Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 133687 times)

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Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 02:42:34 PM »
Pete,
Thanks for the info and leads.  I will research those sights later today. 

Thanks,

Bob


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 03:15:56 PM »
As for PMQ think tank, I donít think many members there are using preferments, although I am not sure.

Norma,

It is rare to find discussion on preferments at the PMQTT. Tom Lehmann sometimes tries to introduce PMQTT members to basic preferments but there is usually no response to his posts on the subject. Our members are light years more advanced on the topic. I think it is because we are home pizza makers by and large and don't have to contend with the many challenges in adapting preferment principles to commercial operations where failure can exact a high price, especially for operators who don't really understand the complexities of preferments.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2009, 05:06:27 PM »
In the last few hours I went to PMQTT and typed in the search: Increasing the flavor of dough.  If you go down to the one that reads about increasing the flavor of dough and you will see pizzanerd and there are 162 replies and 11 pages.  I tried to copy the link so if anyone is interested they also could read this whole post and threads, but when I tried to copy and paste on word, it doesn't come up.
I am finding this to be good reading, as it discusses different ways to use a preferment.  I haven't read all of it, but will continue to read.  It is also interesting they tell you to look at pizzamaking.com for more information.  :)
Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2009, 06:49:32 PM »
finally got this link to work if anyone is interested

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4231&hilit

I also found what pizzanerd had wrote interesting.

Dom DeMarco of DiFara's in Brooklyn uses a mix of 00 and high-gluten flours. He once told me that he used 25% 00 flour and 75% high-gluten flour (he tends to favor the All Trumps), both by volume. He bakes the pizzas in a Bakers Pride deck oven.
by pizzanerd

more to come...

Norma
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 07:36:46 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2009, 08:11:41 PM »
Peter,
I took a quick glance at the two links.  To be honest I get a little confused on semantics sometimes.  Is the starter that I created with around 1 cup of KASL, equal grams of water,  & 1 gram of beer yeast a poolish  or a sourdough.  Technically it is commercial yeast but I assume it starts out as a poolish and will develop into a sour dough as it increases in bacteria growth.   I started this concoction based on things that Marco has written.  I may have misunderstood what he wrote, but it seems that what I have, is more of the old mother dough method that the old country used to use.  I thought it would be good because at room temp it makes calculating finished dough temp easy.   I based my first three dough balls on 8% of the flour weight.  According to Marco I should have used 5% of the water weight which would have lowered the criscito to about half.  On another day I then did as he mentioned by adding much more crisito to the bread batch, as Italian bread bakers do.  I used my second dough ball today from the first batch of three using 8% flour weight and it made a nice tomato pie.  I will attach pics and the formula tomorrow.  The dough raised much better on the second pie. 
I will insert Marco's post below this one.  After rereading Marco's post and considering the small amount of criscito I may not add any additional yeast and use a warm ferment instead of a cold one.  Peter, please let me know if I am interpreting Marco correctly.

Hi Pftyalor

Yes I am the same pizza from egullet ;-), well spotted!

Anyway, I 'll try to explain again as I did yesterday, and hope that this time the post doesn't get lost...


First of all some terminology, which will help understand each other:

In Naples when we speak about dough, we relate all the ingredient against the water, as it is the first ingredient that goes into the mixer or the the mixing bowl.

Secondly, we need to distinguish between the mixing method (direct vs indirect) and levening agents (Commercial yeast vs Natural yeast or "CRISCETO" as it is known in Naples).

Poolish, Biga, Pan at l'ancienne, etc, are all indirect mixing method. They consist of premixing a large quantity of flour, water and fermenting agent, which will the be part of the final dough. This preferment, it is responsible of much of the flavour of the final dough, but also, because of some reaction, of a certain crispiness in the final baked product. Under this aspect we should look at the action of enzymes not only for the resulting flavour (as it is only mention in american baking bibliography), but also at the resulting weakening of the gluten and improve digestibility.

When we talk about Starter, natural leaven, wild yeast, we are talking about a microflora of wild yeast and bacteria which strive in a mix of flour and water. A piece of this mix, can be used only  as starter for the next dough when added in minimum ammount or as a preferment, adding also the test of the acidified mix, when added in large ammount.

The old dough method, is a way of using a piece of acidified dough   from the previous batch (thus including salt and usually made with a natural wild yeast starter otherwise doesn't have leavening power). When using a culture strter from another regions, like the Italians one, I strongly reccomend not to use the old dough method, but instead the Mother dough method.
In the mother dough method, a piece of dough made with only water and flour plus the culture starter, is refreshed with a 50% addittin of water and flour, and after is left to ferment for a minimum time of 3-6 hours, a piece is cut off (the dauther) and used as fermenting agent or in large quantity as preferment. This way, thanks to the strong innoculating of the original mother dough into the refreshment, there is a better chance to avoid contaminations.

Having clarified the above, I can now tell you that the main difference in Naples between Pizza dough and Bread dough made both with CRISCETO (WILD YEAST STARTER) is in the ammount of CRISCITO used.
In the pizza dough it has to be minimum, in percentage that vary from 1 to 5% of the water's weight, and it is only needed as fermenting agent, assuring a slow and appropriate fermentation.

When in the previous post, I was talking about the wrong recipe in the booklet, it was because it was developed following the "disciplinare" guideline adapting it from the recipe using commercial yeast. The recipe calls therefore for a large ammount of starter to assure an 8 hrs rise. That is wrong for what I said above and in the previous post.

Now, talking about Una Pizza, I would like to start saying that I admire Mr Mangieri for the passion and effort he is putting in his project. However I have to say that he is a bit still away from the right ancient method of making a neapolitan dough with a natural leavening.

Whilst he is using indeed a starter for his dough, and this is  indeed an ancient method, the process he is using is not right, as it follow some breads technique. I don't like to disclose his methos, as he was kind enough to show it and explain it to me, and on the other hand I also made an effort to explain where it was wrong. It could also be that since my visit in November he has taken my suggestion on board, and have change something in better. However there was a reason for my comment on eGullet.

Pasing on the Caputo flour, I need to know which one are you using. There are several Blue bags made by Caputo, of which one has a pizza picture on it and the label states: "PIZZERIA". Is it this one that you are talking about?

Let me know, and if anybody has any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Ciao

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2009, 07:51:07 AM »
Bob1,
I can see we are both interested in finding answers about preferments.  I appreciate all the information you have given me and also the pictures you have posted.  Reading how your experiments have been progressing is interesting. 
I usually read all the posts from each day if I find time.
I haven't been on this forum for very long.  I only started making pizza in April of this year.  I have posted on other people ideas, pizzas, and different topics.  Usually I try not to ask specific questions on other peoples posts to find the answers I am looking for.  I know sometimes I have what you call hijacked a thread and am guilty by posting something that wasn't relevant to what the topic was originally about.  Usually when you post on a certain topic, either you are looking for answers, finding how other forum users information can help you or congratulating them on their efforts.  I have even asked if one of my posts could be deleted, because after I read what what I had posted, I rethought if I really should have posted it.  Usually if you read a post and have questions about something you are also doing, you should post under your own topic and see if you get answers to your specific questions.  If you look at different topics, sometimes you will see what people refer to as a shattered thread.  This can happen easily.
I don't know if all this makes sense to you or not, but if you want to privately PM me, I will explain in more detail.
Thank for your interest in helping me,
Norma
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2009, 09:57:22 AM »
Norma,
I have been on the site for a couple of years but I have only registered this year. I check posts all day.  I have read about 90% of all the things posted so far and have reread much of that.  Retention becomes a lot harder as we get older.   I also hit PMQ and many other sites.  I find it quite nice how I sat back and watched Peter and others help you develop your business with out asking anything in return.  Unfortunately you do not see to much of that in the world we live in.  I was going to post an apology for possibly hijacking your thread today but was a little busy with work this morning.  I understand what you are trying to say but I thought I was adding info in a different way so you you could experiment in the same direction.  It appeared to me that you had purchased starters and were a little leery on getting started, as I.  I also read the links that you found at PMQ and a lot of them showed how the people were trying out different things.  They have been experimenting for many months.  I misunderstood your thread.  I did not realize that you only do your pizza making at the stand and were looking for a more definitive answer for production purposes.  I thought you were looking to develop something yourself, then try to incorporate it into the Lehman dough for flavor.  Sometimes I guess I lack social grace and I really do apologize.  If you like I will PM you on my results.  I am only about a an 1:15 from your stand and work sometimes gets me in that area.  I almost stopped last summer but got tied up.  In fact, if Fred would have posted his pizza day at his guitar shop a little earlier, we probably would have met there.  I often go there for barbecue sauce.   Once again, I do apologize for any errors in judgment.   I will probably start a thread in starters and post further results there. 

Thanks,

Bob

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2009, 10:19:50 AM »
Bob1,
There is no need to apologize.  You were also helping me in understanding more about preferments.  As I told you in my last post, I have problems with posting in some topics when I get excited what they are talking about.  I know what you are talking about in when we get older, retention becomes harder.  Sometimes I have to reread different things several times before I fully understand.  I also realize how fortunate I am that Peter and so many people have helped me in my business and with recipes at home.  This forum is such a great place for exchanging ideas and learning new information.
I did purchase starters about 5 months ago and thought of trying them, but then thought I needed to do more experimenting with my Lehmann dough before I tried the starters. 
You don't lack social grace..just by you responding to what I wrote tells me you are a very decent person.
You can PM me anytime with your results.  I will be looking for your posts and since I know who you are, that will make it more interesting.
Stop by my stand anytime.  If you want to try some of your dough in my oven, it is fine with me.
After I posted  Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza, I also thought maybe I should have worded my post differently.
Thank you for helping me and I hope we can become friends.
Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2009, 10:24:56 AM »
After reading much material about preferments and using either, poolish, biga, or sponges, I thought I might post on PMQTT and see if anyone had used preferments in a Lehmann dough. I did post a question on PMQTT last night asking about incorporating a preferment into Lehmann Dough.  This is the link to see how  Tom Lehmann answered my question. 

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=56778#p56778

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2009, 12:55:29 PM »
To be honest I get a little confused on semantics sometimes.  Is the starter that I created with around 1 cup of KASL, equal grams of water,  & 1 gram of beer yeast a poolish  or a sourdough.  Technically it is commercial yeast but I assume it starts out as a poolish and will develop into a sour dough as it increases in bacteria growth.

Bob,

There will always be semantics issues with preferments. That is because of the bastardization of the terminology over time. Misuse and abuse of the terminology is much more common among amateurs but some professionals also are guilty of the same offense. I am sure that at one point early in my studies of preferments I was also an offender. However, frustrated by the lack of consistency of the use of the classic terminology for preferments, I decided to become more of a "purist" on the subject. What you described above is a preferment in a classical sense. With equal weights of flour and water and commercial yeast, that preferment would constitute a poolish. In my opinion, it would not under any circumstance be a sourdough culture/preferment. To me, the term "sourdough" connotes wild (natural) yeast. However, having said that, I have seen breads touted as sourdough breads that have no natural yeast. The bread may contain commercial "sours" and other ingredients like lactic acid that are commonly associated with sourdough breads but no wild yeast.

In your case, the only way that I know of to transform your commercially-leavened poolish to a true sourdough format is to let the wild yeast overtake your poolish. In due course, the commercial yeast will die off because it won't be able to survive the acidic environment that develops as the wild yeast take over.

Peter

« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 12:57:18 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2009, 01:39:30 PM »
Thanks Pete,  I will follow it and start a new thread to let you know what I find as at progresses. 

Thanks,

Bob

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2009, 04:57:05 AM »
Okay..I have received this post from Tom Lehmann and am going to proceed from here for the first experiment.

Norma;
Try this;
Take 1/3 of the flour and 0.1% IDY, based on the weight of the flour and adjust the absorption to 50%, based on the weight of the flour. Mix this together for about 5-minutes, and set aside in the cooler to slowly ferment overnight, then add this to the mixing bowl along with the other 2/3 of the flour, the full compliment of IDY and all of the other ingredients you're using. Adjust the total dough absorption to 56% (based on the weight of the 2/3 fresh flour that you're adding at the bowl). Mix the dough just until it comes smooth, then scale, ball, oil, ferment overnight in the cooler and use as needed over the next two days. For a flavor change, you might even consider substututing up to 10% of the water that you add to the 2/3 of the flour with beer.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Now, my next question will be is this a true sponge preferment?   As I understand a sponge as of this moment it is: A sponge starter (preferment) is much like a pancake batter and is made from flour, water and IDY used as the leaven.  Lactobacillus is not present in a sponge. Because of this, sponges do not produce the same results in terms of flavor, texture and keeping qualities as sourdoughs, and are often used in recipes where a lighter texture and milder flavor is desirable. A sponge's  fermentation is measured in hours.

Before I try to calculate for this preferment, I want to make sure I am understanding this method okay.

Norma
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Offline UnConundrum

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2009, 08:23:32 AM »
Norma, while I'll defer to Peter, I think the 50% hydration preferment should be called a "biga."  If it was 100% hydration, I'd call it a "poolish."  A "sponge" is more of an American invention which I would think is somewhere in between, maybe a 75% hydration.  I picture a sponge as the same hydration as the final dough, maybe a little wetter, that has been allowed rise and become "spongy." 

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2009, 08:41:37 AM »
Warren,
Thanks for your reply.  I am trying to read about all these kinds of preferments and the more I read, the more I get puzzled.  ::)  Since you are a great baker, I am sure you already have all this figured out.  I wonder how many people have this same problem when first trying different preferments?  :o
There should be one place you could look that gives simple explanations.
Thanks,
Norma
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Offline koloa101

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2009, 10:33:48 AM »
hello,
preferment poolish is typically equal weights in water and flour with a small percent of yeast proofed at 70 degrees for 12 hours. just take 30-35% of water and flour weight from your pizza recipe and let that be your preferment. after the preferment is done proofing, simply add it to the rest of the flour/water/yeast/salt/oil. do not autolyse the flour and water before adding the poolish or else you wont get a properly mixed dough. give a few folds in the first hour and then allow the dough to nearly double in volume. afterwards divide into pizza balls and allow to proof for additional 30m-1hr, then bake!

the preferment will give a better color and sweeter taste compared to using non preferment method. i followed jeffrey hammelmanns baguette with poolish recipe technique for pizza. i highly recommend his book titled 'bread'.


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2009, 11:03:01 AM »
Tom Lehmann did not name his preferment but I agree with Warren that it most closely resembles a biga.

Since Norma told Tom (at the PMQTT) that she plans to try out his preferment method in the context of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I assume that she intends to do that before considering other alternatives.

I look forward to seeing her conversion of her original Lehmann NY style dough formulation to preferment format with Tom's suggestions incorporated into the dough formulation. If beer is to be used, I think I would incorporate it into the final mix rather than using any part of it in the preferment.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2009, 11:28:46 AM »
Peter and Warren,
Thanks for both of you telling me this closely resembles a biga. 
This preferment will help me understand more about how a biga is used and if it gives me a better crust flavor.
Villa Roma, Bob1 and koloa101, sometime in the future I will try each of your ideas. Right now it all depends how this biga experiment evolves. 
I wonít be trying out the beer right now, either. That will wait until I try out the basic biga.
I will try and work out the conversion from my original Lehmann dough recipe to adding the biga preferment in the next few days.  Will post when I think I have it figured out.
Thanks,
Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2009, 05:52:29 PM »
I thought I would let you know what King Arthur Flour said to me about poolish and biga two days ago.  I had gone on their website and saw you could talk to someone via live.  I did type in my question about what they thought would be a good preferment to achieve a better crust flavor if using KASL.  I had waited for 10 minutes and didn't get a reply, so I wasn't sure if I knew how to use it.  I received this reply the next day though my email.


[kaf #148563] When you were offline (via LivePerson)
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Thank you for your email.  A poolish is 100% hydration using about 1%
yeast to develop flavor.  A poolish is generally 1/3 of the final dough.

A biga is 50-60% hydration using about 1% yeast as well.  A big is
generally about 10-15% of the final dough.

For an in depth study of this topic I suggest Jeff Hamelman's book;
BREAD, A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes.

Please contact me if I may be of further assistance.
Regards,
Frank
King Arthur Flour
Baker's Catalogue, Inc.
1-800-827-6836
bakers@kingarthurflour.com

Did anyone else ever try to contact King Arthur Flour viaLivePerson? 

It is also interesting that they recommend reading BREAD, A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, since Kolia101 also recommended this book.  I guess I should use some of my Christmas money to purchase this book and understand more about bread making and preferments.

Norma
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 05:54:18 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2009, 06:52:13 AM »
Okay..here is my stab at the conversion..I have really wracked my brain..and think all the alive cells are almost all dead..surely am not confident if this is right?????  I am now sure I was not born with the math gene...more common sense, experimental and creativity genes.
Norma

Dough

Flour (100):                       1601.05 g     56.47 oz.    3.53 lbs
Water (56%)                        896.59 g     31.63 oz.    1.98 lbs.
IDY (0.25%)                               4 g 0.14 oz 0.01 lbs. 1.33 tsp 0.44 tbsp.
Salt (1.75%)                            28.02g 0.99 oz. 0.06 lbs 5.84 tsp 1.95 tbsp
Oil (1%)                                  16.01 g 0.56 oz. 0.04 lbs. 3.56 tsp. 1.19 tbsp
Total (159%)                      2545.67 g 89.79 oz. 5.61 lbs. TF=0.08932
Single Ball:                           509.13 g 17.96 oz. 1.12 lbs

used a thickness factor of 0.088
pizza size 16"

Preferment Biga

Flour (100%)            528.85 g 18.65 oz. 1.17 lbs.
Water (50%)             264.42 g 9.33 oz. 0.58 lbs
IDY (0.1%)               0.53 g 0.02 oz 0 lbs 0.18 tsp 0.06 tbsp
Total (150.1%)          793.8g 28 oz 1.75 lbs TF=N/A

entered in dough weight per ball 28 oz. for biga
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 06:53:47 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2009, 09:21:06 AM »
Norma,

Your math looks OK. So, it does appear that you do have the math DNA after all. However, I noticed that in the opening post you used IDY at 0.26% and a thickness factor of 0.10 instead of 0.088. I couldn't tell why you made the changes but there is no reason why you can't transform the original recipe you posted into the Lehmann preferment format, using TF = 0.10. The numbers will change, of course.

I will be anxious to see the results you achieve, with whatever final dough formulation you settle on. I am especially curious to see the degree of extensibility you get using the relatively low hydration values for the biga-like preferment (50%) and the basic dough formulation (56%).

Peter


 

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