Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 165313 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1100 on: December 28, 2011, 08:24:55 AM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1101 on: December 28, 2011, 08:26:22 AM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1102 on: December 28, 2011, 08:28:21 AM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1103 on: December 28, 2011, 08:30:00 AM »
Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1104 on: December 28, 2011, 02:51:43 PM »
The Mondako flour in the preferment and final dough also made a good pizza, and there were a few minor differences in the texture and crust, but donít think they really made any major differences in the texture, the taste of the crust or anything else.  I now wonder since I have tried KABF, ADM Gigantic bromated flour, Mondako flour and KASL in the preferment Lehmann dough, just how different each pie was.  In my opinion and my taste testers opinions, really there canít be detected hardly any differences in what flours are used.  My taste testers and I would have thought one pizza would be chewier than others, but that doesnít seem to be the case, when using any of the flours I have tried.  It would be interesting to try a lower protein flour in the preferment Lehmann dough to see what would happen at some point in time.  I also want to do an experiment with the Power flour in the next couple of weeks, to see if the Power flour really makes any difference in the preferment Lehmann dough, but from my results so far, really donít see the Power flour making much of any difference either. 

It is hard to detect from the pictures of the preferment Lehmann dough pizza with Mondako flour that Cracker Barrel white very sharp cheddar was the only cheese used to dress this pie, but the grease from using the Cracker Barrel white very sharp cheddar was very good, in my taste testers opinions and my opinion.  The cheese made the pie very greasy, but it was a good taste. 

Norma
In my business, as I've gained knowledge from websites such as this, I have experimented with different flours on my cracker crusts.  We used Mondako for years, not by any particular choice, but because that is what everyone used...and it was supposed to be best for our product.  We've tried different General Mills products as well as different ADM products...I'm talking differing protein percentages and the like.  My final conclusion from all the experimenting was that if one compared one pizza made from each of  different flours, he couldn't tell much of a difference at all........the real difference in the flours shows up at crunch time, in a very busy dinner rush.  For instance, with one flour you might keep a constant temperature in you ovens for months and months, where another flour might cause you to constantly to use your thermostat like a yo yo to get the product you want.....and while the consumer of pizza might not have ever known a change in flour, the oven tender sure did...and he was screaming bloody murder.
Just a thought.
JOhn

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1105 on: December 28, 2011, 03:35:44 PM »
In my business, as I've gained knowledge from websites such as this, I have experimented with different flours on my cracker crusts.  We used Mondako for years, not by any particular choice, but because that is what everyone used...and it was supposed to be best for our product.  We've tried different General Mills products as well as different ADM products...I'm talking differing protein percentages and the like.  My final conclusion from all the experimenting was that if one compared one pizza made from each of  different flours, he couldn't tell much of a difference at all........the real difference in the flours shows up at crunch time, in a very busy dinner rush.  For instance, with one flour you might keep a constant temperature in you ovens for months and months, where another flour might cause you to constantly to use your thermostat like a yo yo to get the product you want.....and while the consumer of pizza might not have ever known a change in flour, the oven tender sure did...and he was screaming bloody murder.
Just a thought.
JOhn

John,

Coming from a seasoned professional pizza operator like you are, I find your comments very interesting.  ;D It seems your final conclusions are in line with mine, in that different flours and protein levels really donít make that big amounts of differences in the final pizza if the formulation still stays the same in just one pizza.  I had thought my taste testers and I had gone nuts in not determining much difference in using different flours in the same formulation.  :-D  Do you think that it is the formulation that someone is using that matters the most, if only making one pizza?  To me, right now it appears that way.  Most members do post that the brand of flour matters in making one pizza, but I now wonder about that.  Sure, there are minor differences in how the rim browns, bottom of the crust browns, and maybe other small differences, but not really in the taste of the final pizza.  Maybe these ideas only are for using a deck oven.  Do you have any ideas on how a deck oven and home oven make differences?

Interesting that you know from experience that where the flour makes the difference is in crunch time.  I didnít know that different flours can make you use the oven thermostat like a yo yo to get the product you want.  Your experience and thoughts are always interesting.  I appreciate you posted your thoughts on my thread.  I always learn from you.  :chef:

Thanks so much!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 03:37:40 PM by norma427 »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1106 on: December 28, 2011, 06:29:14 PM »
John,

Coming from a seasoned professional pizza operator like you are, I find your comments very interesting.  ;D It seems your final conclusions are in line with mine, in that different flours and protein levels really donít make that big amounts of differences in the final pizza if the formulation still stays the same in just one pizza.  I had thought my taste testers and I had gone nuts in not determining much difference in using different flours in the same formulation.  :-D  Do you think that it is the formulation that someone is using that matters the most, if only making one pizza?  To me, right now it appears that way.  Most members do post that the brand of flour matters in making one pizza, but I now wonder about that.  Sure, there are minor differences in how the rim browns, bottom of the crust browns, and maybe other small differences, but not really in the taste of the final pizza.  Maybe these ideas only are for using a deck oven.  Do you have any ideas on how a deck oven and home oven make differences?

Interesting that you know from experience that where the flour makes the difference is in crunch time.  I didnít know that different flours can make you use the oven thermostat like a yo yo to get the product you want.  Your experience and thoughts are always interesting.  I appreciate you posted your thoughts on my thread.  I always learn from you.  :chef:

Thanks so much!  :)

Norma

Norma,
First of all, please note that I based my observations on my particular crust (cracker).  Having said that, of course one will need a specific flour when he gets into Neapolitan, and maybe a particular flour for say a Pan pizza....but, for the rest, can one really tell the difference?  How many stinking variables are there to contend with?..hundreds?  And just what dough procedure does one use...does it change with the flours, does it change with the temperature or humidity.  I'll tell you, I've gone the whole course of dough procedures....I've gone so far as to try and figure the exact correct hydration based on the different lot numbers on flours.  That is how much I wanted to make a consistent product time after time after time.  I've also taken the time to sit and watch my dough mix, minute after minute, until it finally formed a ball..and tried to incorporate this into a process creating consistency.  So, can you imagine then interchanging flours with this mess and trying to determine which is best.  It was only after standardizing the whole process, the same process time after time after time....even, when the flours were obviously changing, that we were able to eliminate inconsistencies in a dough which frankly is very hard to do consistently good. Of course, the observation of baking hundreds and hundreds of pizzas by a couple brothers who really think about what they are doing, is a real life test most don't have the luxery of experiencing...but it's how you learn.  This is the way we learned how different flours command the thermostat in our oven.
As far as deck oven vs home oven...i can only comment on my experiences.  My oven can get up to 610 degrees some days, and by using quarry tiles on the very top rack, my pizzas at home are every bit as good as in my deck...so, I must be lucky to have an oven that gets so hot...though I rarely use it above 580.

Later Norma

john

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1107 on: December 28, 2011, 09:06:08 PM »
Norma,
First of all, please note that I based my observations on my particular crust (cracker).  Having said that, of course one will need a specific flour when he gets into Neapolitan, and maybe a particular flour for say a Pan pizza....but, for the rest, can one really tell the difference?  How many stinking variables are there to contend with?..hundreds?  And just what dough procedure does one use...does it change with the flours, does it change with the temperature or humidity.  I'll tell you, I've gone the whole course of dough procedures....I've gone so far as to try and figure the exact correct hydration based on the different lot numbers on flours.  That is how much I wanted to make a consistent product time after time after time.  I've also taken the time to sit and watch my dough mix, minute after minute, until it finally formed a ball..and tried to incorporate this into a process creating consistency.  So, can you imagine then interchanging flours with this mess and trying to determine which is best.  It was only after standardizing the whole process, the same process time after time after time....even, when the flours were obviously changing, that we were able to eliminate inconsistencies in a dough which frankly is very hard to do consistently good. Of course, the observation of baking hundreds and hundreds of pizzas by a couple brothers who really think about what they are doing, is a real life test most don't have the luxery of experiencing...but it's how you learn.  This is the way we learned how different flours command the thermostat in our oven.
As far as deck oven vs home oven...i can only comment on my experiences.  My oven can get up to 610 degrees some days, and by using quarry tiles on the very top rack, my pizzas at home are every bit as good as in my deck...so, I must be lucky to have an oven that gets so hot...though I rarely use it above 580.

Later Norma

john

John,

I have noted that your observations were for a particular crust (cracker).  I know different types of pizzas could need different flours to be successfully executed. 

Wow, I canít believe all you have gone though to be able to make you product consistent time after time.  I can understand you have put in a lot of time and hard work understanding about all the variables that can go into making your dough and final pizzas.  To do what you have done in nailing the inconsistencies in flours, mixing process, methods used, and baking your pizzas is mind blowing.  I appreciate how you shared how you and your brother learned all of this.  I can only imagine how much hard work you and your brother have put into all what goes into making your pizzas.  Having the advantage of baking hundreds and hundreds of pizza also has its advantages.

Thanks for the comments about your home oven versus a deck oven.

I am only beginning to learn all that can go into making a better pizza.  I try to watch what happens week after week, and although I really donít have any real conclusions, know that a better pizza can be produced but really donít understand what I need to do to produce the better pizza.  I think is it the flour, the mix time, the final dough temperature, the amount of IDY, (or other yeasts that might be used) how my deck oven works in temperatures and bake times, and so many other variables that can go into making just this dough, how am I ever going to be able to understand what really to change. I have noticed when making a preferment for one pizza it will be different than making the preferment in a larger amount, and even the resulting pizzas will be different.  I might not ever know what I can change, but try to understand. 

Thanks for posting all what you have done to make your pizzas better.  I appreciate all your knowledge!  :chef:

Hopefully, someday I will take my pizzas at market up a notch. 

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1108 on: January 01, 2012, 08:56:19 AM »
Norma,
I heard back about the bromated flour. My friend over in the food chem dept wasn't entirely certain (as she described what happened in your photos as "that's weird") but these are the two most likely scenarios she outlined. 1.) The high hydration and the pH of the starter was speeding up the bromate oxidation reaction and was producing some excess water as a byproduct. 2.) She also indicated that ADM Gigantic flour is bleached and the bubbling you experienced could be due to excess hydrogen peroxide formation (H2O2) due to the bleaching agent, the acidity and high water content in the starter. She also had some concerns that the bromate or bleaching may kill off some of the microflora (bacteria) in the starter but wasnít certain. Hope this helps.
Jim
BTW: She did correct my chemical equation, the correct formula for the interaction is:
BrO3− + 6RSH → Br− + 3RSSR + 3H2O
(Where R just means functional group on the two pregluten subunits; SH is the sulfhydro group on each pregluten subunit; and RSSR is where the two subunits join to together via a disulfite bridge to form the gluten molecule; a bromide ion and three molecules of water are produced as byproducts).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 09:07:40 AM by JimmyG »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1109 on: January 01, 2012, 08:58:44 AM »
It looks like everything turned out well in the end. And very tasty looking as well.
Jim
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 09:11:42 AM by JimmyG »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1110 on: January 01, 2012, 09:28:29 AM »
Norma,
I heard back about the bromated flour. My friend over in the food chem dept wasn't entirely certain (as she described what happened in your photos as "that's weird") but these are the two most likely scenarios she outlined. 1.) The high hydration and the pH of the starter was speeding up the bromate oxidation reaction and was producing some excess water as a byproduct. 2.) She also indicated that ADM Gigantic flour is bleached and the bubbling you experienced could be due to excess hydrogen peroxide formation (H2O2) due to the bleaching agent, the acidity and high water content in the starter. She also had some concerns that the bromate or bleaching may kill off some of the microflora (bacteria) in the starter but wasnít certain. Hope this helps.
Jim
BTW: She did correct my chemical equation, the correct formula for the interaction is:
BrO3− + 6RSH → Br− + 3RSSR + 3H2O
(Where R just means functional group on the two pregluten subunits; SH is the sulfhydro group on each pregluten subunit; and RSSR is where the two subunits join to together via a disulfite bridge to form the gluten molecule; a bromide ion and three molecules of water are produced as byproducts).

Jim,

Thanks so much for going to all the trouble and describing to your friend at the food chem. dept. what was going on with the preferments with the ADM Gigantic bromated flour.  :) I appreciate her explanations what were the two most likely scenarios and what she has outlined.  I donít understand anything about chemical equations, but her other explanations are very interesting and well outlined.

Seems like you also have a strong knowledge of chemistry!

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1111 on: January 01, 2012, 09:33:24 AM »
It looks like everything turned out well in the end. And very tasty looking as well.
Jim

Jim,

The final dough with the ADM Gigantic flour and pizzas did turn out okay, but I am back to using KASL again starting this past Friday for market. For some reason the ADM Gigantic flour doesnít perform as well in the preferment Lehmann dough or final pizzas.  I also have two experiments that were started Friday with the preferment Lehmann dough.  The one is with 50/50 Power Flour and Mondako Flour, and the other one is just with the Power flour. 

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1112 on: January 01, 2012, 09:38:43 AM »
Norma,
No problem. YeahĖ my dept really makes us pile on the chemistry. Although this is really the first time have gotten to apply it outside of the human body. Never thought I would be using it to better understand the pizza making process though  :-D.
Jim
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1113 on: January 01, 2012, 09:39:44 AM »
Norma,
What differences are you noticing between the two doughs? I cant wait to hear how the two mixes will preform.
Jim
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1114 on: January 01, 2012, 10:20:56 AM »
Norma,
No problem. YeahĖ my dept really makes us pile on the chemistry. Although this is really the first time have gotten to apply it outside of the human body. Never thought I would be using it to better understand the pizza making process though  :-D.
Jim

Jim,

I donít think I would ever be able to understand chemistry, but think you will be able to apply it to your pizza making process.  All I can do is watch doughs, try different flours and formulations, and wait and see what happens. You have already helped me understand more, with your posts.  Canít wait to see how your chemistry helps you with your doughs and final pizzas.  :)

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1115 on: January 01, 2012, 10:30:14 AM »
Norma,
What differences are you noticing between the two doughs? I cant wait to hear how the two mixes will preform.
Jim

Jim,

The one difference in using the bromated ADM Gigantic flour, at least to me, are the crusts seems to brown a little better.  One of the downsides, at least for me in this dough, is there seems to be more inner crust bubbles inside the rims of the final pizzas.  The pizzas themselves really donít taste any different. 

The experimental pizza made with only the Mondako flour this past week was just an edge better than my regular pizzas made with KASL.  It seemed crisper on the bottom crust and also seemed to brown a little better.  The differences also could have been that the preferment wasnít made in bulk like my regular doughs for market.  There are too many variables to be able to decide what is best, unless two same size batches are tried side by side.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1116 on: January 02, 2012, 07:35:21 PM »
As I had posted before, I starting making the preferment Lehmann dough with KASL again on Friday.  The preferment wasnít the least bit watery today and I did everything the same as I did with the preferment using the ADM Gigantic flour, so it now leads me to believe that Jimís friend at the food chemistry department was right about using the ADM Gigantic flour and my preferment being watery 3 weeks in a row.  There must be something to do with the bromated flour that does something to the preferment.  I could be wrong, but at least right now that is my opinion.

Preferment today with KASL.  The preferment was strong and didnít have any watery substance on the bottom of the container.

Norma


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1117 on: January 04, 2012, 06:45:37 AM »
These are some of the pies made with KASL yesterday.  The dough handled beautifully, and the resulting pies were better looking, compared to the pies made with ADM Gigantic Flour, at least in my opinion. My camera seems to show the rims of pizzas lighter than what they really are, unless I take a close-up picture.  I guess that is because I use a cheaper camera, and donít really take the time to try and get the best shots of different pizzas.  This especially can be seen in the second picture.  Those rims really weren't that much different in the colors.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1118 on: January 04, 2012, 06:47:17 AM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1119 on: January 04, 2012, 06:48:42 AM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1120 on: January 04, 2012, 06:50:35 AM »
This was the pie made with the 50/50 blend of Mondako and Power Flours.  The dough wasnít as easy to handle as the KASL pies, but that could be due to the fact that I mixed the 50/50 blend in my Kitchen Aid mixer instead of the Hobart mixer.  At least that is my guess.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1121 on: January 04, 2012, 06:52:59 AM »
Steve, my taste testers, and I really don't think the 50/50 blend of Mondako Flour and Power flour made a better pizza, at least in the preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1122 on: January 04, 2012, 06:57:45 AM »
This was the pizza made with 100% Power flour.  Like the blend of Mondako and Power flour, this dough wasnít as easy to handle as the doughs made with KASL.  Steve, my taste testers, and I also didnít think the 100% Power flour made a better pizza, than KASL.  This pie was dressed with Steve's November's sauce.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1123 on: January 04, 2012, 06:59:38 AM »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1124 on: January 04, 2012, 07:00:51 AM »
Norma