Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 155328 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #200 on: February 08, 2010, 06:05:00 PM »
Norma,

Did you use the dough formulation as set forth earlier in this thread at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 ? And what was the prefermentation temperature (80 degrees F?) and the duration of the prefermentation you used this time with your Hatco unit? And what was the water temperature you used to make the poolish?

If you added 0.234 lb. more flour, that would be an extra 3.74 ounces. That would be about 4.2% of the total dough weight given in the above dough formulation. It's hard to say how that disparity came about but you did the proper thing to get the dough to the normal condition. Let's see what you get before trying to do a lot of speculating at this point. This exercise should be useful in telling us what kinds of variations you are likely to experience from week to week should your goal be to use the poolish on an ongoing basis.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #201 on: February 08, 2010, 06:25:02 PM »
Peter,

Yes, I did use the dough formulation in Reply 149.  When making the poolish on Friday I used a water temperature of 80 degrees F, because it was very warm at market.  I didnít take the temperature of the poolish after I had mixed it.  It was left out to ferment and after it became bubbly, then I put it in the deli case.  I didnít use the Hatco unit this week.  I just wanted to see if I would get the same results as last week in doing everything the same. 
The dough was still sticky, but like last week there werenít any problems it forming the dough into balls, after I had added the extra flour. 
Maybe there will have to be another test next week to compare last weeks dough to this weeks and to find out why I had to add more flour. 

Thanks for going over this,

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #202 on: February 08, 2010, 06:34:27 PM »
Norma,

Do you remember the room temperature at market where you made the poolish? And was that poolish a day older than the last one?

Also, when you make your regular Lehmann dough (without any preferments), do you find it necessary to make flour or water adjustments in the mixer bowl?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #203 on: February 08, 2010, 06:57:23 PM »
Peter,

The room temperature was between 70-72 degrees.  The new heater in the ceiling the market had put in wasnít working right and it kept running.  Itís rare for the temperature at market to be this warm on a non market day.  Yes, the poolish was one day older.  Since I had made the mistake the other week in measuring the poolish and ended up with the modified poolish that was made Friday and then remade the classic poolish Saturday.

I never find it necessary to make any water or flour adjustments for my regular Lehmann dough.  It always turns out the same.  The only thing I need to change on the regular Lehmann dough is the water temperature to get the dough between 80-85 degrees.

Norma
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:20:40 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #204 on: February 08, 2010, 07:59:27 PM »
Norma,

Let's stick to our plan and see what you get for results this time. I always try to figure out why things happen even though this time I couldn't see any reason, other than measurement error, for the poolish to end up with about 3.74 ounces more water than called for in the formulation for the poolish. If anything, you might have lost a bit of the water to evaporation. The difference might also have arisen in the addition of flour and/or water as part of the final mix. If you regularly found it necessary to make adjustments in the mixer bowl, that might have explained the difference but that doesn't seem to apply to the latest case.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #205 on: February 08, 2010, 08:28:26 PM »

Let's stick to our plan and see what you get for results this time. I always try to figure out why things happen even though this time I couldn't see any reason, other than measurement error, for the poolish to end up with about 3.74 ounces more water than called for in the formulation for the poolish. If anything, you might have lost a bit of the water to evaporation. The difference might also have arisen in the addition of flour and/or water as part of the final mix. If you regularly found it necessary to make adjustments in the mixer bowl, that might have explained the difference but that doesn't seem to apply to the latest case.

Peter,

I will stick with the plan and see what kind of results are achieved.  I also try to figure out what I might be doing wrong.  That is why last week after thinking about the poolish and how it was supposed to look, I figured I must have done something wrong.  Then I went ahead and made another poolish.  The only thing I did was open a new bag of flour for the final dough.  I sure donít think that made any difference.
I can see how I made measurement errors the other week.. Since I weighed the ingredients two times and the ingredients were in different containers this week, it has me guessing. You just never know until you try again and then see what might have happened. 
I will make the classic poolish again next week and then might see what could have happened.
I will explain how the final dough works out tomorrow.  We have a winter storm warning for sometime in the pm tomorrow and the storm is supposed to last until sometime Wednesday.  Maybe market day will be over earlier.  When there is bad weather, usually market stand holders go home early if the roads get too bad.  The back roads still arenít the best here, so more snow will only make things worse.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #206 on: February 08, 2010, 08:41:40 PM »
Norma,

It is possible that using fresh flour might have played a role in the dough wetness your experienced, because the new flour may have had a higher moisture content than your older flour, but with 41.36 ounces of flour added in the final mix, I don't think it should have had a material impact. Maybe there are also some humidity effects. The other possible explanation that we didn't consider is that your last poolish was off and that the most recent one is entirely correct ;D.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #207 on: February 08, 2010, 08:55:36 PM »

The other possible explanation that we didn't consider is that your last poolish was off and that the most recent one is entirely correct ;D.

Peter

Peter,

O please..not another consideration of wrong measurements..lol..will see what happens tomorrow.  ::)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #208 on: February 09, 2010, 07:48:58 PM »
The classic poolish mixed with the final Lehmann dough, worked out well today.  :)  I really like how this dough handles and also how the crust tastes.  If I can make this formula consistently, I am sure I want to change to this new formula with preferment for the Lehmann  dough. Even with the extra work to prepare the poolish and then to mix into final dough, I think the it would be worth the extra work.  I think this formula works well with KASL.
The dough is so soft and can be easily opened.  Even the aroma of the dough balls are different and I like the aroma.  The finished pizza crust does have a better crust flavor in my opinion.  I used all 5 of the test dough balls today.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #209 on: February 09, 2010, 07:50:36 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #210 on: February 09, 2010, 08:00:25 PM »
Norma,

Congratulations. The pizzas look great. It looks like the dough formulation can tolerate some variation without adversely affecting the outcome.

What is next on the agenda? To try a Hatco poolish for another small dough batch?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #211 on: February 09, 2010, 08:13:20 PM »
Norma,

Congratulations. The pizzas look great. It looks like the dough formulation can tolerate some variation without adversely affecting the outcome.

What is next on the agenda? To try a Hatco poolish for another small dough batch?

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the congratulations.  I guess you are right in saying the dough formulation can tolerate changes.  It didn't appear to have any adverse effects on the dough made this week. 

I would like to try the Hatco poolish if I can get the Hatco merchandiser out of the tool shed with the bag wagon and get it into my van. The merchandiser is heavy, so I will need help in getting it around to the van. There is a big snow storm here right now and it all depends on if I can get the Hatco merchandiser to market by Friday.  This is plan A.

If I can't get it there by Friday, I will have to go for plan B.  That is make the poolish the same way I did this week and then maybe by next week go back to plan A.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #212 on: February 09, 2010, 09:53:58 PM »
Norma -

They look delicious.  Nice blistering on the cornicione and perfect char underneath!  Did the crust flavor live up to its appearance?
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #213 on: February 09, 2010, 10:07:49 PM »
Norma -

They look delicious.  Nice blistering on the cornicione and perfect char underneath!  Did the crust flavor live up to its appearance?

Glutenboy,

Thanks for saying they look delicious.  :)   The crust flavor is much better in my opinion, than the regular Lehmann dough I was using.  I can compare this crust to other doughs I had made before, some that went to 8 days fermentation or even dough I had left in the deli case and then one of the doughs that looked like it wasn't suitable for use. 

Even with using KASL, the crust seemed to have enough color.

I still can't see how Peter came up with this formulation, but for me the poolish is the key to this forumla's success. 

I will do more tests and see if anything needs to be changed.  Right now I don't see the need to change anything.

I wonder if Peter is going to try his own formula and see what kind of results he gets?   ::)

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #214 on: February 10, 2010, 10:33:21 AM »
I wonder if Peter is going to try his own formula and see what kind of results he gets?   ::)

Norma,

That is quite possible. However, since I now know that what you tried works, I think I would try to push the envelope further, like subjecting more of the formula flour to the poolish prefermentation process. I might even think about using some diastatic malt to increase the enzyme activity to get more residual sugar for crust coloration purposes.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 01:46:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #215 on: February 10, 2010, 10:59:31 AM »
   


I think I would try to push the envelope further, like subjecting more of the formula flour to the poolish prefermentation process, for example, to about 75% of the formula flour rather than about 53% where it now stands. I might even think about using some diastatic malt to increase the enzyme activity to get more residual sugar for crust coloration purposes.

Peter


Peter,

It would be interesting to see what results you get if you decide to subject more of the formula flour to the poolish prefermentation process. 

I know my camera isnít the best and doesnít always reflect what the true colors are of the pizza and of course I am not the best photographer, but do you think at this point I should consider adding some diastatic  malt for crust coloration? Or is it something that should be tried farther down the line?

Thanks,

Norma
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 11:02:36 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #216 on: February 10, 2010, 11:24:26 AM »
I know my camera isnít the best and doesnít always reflect what the true colors are of the pizza and of course I am not the best photographer, but do you think at this point I should consider adding some diastatic  malt for crust coloration? Or is it something that should be tried farther down the line?

Norma,

No, at this point I think I would stick with your plan, which is to use the Hatco unit for the next small dough batch if you can get the unit to market. If that isn't possible, you could try a small dough batch using some diastatic malt. Remember, however, that you are selling primarily slices. If you look at NY street pizzas sometime when you are in NYC you see that most of the slice joints don't have dark, charred crusts like most of our members like. The crusts are sometimes almost white. But, once the slices are reheated, they develop more crust color. I don't know if that has been your experience with your particular oven, but, if so, you might not want too much crust color coming out of your oven. But that is just my opinion based on my experience at home where I don't go overboard with the initial bake to get more color because I know that I am going to be reheating most of the slices as leftovers in my toaster oven.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #217 on: February 10, 2010, 12:24:35 PM »
Norma,

No, at this point I think I would stick with your plan, which is to use the Hatco unit for the next small dough batch if you can get the unit to market. If that isn't possible, you could try a small dough batch using some diastatic malt. Remember, however, that you are selling primarily slices. If you look at NY street pizzas sometime when you are in NYC you see that most of the slice joints don't have dark, charred crusts like most of our members like.

Peter

Peter and anyone who is following this thread,

As of around 10:00 this morning here is a picture of how much snow we are getting.  Right now we are having blizzard conditions and the Governor of our State has put us in a state of emergency.  I think for this week, there is no way I am going to be able to take the Hatco Merchandiser over to market.  This snow will probably take a long while to shovel or plow.  I will just make the classic poolish and incorporate into the final dough on Monday.  They are calling for more snow on Monday and Tuesday.  Who knows what will happen until then.  :-\  I don't have any diastatic malt right now, so I will post on what I did by Monday.

Thanks for your advise,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #218 on: February 11, 2010, 08:51:22 AM »
Remember, however, that you are selling primarily slices. If you look at NY street pizzas sometime when you are in NYC you see that most of the slice joints don't have dark, charred crusts like most of our members like. The crusts are sometimes almost white. But, once the slices are reheated, they develop more crust color. I don't know if that has been your experience with your particular oven, but, if so, you might not want too much crust color coming out of your oven. But that is just my opinion based on my experience at home where I don't go overboard with the initial bake to get more color because I know that I am going to be reheating most of the slices as leftovers in my toaster oven.

Peter

As much as I revere just about every aspect of NYC pizza-dom, re-heating pizzas seems to be one area where an overwhelming number of great pizzerias drop the ball. It's an achilles heel, imo. Crust is so vital to great pizza and so complex that it's easy to overlook cheese's simple needs.  Beyond choosing a quality mozz, the most important aspect of cheese is that it has to be cooked properly. Unless cheese is bubbled and lightly browned, it will not give off it's full flavor/buttery goodness. Most people get this, but not all. Taking mozz only to the melting point is one of the biggest cardinal sins in pizza making.  I can't tell you how many empty pizzerias I've walked past in midtown/upper Manhattan that have pies sitting out with listless pale cheese. It's depressing.  Even great pizzerias will bubble and brown their whole pies, only to completely disrespect the cheese on their slice pies thinking they can make up for it on the re-heat. This thinking is completely off base. Although one can give the crust some color on a re-heat, if the cheese wasn't cooked properly on the first go, it will never bubble and brown correctly when re-warmed.  Without the steam in the dough from the initial baking, the cheese never gets enough bottom heat to bubble.

The other aspect of the re-heating fail is the propensity to re-heat slices to mouth burning levels. Out of the hundreds of pizzerias that I've had slices at, I've never had a pizzaiolo, on their own accord, take a slice out of the oven before it was napalm hot.  Every single time I have to get their attention and tell them the slice is ready.

So, summing up. On slice pies- cook your cheese.  If this means charring or lots of crust color, fine, just make sure the cheese is bubbling and lightly browned. And on the re-heat... less is more. Warm it a few seconds, don't bake the living daylights out of it. Yes, I am breaking with tradition here, but I think these particular traditions (undercooked slice cheese and napalm re-heats) need to be questioned.

Oh, and this rant is directed to pizza makers in general. Not you Norma.  Your pies/cheese looks right on the money.

And I'm sorry to hear about your snow troubles. We got about 8 inches where we are and that made for a lot of snow shoveling misery (this batch was especially wet/heavy this time), but that's child play compared to what you're suffering through.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 08:59:52 AM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #219 on: February 11, 2010, 09:36:24 AM »
scott123,

Thanks for saying about our snow troubles.  Here is a picture this morning of the back tool shed and just from shoveling snow from the back.  Another from the other shed where the snow blower is..LOL, it is going to take awhile just to get to it. 

As for what you are saying about baking the cheese and also keeping the slices and reheating them.  In my case I have a heated, revolving, humidified case that can keep three pies up to temperature and humidified after baking.  I only hold the pizza for so long because the pizza can get dried out even with humidity.  Usually the slices sell before the hold time.  In some instances I just give any slices away to other stand holders.  That doesnít happen too often.  I do reheat the individual slices in the deck oven if someone wants it reheated.  In my opinion the slices are almost the same as when finished baking.  The only thing the heated merchandiser does is make the crust softer.  Some people like a soft crust and only want the pizza warm, not reheated. 

The third picture is of my stand.  You can see the heated merchandiser.

These are just things I do after making the pizza.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #220 on: February 11, 2010, 09:39:59 AM »
Love the Elmo on your counter (and so would my daughter)  ;)  :-D
Let them eat pizza.

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #221 on: February 11, 2010, 09:42:29 AM »
Norma, like I said, my rant wasn't directed at you.  It was just one of those things that I needed to get out. ;D

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #222 on: February 11, 2010, 09:50:30 AM »
Mad_Ernie,

Thanks for saying you like the Singing Elmo.  :)  Children are really wild about him and also, adults.  I purchased him on Ebay for 4.00, quite a buy.  He even has a singing pizza that moves his mouth and eyes when he sings. 

Norma

scott123,

I didn't take your cheese and oven heating directed at me.  :)  I just wanted to let you know what I do.  I sure am not an expert, as I am sure other pizza operators aren't either.  I just try to find the best way to try things.  I can get quite complicated in knowing what the best ways to make a pizza in a commercial setting can be.  ::)

Thanks,

Norma
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:29:46 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #223 on: February 11, 2010, 10:15:28 AM »
Mad_Ernie,

Here is a link to the singing Elmo and pizza.  Your daughter can watch Elmo and his pizza sing.  :)



Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #224 on: February 15, 2010, 08:01:28 AM »



Peter,

I would like to ask a few questions about using the preferment poolish and final dough.  It is supposed to snow here later today and maybe some tomorrow.  I am undecided if I am going to incorporate the poolish into the final dough today.  I have to decide if I think there will be enough people at market tomorrow, for me to make my regular Lehmann dough and sauce.  Last week because of the predicted big snow, market was really slow.  When the weather men predict snow, that usually keeps people away from market. 
The questions I want to ask you is if I donít make the final dough with the preferment today, can I bring the poolish home and just make a single batch of dough here at home and see what kind of results I get?  Do you have a formula worked out for a single dough ball using the preferment poolish?  Would you advise to just go ahead and make the final dough and if needed, freeze the dough balls?

Since it will be Fastnacht Day here tomorrow, that usually brings out a lot of people to market.  Many bakeries sell the Fasnachtís here.  Fastnacht Day is a tradition here in Pa. Dutch Country.  If anyone is following this thread, this day is celebrated on the day before Ash Wednesday, which is the last Tuesday before Lent.  The tradition were originally made as a way to empty the pantry of lard, sugar, fat, and butter. 

If any one is interested in seeing what Fastnacht Day here is, here are two links.


http://winter-recipes.suite101.com/article.cfm/fastnacht_day

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art8521.asp

Thanks,

Norma
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 08:53:44 AM by norma427 »
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