Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 166509 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #225 on: February 15, 2010, 10:08:37 AM »
Norma,

There is no reason that I can see why you shouldn't be able to make just one 16" pizza using the poolish you have made. The way you would come up with the ingredients would be to go to Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 and divide everything by five. However, since there may be others who may be interested in the dough formulation of just one 16" pizza, I have set forth the details below, as follows:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (for a single 16" pizza)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
310.16 g  |  10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs
189.2 g  |  6.67 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.08932
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for one dough ball for a single 16" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp (this is a bit less than 3/32 t.)
151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
234.5 g  |  8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs
113.54 g  |  4 oz | 0.25 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs

For future reference, you may want to double check my math to be sure that it is correct.

In your case, to make one dough ball you should use 151.55 grams of your poolish quantity and add the remaining ingredients as specified above under the Final Mix.

Your single dough ball test should be a good one to see how the dough recipe stands up to scaling down to that size. So, I look forward to your results. However, should you reconsider and decide to make the full dough batch and freeze the dough balls, I think that should work too. However, since there can be no fermentation for the dough balls while frozen, you will have to allow enough time in advance of use to recover the loss of fermentation. There is also no reason why you can't do both. You can use one dough ball and freeze the rest.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 11:15:30 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #226 on: February 15, 2010, 10:42:26 AM »
Peter,

Thank you for your advise.  Your information for other members or guests that might want to try this preferment with the poolish and final dough will be helpful if they decide to try it.
I had another member PM me about not understanding how the poolish should be mixed.  I answered them with the post of old criter and then the dough formulation you had given.  I also told them I didnít really know how to scale this recipe down, but since you have just given the easy way of dividing by 5, I donít know why I didnít think about that before. 

I will see what happens today.  My mother was at our home last night for dinner.  She had a spell that she didnít know what she was doing and when my daughter and I tried to help her to the couch she just buckled over and we had to put her on the floor.  I called 911, but by that time she came to.  She is an independent person and didnít want the ambulance.  I am taking her to the doctors soon to see what might be wrong.  She is feeling okay now, but this concerns me.  It all depends on what the doctor says this morning.  It will depend on if the doctor thinks she needs more tests if I can get market ready today.

I will post later today on what I decided to do about the preferment with the poolish and the final dough.  It would be interesting to see what would happen with one dough ball at home and one frozen.

I donít think I have to check your math, it mine that sometimes gets mixed up.  ::)

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #227 on: February 15, 2010, 11:21:23 AM »
I had another member PM me about not understanding how the poolish should be mixed.  I answered them with the post of old criter and then the dough formulation you had given.

Norma,

I hope that all turns out well for your mother.

With respect to the poolish question, the way that I prepare my poolish is to mix the yeast (if IDY) directly in with the poolish flour, add the poolish water to a bowl, and gradually mix in the flour/IDY mix. If the amount of the poolish is small, I just use a plastic or other mixing bowl and either whisk in the flour/IDY or use a sturdy wooden spoon to mix everything. I add the flour/IDY gradually so that the flour is hydrated more effectively. For a much larger amount of poolish that can't easily be done as I just described, I would use a stand mixer, using the flat beater attachment at low speed. If I am using ADY instead of IDY, I use a portion of the poolish water at around 105 degrees F and rehydrate the ADY for about 10 minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the poolish water in the bowl.

In my view, one of the most significant factors that comes into play with poolish and that one must deal with effectively to achieve the desired results is temperature. In my opinion, that is the biggest elephant in the room. If the room where the poolish is to preferment is cool, as is very often the case in winter, even in Texas where I am, then it will take considerably longer for the poolish to reach the same stage as it would in a warmer room. Even if one uses very warm water to make the poolish to speed up the prefermentation process, that water shouldn't be so warm as to harm the yeast, say, above around 120-130 degrees F. But even with the poolish water at 120-130 degrees F, the poolish will cool down and approach room temperature over time. As an example based on my experience, a poolish using water at around 105 degrees F and starting out at around 82 degrees F (finished poolish temperature) and subjected to a room temperature of around 65 degrees F, will drop to about 72 degrees F in the course of an hour. It will drop to around 67 degrees F after 4 hours. Under these conditions, you are not likely to see a lot of bubbles in the poolish. If the poolish also happens to be cool at the time of the final mix, then that will slow down the rest of the fermentation process also unless other steps are taken to try to compensate for the cooling effects of the poolish. The only way to get around the issue of temperature without changing other parameters is to use a proofing box or some equivalent. In your case, it might be your Hatco unit.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #228 on: February 15, 2010, 06:27:33 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for explaining how you mix the poolish.  I can understand how you are explaining getting the poolish to bubble at different room temperatures.  Since market temperatures do vary greatly, there are those problems.  I have been using the disk heater and it seems to be doing well with the poolish, but since this poolish is only a small amount, hopefully when I get the Hatco merchandiser over to market, I will be able to test how the poolish works in that.  I think the Hatco merchandiser is a good piece of equipment and I had bought from craigslist at a Kentucky Fried Chicken place.  It seems like they had so much equipment they didnít use.  I only paid 125.00 for it and had planned on keeping the wings I made to display.  Since the wings didnít work out, I had an extra piece of equipment.  Maybe it will work for the poolish.  Since it is also humidified if wanted, do you think there would be any advantage to using that?  I think it would act something like a sauna. 
The poolish I made at market on Friday took about 3 hours to bubble enough. I did add water that was 120 degrees F.  I didnít need to add any extra flour today, so something must have been wrong with my measurements last week.  I added two pictures from today.  The one shows the finished dough temperature.  The other shows the finished dough ball and behind it can be seen what the temperature at market was today. 
                  
Thanks for saying you hope things work out well with my mother.  I didnít have time to make my regular dough today and am not sure if I am going to market tomorrow.  I did bring the dough home today that was for the 5 test doughs.  If I donít go to market tomorrow I will try one dough ball at home and freeze the other four.  At least they will have some time to cold ferment.

If the weather isnít too bad tomorrow, I might need to make an emergency dough.
                                 
Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #229 on: February 15, 2010, 07:31:11 PM »
Norma,

Over the last few days I conducted a Lehmann/poolish experiment. I am scheduled to be out of town for a few days so I can't provide all of the details now but I plan to provide more detail when I return, quite possibly at the Lehmann thread. However, I used the same Lehmann dough formulation you have been using for your poolish experiments but with several modifications on the poolish side. To summarize, I subjected as much of the total formula flour to the prefermentation process as possible while staying within the classic definition of a poolish, I prefermented the poolish strictly at my local room temperature (which is in the 60s), I added a heavy dose of diastatic malt (considerably above the recommended amount), and I fermented the final dough into which the poolish was incorporated for about 48 hours in my refrigerator. The dough remained at a cool temperature during tempering (again in the 60s), following which it was shaped into a skin, dressed and baked. The photo below is representative of the finished pizza. I thought the pizza turned out quite well but I believe there is room for improvement based on what I learned from the experiment.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 09:29:21 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #230 on: February 15, 2010, 07:53:32 PM »
Peter,

Wow..your pizza looks delicious!  ;D  I think you are really on to something great with your ideas for preferments with the Lehmann dough.  I would be interested in the taste of your crust.  I see you have added the diastatic malt.  Since you prefermented the poolish strictly at room temperature and it was cool, how long did your poolish take to bubble?  I will await your details.  They should really be interesting. 

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #231 on: February 15, 2010, 08:21:26 PM »
Norma,

Thank you.

Although I used warm water at around 105 degrees F to prepare the poolish, I knew that I shouldn't expect much bubbling after a few hours at my room temperature this time of year. In my case, the poolish prefermented at a room temperature of around 65 degrees F for four hours, during which time the temperature of the poolish dropped in the direction of the room temperature. Rather than letting it work longer, I decided instead to put the poolish into my refrigerator for further development. I didn't mention it earlier, but I held the poolish in my refrigerator for 3 days. During that time, there was volume expansion of the poolish and a few more bubbles but not in great profusion. The photo below shows the poolish after the four hour prefermentation period. I did not take a photo of the poolish at the point where I took it out of the refrigerator to incorporate into the final mix.

I did the "cool" poolish experiment to see how much it penalizes the final crust. There is a penalty in my opinion, mainly in terms of crust flavor. I think "warm" is the better way to go.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #232 on: February 15, 2010, 08:51:16 PM »

I did the "cool" poolish experiment to see how much it penalizes the final crust. There is a penalty in my opinion, mainly in terms of crust flavor. I think "warm" is the better way to go.

Peter

Peter,

Each time before I mixed the poolish into the final dough, I let the poolish in front of the disk heater while I was mixing dough or doing other things.  The poolish did bubble more in that amount of time. I was worried maybe the poolish would start to fall, but it never got to that point. 
I will see what you post later about your experiment with the preferment with your poolish and your final dough formulas.
Thanks for posting the picture of how your poolish looked. It's also good to see you tried out your idea.  :)

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #233 on: February 15, 2010, 10:42:21 PM »
Peter -

The lovely browning is matched only by your perfect pepperoni coverage.  ;D  Seriously, that's a really nice golden brown.  Flavorful?
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #234 on: February 15, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »
Norma,

I've been getting some pretty good results using a preferment with the method I described here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.0.html It generally bakes up nicely, and I've been very happy with the flavor and texture - some spurious results, but I'm learning.

I've been using Ischia culture in the preferment (I'll use the word "preferment" to make sure I don't incorrectly use the word "poolish." I can't say I'm fully fluent in the technical specifications of the different varieties, but I'm fascinated by this and like you trying to learn more). I see no reason why this method couldn't be easily adapted to IDY/ADY.  I use water straight out of the tap (RO filtration) which is usually mid-60's. My room temperature is usually around 72F but it's been bloody cold here recently (40F outside - 68F room temp), and I can definitely see a reduction in activity. In addition to experimenting with increased culture % to combat the cold, I've been putting my preferment in the the oven with the light on (90F) for ~4 hours before mixing the final dough. The increase in activity during that time is very noticeable. I can't say I can tell much difference in the final product between the preferment at 24 hours at 72F and that at 20 hours at 68F with the bump up to 90F for the final 4 hours. In fact, I've had some unpredictable results from both - most noteably in terms of speed the final dough rises at a constant temperature, and the extensibility of the final dough.

The preferment makes up about 25% of the total dough by weight. This is the result of trying to replicate the UPN dough from the videos, however, I have done some experimentation with taking the % up higher, and I was not happy with the results. I didn't care for the feel of the final dough. I didn't care for how it handled - less extensible, more prone to having thin spots when opened, and I thought it was tougher and more bread-like when baked. Perhaps this is a function of the sourdough yeast and results with commercial results would be different. I'll be excited to see what you learn.

Below are a couple pictures of my preferment just before incorporating into the final dough and some recent pies made with this method.

Craig
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 11:21:25 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #235 on: February 16, 2010, 06:28:06 AM »
TXCraig1,

In reverse engineering UPN Dough, are you still using a piece of old dough to add to your preferment and then final dough? With using a high heat and the way you are making your dough, I see how great results you have achieved.

Itís great to see how you are experimenting and getting to know you dough with each step you take.  Your idea of putting the preferment in the oven in a cooler room is good.

I also am on the learning curve and learn something new each time I try something different.  When I watch as each pie is made, dressed and then baked, each step can contribute to different results.  I am sure I never will stop learning and wonít have the equipment to try some of the ideas of other people, but I enjoy watching and learning from them. I am just learning more about starters and preferments and it is very interesting what they can do.  As you can see in this thread, there are some doughs I sure didnít like, but with each step there is something new learned. When I try to compare some of my pies made at market and then at home, there is a big difference.  I need to learn more about making pies at home.  Where I really have a problem is with my math..lol, but that isnít going to stop me from trying.

I have seen you BBQ modification and see the amazing pictures of your pizzas.  In your talking about what you have done to modify your BBQ grill and the high temperatures you are achieving, that is really great! 

Thanks for sharing your pictures of your preferment and pizzas.  You are doing a fantastic job!  :)

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #236 on: February 16, 2010, 07:57:22 AM »
Norma,

If I ever got to the point where I made pizza every day (I can dream can't I?), I would use the old dough method I discussed. It made by far the most flavorful pizzas I've ever made. Now, I'm trying to duplicate the flavor without having to have old dough. So far not so much luck. I've been experimenting with 48 hour preferments and I'm not pleased with my results so far. I'm looking at various salt levels in 48 hour preferments now.

Thank you for you other kind words.

Craig
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #237 on: February 16, 2010, 09:07:21 AM »
Peter -

The lovely browning is matched only by your perfect pepperoni coverage.  ;D  Seriously, that's a really nice golden brown.  Flavorful?

Glutenboy,

The crust browning was actually a different "browning" than what I normally achieve with the basic Lehmann NY style. It was more "golden", with more of a bread appearance. Craig mentioned that he used his preferment at 25% of the total dough weight. Mine used all of the formula water, plus an equal weight of flour, and it represented almost 74% of the total dough weight. That was intentional because I wanted to see what I would get if I subjected the maximum amount of flour to the prefermentation of the poolish. As a result, my crust had more of the attributes of a baked bread than a pizza crust. I think I would be inclined to agree with Craig that the 74% figure is too high. Like Craig, I, too, experienced an increase in elasticity. I wondered about this since the acids of preferments are supposed to strengthen the final dough. In Norma's case, she did not experience that, as her videos demonstrated. I did. However, my dough was very robust and not difficult to open up, and I did not develop thin spots or webbing, albeit the dough was more elastic than what I normally experience.

From the standpoint of crust flavor, it was flavorful but not great. I somewhat anticipated this result because of the cool prefermentation of the poolish, both before and during refrigeration. That was also intentional because I wanted to see if such a regimen was workable and to what extent. I was especially mindful of Norma's restrictions at market where she would most likely not be permitted to make a poolish at home and bring it to market for the final mix. That alone could rule out a lot of possibilities. Maybe Norma's Hatco unit will solve this problem, and thereby avoid the need to use some kind of proofing unit, but that remains to be seen.

This "cool" poolish test pretty much convinced me that you need a lot of prefermentation activity in order to develop the byproducts of fermentation that are responsible for crust flavor. In my experiment, the dough doubled by the time I decided to use it (based on the poppy seed method I used). The dough was still firm to the touch, and I seriously entertained the thought of leaving the dough in the refrigerator until I returned from my planned trip. However, I didn't want to lose the results of my test up to that point so I completed the pizza at that time. But I do believe that the dough could have held out much longer and, as a result, might have produced more byproducts of fermentation to provide more crust flavor. It would have been like a preferment version of your now famous quasi-geriatric dough.

The pepperoni coverage comes from all of my Papa John's clones where I tried to fit over 40 pepperoni slices on a 14" pizza ;D. Essentially the whole pizza is covered with almost no space between slices. They shrink a bit during baking, thus creating a bit of space between them. But they don't slide all over the pizza due to cheese upheaval during baking as can happen when you use a lot less slices.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #238 on: February 16, 2010, 10:06:59 AM »
Like Craig, I, too, experienced an increase in elasticity. I wondered about this since the acids of preferments are supposed to strengthen the final dough.

My recent, more acidified doughs have been less elastic as you would expect. This weekend, I made two identical batches except that I let one preferment go for 24 hours and the other for 48. The 48 was noticeably less elastic and baked up more bread-like in appearance. I'm actually not surprised by the increased elasticity of your dough. Several years ago, I also experimented with various preferments that went up to 100% of the formula water and up to 100% hydration. As the preferment% of total dough and hydration% increased, I saw decreasing elasticity up to a point then it began to increase up to the point where the dough would actually just fall apart like the gluten had been completely denatured. I unscientifically attributed this to the level of acids and the enzymes. I assumed that at low levels, they strengthened the dough but at some point they became concentrated enough that they simply started to dissolve it. I have only experimented with San Francisco and Ischia cultures - no commercial yeast. I suspect this is why my high preferment % dough were far weaker than yours - to the point where they were completely nonfunctional where you could still make a nice pie. In my old tests, I never went as low as 25% preferment/final dough. It was not until I started studying the UPN videos that I moved it that direction, and my results are better.

Craig
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #239 on: February 16, 2010, 12:35:23 PM »

If I ever got to the point where I made pizza every day (I can dream can't I?)

Craig,

LOL in saying you can dream of making pizza everyday.  :-D  Best of luck to you in duplicating the flavor of the old dough with other experiments.  I will be watching your posts to see if you are obtaining the results you are looking for. You have already tried many experiments, and I believe in time, you will succeed.  :)

Thanks,

Norma

Peter,

It is interesting to hear about your experiments with the preferment and the conclusions you formed from using a different formula.  Since I didnít go to market today, I am going to let at least one of the dough balls ferment for more than one day to see what happens.  I might try different things with other 4 dough balls.  At least that way I might see how these 5 dough balls are different in times of fermentation and also in freezing. 

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #240 on: February 16, 2010, 03:59:47 PM »
Nice thread. A lot here to absorb.  Quick question.  There isn't much mention of the mixing process after the poolish is added with the other ingredients. Is it safe to just follow this recipe: http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php for those steps?

I have bakers pride M02t oven.  What temp and how long would you recommend?  Can't wait to try this and compare it to JerryMac's recipe - which I have to admit is easier since one can do it all in one day.

Also, is post 149 still the most accurate recipe for me to use for the preferrment tom lehmann recipe?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 04:14:40 PM by briterian »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #241 on: February 16, 2010, 06:11:55 PM »
briterian,

Thanks for saying you think this is a nice thread.  As for the mixing instructions I usually use they are about the same as the link you gave, but I only mix the dough in my 20 quart Hobart Mixer until my dough is fully incorporated. The dough will look like this link.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90273.html#msg90273 ( I can't get this link to work )  It is reply 228 that shows the dough that was just mixed. The mixing time is about 4 to 5 minutes.  This is only for making the test 5 dough balls I have been doing.  I havenít tried a bigger batch as of this date.  I am waiting to get my Hatco Merchandiser to market and then I might know more about making a bigger batch of 15 lbs. 

Peter gave this formula for a single dough ball at this link for the poolish, preferment and final dough.  You could scale this up if you want.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226
                              
This is the formula for the test 5 dough balls. I am not sure what you regularly use as a thickness factor.
5 dough balls at Thickness Factor of 0.08932 at hydration of 61%.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687

I have a Bakerís Pride GP-61 double stack counter top oven that is propane gas.  I keep the temperature between 525-550 degrees F.

If I have made mistakes in answering your questions, I will let Peter straighten out anything I might have missed.  This formula for the poolish, 3 days ferment of the poolish, and final formula were Peter's idea and he did the math calculations and instructions for mixing of the preferment poolish and final dough mix.

I have never tried Jerry Mac's recipe, so I donít have anything to compare his recipe to this one.  I will have to try his recipe someday.

I find this dough nice and soft, easy to work with, and in my opinion has a better taste to the crust than a regular Lehmann dough. 

Any other questions..just ask.

Norma
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 06:06:05 AM by norma427 »


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #242 on: February 18, 2010, 04:37:33 PM »
These are two of the dough balls from the final mix on Monday from the preferment with the poolish.  They have been in my refrigerator since then.  I was going to make one pizza out of one of them today, but decided since they didnít look like either one of them was over fermenting, I would just let them cold ferment some more.  I did put three dough balls in the freezer today.  All five dough balls looked the same. 
I turned the one bowl over and there are some small bubbles on the bottom of the dough ball.
I also bought some Diastatic Malt Powder. 
I didnít get my Hatco Merchandiser over to market as of today.  There is still much snow that needs to be shoveled around the back.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #243 on: February 19, 2010, 10:55:04 AM »
Peter,

If you have time before Monday could you advise me on what amount of Diastatic Malt Powder I could try on a test batch of 5 dough balls. The the Diastactic Malt Powder would be added in the final dough on Monday.  I have read what Didier Rosada recommends, but am not sure if I should start at the high end or low end.  I just want to see if this makes a difference since I am experimenting and this coming week they are calling for more snow.

During the pre-fermentation time, the yeast uses up a lot of the flourís sugar, especially during long fermentation time at room temperature. When this portion of flour is added back to the final dough, the overall quantity of fermentiscibles sugar is lower than what is usually available for the yeast in a straight dough method. As a result of the lower availability of sugar, it is difficult to obtain satisfactory coloration of the crust. This defect is sometimes noticeable when a high percentage of overnight poolish or sponge is used in the final dough or when the enzyme activity of the flour is on the low side. To troubleshoot this problem, 0.5% to 1% of diastatic malt (based on the total flour) can be added to the final dough.

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #244 on: February 19, 2010, 12:53:36 PM »
Norma,

I assume that you are using the Lehmann poolish dough formulation at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. If so, there may not be a great need to use diastatic malt, or much of it, since your poolish has not been subjected to overly long periods of room temperature fermentation, especially at warm room temperatures. In my last experiment, I used a lot of diastatic malt. That was intentional since I wanted its possible effects to be dramatic. In the past where I have used more modest amounts, I could not readily see the effects of the use of the diastatic malt. I am away from home and don't have access to my notes but my recollection id that I used the diastatic malt at around 1.25% of the total formula flour. That turned out to produce dramatic effects, in the form of a "gummy" like crust in parts. That is one of the known effects of using too much diastatic malt. However, it did not adversely affect the eating experience. In fact, some people actually like that gummy effect. Now I know how to tell people how to achieve that effect if they desire it :-D.

In my case, I used the Bob's Red Mill diastatic malt. The conversion data for that brand of diastatic malt was originally used in the expanded dough calculating tool. However, as I previously noted elsewhere on the forum, the conversion data in that tool is off by a factor of ten on the low side (due to an error in entering the conversion data in the tool). However, the conversion data for the Bob's Red Mill diastatic malt is one teaspoon is 0.0881834 ounces. That is based on one teaspoon weighing 2.5 grams (30 grams for 1/4 cup). I did a quick check at the King Arthur website at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz and the conversion data shown there is one teaspoon weighs 2 grams. So, the conversion data is one teaspoon weighs 0.0705467 ounce.

In your case, if you want to experiment with the King Arthur diastatic malt, I think I would try 0.75%. For the dough formulation in Reply 149 referenced above, with 54.7 ounces of KASL, that would be 0.41025 ounces of diastatic malt, or 5.81 teaspoons, or a bit more than 5 3/4 t. For the sake of simplicity at this point, I would just add that amount to your regular Lehmann poolish dough formulation (as part of the final mix) without trying to adjust the amounts of the rest of the ingredients, as you would if you used the expanded dough calculating tool. Adding about 0.41 ounces of diastatic malt to a dough batch weighing 5.61 pounds isn't going to have much effect on the weights of the other ingredients.

Good luck.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #245 on: February 19, 2010, 07:00:55 PM »
Peter,
                                 
Yes, I am using the Lehmann poolish dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687
I will experiment with this batch of the Lehmann poolish dough formulation to see if there are any different results, until I get the Hatco Merchandiser to market.  I will use the 0.41025 ounces of diastatic malt and add to the final mix.
 
Good to hear with your experiment of using higher diastatic malt you can tell someone how to get that gummy effect if they want it.  ::)  Wonder who wants those results.  ???

Thanks for your advise and telling me I probably wouldnít need to add the diastatic malt.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #246 on: February 19, 2010, 08:25:56 PM »
I made a pizza tonight out of the Lehmann preferment poolish dough that was made Monday.  I made this pizza at home.  This dough was left in the fridge since Monday and didnít look like it was over fermenting.  I left the dough warm up for 2 hours at 70 degrees F.  After that amount of time the dough was starting to develop bubbles.  I compared the dough left out for 2 hours to the dough still cold fermenting in the fridge.  The dough still cold fermenting in the fridge still doesnít show signs of over fermenting.  The dough still was easy to open, but my peel I have here at home isnít the same size I have at market.
I dressed the pie with cheese and pepperoni.  The pie was baked in my home oven.  The temperature of my home oven doesn't go much over 450 degrees F.  I can see a difference in how my home oven bakes compared to my oven at market.
I can't compare the taste of the crust to the other poolish preferments of Lehmann doughs I have tried in the past, because I have a cold and can't taste anything.   :-\  Wish I could because this dough was cold fermented 3 days longer.
At least I am learning to make more pies here at home.  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 07:00:05 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #247 on: February 19, 2010, 08:27:28 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #248 on: February 19, 2010, 10:22:41 PM »
TXCraig; couldn't your oven spring also be affected by the heat you're utilizing? I know you have that BBQ mod, so I'd like to see the crumb in a normal oven at 550 if you get a chance.

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #249 on: February 21, 2010, 07:07:27 PM »
Peter,

Wow..you really outdid yourself with this formula with the preferment with poolish for the Lehmann dough.  Superb in my opinion!!  :)

I made a pizza tonight using the dough ball that was leftover.  It looked like it was starting to overferment this afternoon and had a big bubble as seen in the picture.  I decided to use the dough today.  I decided to do something different with this dough ball.  I used my 12" deep dish pan after I opened the dough.  There still wasnít any problems with opening the dough, but I didn't let it out of the refrigerator more than a half hour.  The pan with oiled with Crisco. 
The dressing on this pie was different.  I used cherry tomatoes, Panko seasoned bread crumbs, 2 garlic cloves, 1 shallot, 2 tablespoons of olive oil, fresh ground black pepper and sea salt.  They were then mixed together and put on the middle rack of the oven and broiled for about 6 minutes.  The dough was then dressed with olive oil, fresh pesto, mozzarella, and the mixture that was broiled.
The pizza was baked in the deep-dish pan on the middle rack of the oven until the bottom looked finished.
I was pleasantly surprised when I tasted the pie.  It was more like a Sicilian, but of all the Sicilians I have tried before, this was the best.  The bottom crust had some crunch and the pie was so easy to chew.  I really liked the taste of this pie better than all the Sicilian recipes I had tried before.  Some of the Sicilianís I had made were more airy, but this pie was much more light and I really like that..

I donít know if I would get the same results if I tried to do this at market, but will have to try, maybe by putting a screen on the bottom of the deep-dish pan before putting on the hearth.

Thanks again,

Norma


 

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