
pizzanapoletana:

I also live in the UK. Can you tell me where I can obtain the Caputo OO pizzeria flour that you use?

Thanks,

Robin

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2005, 07:30:24 AM »
pizzanapoletana:

I also live in the UK. Can you tell me where I can obtain the Caputo OO pizzeria flour that you use?

Thanks,

Robin

www.nifeislife.com, but they only sell the caputo pizzeria to commercial operations in 25kg bags. Also, they only deliver within central London. You need to consider a large order if you would like them to meet your request.

Good luck with that.


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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2005, 09:24:45 PM »
Following up on the recent suggestion of Pizza Napoletana, I decided yesterday to start a dough using a combination of Bel Aria 00 flour and a bread flour, in an effort to increase the protein/gluten levels of the Bel Aria 00 flour to make it more suitable for Neapolitan style pizzas. While I was at it, I also decided to make a dough using a combination of the Bel Aria 00 flour and Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Both doughs incorporated a Caputo 00 natural starter, in amounts at the upper end of the 1-5% range (by weight of water) recommended by pizzanapoletana. pizzanapoletana also recommended using 10-15% of bread flour with the Bel Aria 00 flour. I chose to use the 15% figure for both doughs.

The ingredients for the first pizza were as follows: an 85%/15% blend of Bel Aria 00 flour and King Arthur bread flour (4.60 oz. of Bel Aria 00 flour and 0.80 oz. of King Arthur bread flour), 3.45 oz. water (around 64% hydration), 3/4 t. Sicilian sea salt, 1/2 t. olive oil, and about 3/4 t. Caputo 00 natural starter (about 0.20 oz.). The ingredients for the second pizza were the same as for the first pizza except that the flour blend (also 85%/15%) was Bel Aria flour (4.60 oz.) and Caputo 00 pizzeria flour (0.80 oz.). Both doughs were kneaded entirely by hand, using the basic processing techniques as previously described. The finished dough weights in both cases were around 9 oz., or enough to make two 12-inch pizzas.

Once the kneading of the two doughs was completed, they were lightly coated with olive oil and put into plastic storage bags and set on my kitchen counter at a room temperature of around 65-70 degrees F. Initially, both doughs were in a ball shape, but after several hours they started to slouch into a pancake-like affair. Both dough balls remained on the kitchen counter for 24 hours. I then reshaped the two dough balls and left them out at room temperature (in their storage bags) for another 5 hours (ripening period). So, both dough balls were at room temperature for a total of about 29 hours. During the 5-hour ripening period, the two dough balls slouched again into pancake-shaped disks. It turned out that this behavior was not a deterrent to a successful outcome, and I mention it only so that anyone repeating my experiment is not discouraged in seeing the dough behave that way. One of the things I specifically looked for as I examined the doughs from time to time was the telltale odor of fermentation, like a sourdough smell. At first the odor was faint, but with time intensified.

Both dough balls handled easily when the time came to form them into skins. The dough with the KA bread flour had a surprising amount of elasticity, given the fact that it had remained at room temperature for over 29 hours, but it relaxed as I shaped it and produced a good skin to work with. The dough with the Caputo 00 flour was more extensible than the other dough and also shaped nicely. There were no signs of overfermentation and there was some bubbling of the skins in both cases, but not enough to warrant taking photos. Both skins were dressed in the same manner and baked in the same manner as previously described.

The photos below show the results of tonight's efforts (the first photo is of the Bel Aria 00/KA bread flour pizza and the second photo is of the Bel Aria 00/Caputo 00 pizza). Both pizzas turned out exceptionally well, although I preferred the pizza with the Bel Aria/King Arthur blend. The crust was chewy, with softness in the center and a nice crunch at the rim. And with a ton of flavor--really, really nice but without an overpowering sourdough-like flavor. I would rank the pizza among the best Neapolitan-style pizzas I have made. The other pizza was also very good but the texture of the crust was not quite up to par with the first pizza, even though it had a more airy crust.

But either way, the results indicate that it is possible to use a low-protein 00 flour like the Bel Aria 00 flour together with a commonly available bread flour (such as the KA bread flour) to make a very good, if not excellent, Neapolitan style pizza in a standard home oven. It also means that one need not buy a 55-pound bag of Caputo pizzeria flour, even though it is a good flour, when 1 kg. (2.2 lbs.) bags of Bel Aria 00 flour are available from several sources. One point that should be kept in mind, however, is that I used two pizza stones, one on the bottom rack of my oven, and a second one at the upper rack of my oven directly under the broiler element (both stones were preheated for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F). The second stone was used to create increased top browning of the crust during the final minute or two of baking. However, I believe it is possible to dispense with the upper stone and simply place the pizza for the final minute or two directly under the broiler element. Alternatively, you can put the stone on the middle rack and turn on the broiler for a final few minutes of top cooking.

I'd like to thank pizzanapoletana for his suggestion on how better to use the Bel Aria flour. I think it may open the door more widely to our members to have the experience of trying out Neapolitan style pizzas. Grazie mille, Marco.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:49:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2005, 05:55:29 AM »
You cracked the case. Quickly too. Hearty congratulations are in order.

You really are a pizza detective of the first rank. You leave no aspect of the recipe, dough management or overall technique to chance. It was only a matter of time.

I now feel better about my Caputo investment. There was a period where I almost threw it all in the trash. You have given me the confidence to continue.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2005, 11:46:06 AM »
in amounts at the upper end of the 1-5% range (by weight of flour) recommended by Pizza Napoletana

. Grazie mille, Marco.

Peter


Peter,

Prego e di niente..

The only thing, when I suggest quantity of  starter, I was talking to weight of water. That as you are surely aware it is much less then what you actually used.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:47:26 PM by pizzanapoletana »

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2005, 11:56:23 AM »
Marco,

Thank you for correcting me on the starter ratio. I am so used to using baker's percents in relation to flour that I overlooked what you originally said. I used 3.45 oz. of water, so the amount of starter I should have used should have been in the range of 0.035 oz. at the low end and 0.17 oz. at the upper end. I overshot the upper number but the pizzas turned out fine anyway. So as not to confuse anyone I have corrected my earlier post to indicate the correct ratio.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 12:02:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline friz78

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2005, 12:09:46 PM »
Pete,
Congratulations on a great looking Neapolitan pizza.  I know you have always done good things with the Bel Aria product and preferred it over the Delverde and KA00.  It seems now that you have also found a combination that exceeds your efforts with Caputo. 

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2005, 01:51:10 PM »
friz,

I still have some more experiments in me, but there are two things that stick out when I think about what I have been doing in making the pizzas, especially those using the Caputo 00 natural starter. The first thing is how simple it is to make the pizza dough. Once you have weighed the flour and water and assembled the rest of the ingredients, the processing is simplicity itself and you can just leave the dough on the kitchen countertop for over a day (assuming normal room temperatures) without worrying whether the dough will fail in some respect.

The second thing is the flavor that comes with using the starter. I'm not much given to hyperbole, but the flavor is intense and noticeable, without being overwhelming. It takes a bit of time to make the starter, especially a natural one, but I think any natural starter is likely to work. I don't believe it has to be with the Caputo 00 flour, although if one has the Caputo flour and wants to try to replicate Neapolitan pizza practices as closely as possible, then by all means one should use it. I have been trying to resuscitate some old starters that had become dormant in my refrigerator, and I may try one of them just out of curiosity to see if there is any noticeable difference.

Peter


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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2005, 04:05:06 PM »
My most recent experiment in this series was to try to determine the outside limit of fermentation of a dough using the Caputo 00 flour and natural Caputo 00 starter. I started the dough a couple of nights ago, using the same recipe as reported a few posts ago but using the Caputo 00 flour alone. I kneaded the dough by hand and put it on my kitchen countertop for a long fermentation. The initial fermentation period was around 24 hours, at a room temperature of about 65-70 degrees F. During that time, the dough behaved the same way as past doughs using the Caputo 00 natural starter--the dough slumped into a pancake shape. I reballed the dough and left it on my countertop again, for another 14 or 15 hours, during which the dough slumped again into a pancake shape.

Since a total of almost 39 hours had elapsed, I thought I should attempt to shape the dough and make a pizza. The dough was very soft and tender and somewhat slack and sticky, but not dead. I carefully formed it into a skin about 10-11 inches in diameter. As I was dressing the pizza, I saw that the dough was sticking a bit to my peel. I managed to get the pizza into the oven but the front edge of the dough still clung to the peel, causing a hole about the size of a nickel to be formed in the dough at the front edge. But the entire pizza made it onto the stone and baked in fairly normal fashion (about 6 minutes on the lower stone and about 1-2 minutes on the upper stone under the broiler).

The photo below shows the finished product. It had a nice flavor and texture and was pretty much the equal of many of the other Neapolitan style pizzas I made recently. I concluded that the dough was close to the point of overfermenting. I also concluded that by using a smaller amount of the Caputo 00 natural starter, I might have been able to extend the total fermentation/ripening time beyond 39 hours. This is not necessarily something I may want to do, but I think it does demonstrate that doughs made with a small amount of a natural starter don't tend to run out of steam as fast as doughs using commercial yeast starters, even those with small amounts of commercial yeast.

Peter

Offline jimd

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2005, 04:37:54 PM »
Regarding the "slack" dough experience above, I recently tried taking dough that had been fermenting for a long period of time and appeared to be losing some strength and using the "stretch and fold" method to add more elasticity and structure to the dough without overworking the dough or kneading the dough again. The stretch and fold seems to immediately strengthen the dough and make it more manageable.  I have not noted any negative consequence to the final product---rather, I think it has produced a better dough be eliminating the risk of tearing and of allowing more gas to stay in the ripened dough. Just my two cents. Also, I waited another hour or so after the stretch and fold before shaping the dough.

I do not mean to offend those who know so much already, but if you are new to pizza/dough as I am, I will describe my understanding of strech and fold as follows:

Picture your dough as a clock. Then, staring at 12:00, pull a good piece of the end of the dough out  (stretch) and fold the stretched portion over to the center of the dough. Do this at the two o'clock, four, six, eight and ten o'clock positions. Then turn the dough over so that the "seams" are on the bottom. Try and do this with minimal flour that may be on your work area being incorporated into the dough, as this will leave dry pieces of dough.

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2005, 05:45:34 PM »
jimd,

That's an interesting technique. I have experimented with reballing a dough that seemed a bit over the hill and found that I could rework it after letting it rest for a while. The reworking of the dough seemed to tighten up the gluten structure. I subsequently read that you can speed up the process at this point by putting the reshaped dough in a warm place (like a mildly warm oven), which apparently softens the gluten structure again so that it can be reworked. But I have never heard of your stretch and fold technique. I will have to give it a try sometime. Thanks for mentioning it.

Peter

Offline jimd

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2005, 07:16:18 PM »
Yes, the stretch and fold tecnique is, I think, a relatively new concept to most of us. I have read about it on a site that has many brick oven users, but mostly discusses bread. Apparently, many artisan bakers are moving to this stretch and fold technique nearly exclusively, doing away with most of the traditional kneading. The thought behind this, I understand, is that the stretch and fold results in a dough that is strong but has a less organized gluten structure, resulting in a more open crumb. I have not done enough baking myself to verify this, but I do note that Peter Reinhert now advocates this technique for certain rustic breads.  If you try it, the strengthening of the dough is visible immediately.  I bet a good "google" search would provide lots of reading for anyone who wishes to learn more.

Jim

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2005, 08:23:02 PM »
jimd,

Now I remember. I recall one time when I was at an eGullet thread on baking seeing a lot of discussion on that technique. I hadn't thought to link it to pizza dough making, but maybe it is something for us to think about in the context of hand kneading.

Peter

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2005, 03:25:30 PM »
I am very excited today. I achieved a new first--making a pizza dough/pizza based on using a chef, which is the fancy French term for "old dough". To that end, I believe I may have come as close as I am likely to making a pizza in my humble oven like the ones made by Anthony Mangieri at Una Pizza Napoletana in NYC. The main thing lacking was the wood burning oven. But I used the Caputo 00 flour (which I understand Mangieri uses), a natural Caputo 00 chef (or levain), San Marzano tomatoes (DOP), a fresh fior di latte mozzarella cheese (I know, its not bufala di mozzarella but it was the best I could do), Sicilian sea salt, and a first rate extra-virgin olive oil.

Since I don't have Una Pizza's dough recipe, I used the one recently recommended by pizzanapoletana (Marco), which I scaled down to a single pizza dough ball size of around 9 oz., or enough to make a 12-inch pizza. But instead of using a natural starter, such as the one I have been using recently (the one made from the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour), I used a piece of the dough from the last pizza dough I made from the Caputo 00 flour. I had no idea as to how much I should use, so I simply guessed and took a piece off of the old dough that weighed about 1 oz., or about 10% of the total dough weight of the new dough ball, or about 17% of the weight of flour. I see today that our esteemed new member Barry has used about 20% (by weight of flour) in doughs he has made based on using old dough, or chefs.

To make the new dough using the chef, I simply broke up the chef into very small shreds and dispersed the shreds in with the flour (5.40 oz. of Caputo 00 pizzeria flour) until I could no longer feel them, and then added the water (3.45 oz.). After adding and mixing in the water, I kneaded in the olive oil (1/2 t.), and then the Sicilian sea salt (3/4 t.). I sometimes use an autolyse with Neapolitan style doughs (before adding the oil and salt), but did not do so this time. Once the dough was completely kneaded (entirely by hand), I very lightly oiled it and placed it into a plastic storage bag, which then went onto my kitchen countertop for a nice, long rest at a room temperature of around 65-70 degrees F. I tried to follow Anthony Mangieri's regimen for the dough by allowing it to ferment for about 24 hours, followed by at least 12 more hours of ripening.

During the 24-hour fermentation, the dough behaved exactly like the ones I had made before using the natural Caputo 00 starter in liquid form--it slumped into a pancake-shaped disk. (Remember that Marco's recipe is a high hydration recipe, at about 64%, which, along with all the biochemical activity, might help explain the slumping propensity of my dough ball). At the expiration of the 24-hour period, I reshaped the dough ball and returned it to its home in the plastic storage bag for another 14 or 15 hours, again at room temperature. So the total elapsed time at room temperature, including shaping of the final skin, was close to 39-40 hours.

I had no difficulty whatsoever in handling and shaping the dough. The dough had flattened again during the ripening period and was on the wet side but it showed no obvious signs of overfermentation. I simply pressed the dough out by using my fingers until the skin was around 12 inches in diameter. I dressed and baked the pizza in the same manner as previously described, using the two-stone method.

The finished product was first rate. It was tasty, with subtle flavor overtones of the chef and the many by-products of fermentation, and soft at the center and crispy at the rim (il cornicione). The flavor of the crust was not quite as pronounced as with the liquid natural Caputo 00 starter, but it was quite nice nonetheless.

Maybe I was overcome a bit by having been able to make the pizza in the first place, but I believe it was truly a very good pizza. So, to be able to replicate it again, I saved a piece of the dough from today's pizza dough to be used for another pizza in the near future. Marco or Barry may be able to help me here by telling me how to preserve the new chef. I had read some time ago that chefs are preserved by burying them in flour, which I did.

The photo below shows the finished product.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:56:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2005, 03:33:25 PM »
Well done indeed.

The use of a chef, or old dough, is essentially what I believe bakerboy utilized in his artisan pizzeria. It will be interesting to determine if a chef is the best way to make a great dough. Seems like it at this point.
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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2005, 03:57:33 PM »
pft,

You may recall that pizzanapoletana (Marco) recommended using the liquid natural starter rather than old dough because it is a more direct method. I was just following my nose. I had also wanted to see if I could do what Anthony Mangieri was doing, at least before Marco presented his points of view to Anthony, and to learn something from the exercise. I can also see more clearly now than before the merits of using a natural starter, whether it is a liquid natural starter or a dry one in the form of a chef. The risk of overfermentation seems to be quite low. In the past when I used doughs with commercial yeast and long fermentation times at room temperature, the doughs would never last close to 40 hours. I was lucky to get 10 hours, and that was with minuscule amounts of commercial yeast. I guess it's another example of where Mother Nature seems to know best. I got the same feelings when I used to make sourdough breads. I could never quite get over the idea of the natural beauty and simplicity of making a wonderful tasting bread using only wild yeast, flour, salt and water. I got the same tingling feeling today.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:57:37 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2005, 04:14:54 PM »
Interesting points all. I am beginning to categorize commercial yeast more and more in the category of "Cheat." I do not believe it is necessary at all, and when incorporated you better plan on using the dough quickly. It does add a nice and reliable bubble structure.

My sense on the most efficient way to add natural yeast in a home setting would probably be to use a liquid starter. My reason primarily would be based on the fact that I can maintain a liquid starter for an indefinite period and use at my convenience. A chef seems better suited to a commercial operation where it's consumption is more predictable and immediate. It might not last a week or two in the fridge.

By the way, your effort today is the best looking one out of the group. Isn't that interesting as well?

« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 04:20:15 PM by pftaylor »
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Re: Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2005, 05:02:04 PM »
pft,

I agree with everything you said although I don't know that I would go so far as to refer to commercial yeasts as a "cheat". I recall that Marco said to get rid of our commercial yeast (or something to that effect), but I don't know that I would go so far. But if I was on a deserted island somewhere with wheat, a few stones to crush the wheat, a screen to filter out the bran and wheat germ, sea water, and the capability to make a fire, I think I would be able to make a pretty tasty white flour pizza :). Hmmm, what about toppings >:(?

I might try out a Lehmann NY style dough sometime using a natural starter or a chef, but it would be more to satisfy my curiosity at this point than anything else. I still plan to use IDY for the most part, and as you point out you are more likely to get good bubbling from using a commercial yeast (at least that has been my experience). But the real point is to try to learn as much as we can about all the possibilities, natural and commercial, and to apply what we learn to what we do in a way that satisfies us and gives us pleasure. I am also still curious about the possibilities of using natural starters to improve the flavor imprint of normal pizza crusts, and am likely to explore those possibilities at some point. But there's no denying that natural starters and long fermentations contribute mightily to the crust flavor.

I agree with you that the most recent pizza looks the best. I tried to stretch out the dough more this time, but it is also possible that I may have learned something along the way ;D.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 05:04:52 PM by Pete-zza »