Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

Thanks guys!  Very prompt replies.  I'll keep moving forward with reply 149 multiplied by 4.  My electrolux mixer will be getting a workout.  It can't handle 5 dough mix just a 4 dough mix so I am going to figure out how 5 batches look and then get me a nice india pale ale to help me pass the time.   

Did I mention that this pizza is for 15 kids under the age of 13 all headed to the ohio state swim meet!  They will need their carbs and I'll get a review if it's better than the pizza monopoly here in Cincinnati called LaRosas.

brian

Brian,

Best of luck and I will be very interested in seeing how this works out for you.  Good to hear you will be getting a review if this formula is better than LaRosas Pizza.  IMHO most pizzas on this forum are better than pizza businesses.  Since trying some of these pizzas on this forum, I haven't been back to my favorite pizza man for pizza.  Only for other items he sells..LOL  I think my taste especially in the crust has changed.

Norma

[norma427]

I tried out the Hatco Unit today and think it will work okay for making the poolish.  The temperature stayed between 81-88 degrees F.  A batch of poolish for a 15 lb. dough was made today. 
These are pictures of the Hatco unit, poolish when just mixed, poolish at 1 hour, poolish at 2 hours, and poolish at 2 ½ hours.  At least there is room for the Hatco Unit under the pizza oven on the shelf. 

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[norma427]

The larger batch of poolish that was made Friday with the Hatco unit worked well today, when incorporated into the final dough. 

Picture 1 poolish after it came out of deli case
Picture 2 dough made with poolish

Now the only problems I can see with using the poolish preferment with the Lehmann dough is on Friday deciding how much dough I will need for the following Tuesday.  It all depends on the weather on how much dough I need to make.  The only other problem I could foresee is when the weather gets hotter if I need to adjust anything about this formula.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The poolish looks quite good to me. It will be interesting to see whether the next batch of pizzas are as good as when you made smaller test batches.

Your production requirements are unique. Most pizza operators operate in enclosed shops where they can control temperature conditions more uniformly than you can where you are at the farmers market, although it looks like the Hatco unit may turn out to be a good addition to your operation. Also, pizza operators make pizzas on specific, fixed days and learn through ordering patterns and sales for each day how much dough they will have to make to meet demand throughout the course of the week. You have one one day to sell pizzas, in an environment that can be quite variable. Also, bad weather can mean fewer customers. If you track your sales, I would guess that they can be quite variable from one Tuesday to the next. A pizza operator with one bad day might be able to hold the dough balls in inventory over to the next day and be in pretty good shape. You don't have that option. Unless you decide to discard unused dough balls or find other uses for them or other outlets for them, you most likely would have to freeze them until the next Tuesday and adjust the size of the next dough batch to yield a standard number of total dough balls for the next Tuesday. I personally don't see any problem with freezing dough balls for later use in your case. Although you do not make frozen dough balls like commercial dough ball producers do, your dough balls are made from quality materials and are perhaps of better overall quality than commercial frozen dough balls. And they should not degrade in quality over the course of several days until the next Tuesday. Plus, you have already demonstrated that you can make good pizzas with frozen dough balls. Some operators use only frozen dough balls. You would have a hybrid operation.

These are just thoughts off the top of my head. You no doubt have a better grasp of your operation and the economics of it and may see other options for balancing out your inventory of dough balls when you are only selling pizzas on one day.

It is perhaps premature to think about what changes might have to be made when summer arrives. As you know, there are a lot of places where the dough formulation and methods can be adjusted. As we enter spring and we have more information on how the larger dough batches perform, we can look at some of the possible changes to experiment with.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I also am interested is seeing how the dough preforms tomorrow.  It looked, smelled and felt the same as when I made a smaller batch. 

I know my production requirements are unique.  So are all the other food vendors that have to prepare food for just one day. That is the way of market vendors. There are many restaurants that serve full menu’s. I would hate to have to deal with what to make for the day in one of those.  There is a Greek stand that only sells Greek food and pastries that they prepare before market and make the Gyros on market day.  They also have fresh fried fish stands, Asian stands and many more eating stands..I only have to deal with the dough, but I don’t want to run out of dough.
At least in my situation, I have been at the market for many years, so I know somewhat what to expect in terms of people.  The weather here is supposed to be great tomorrow, so that will mean a lot more people coming to the market.  People here get cabin fever and come out in swarms when the weather is better. When summer comes there are many tourists and that is what is hard to predict. I had trouble today thinking about how much dough to make.  That is a weekly decision.  At least I keep some frozen dough balls from the week before and use them during the day before I use all the fresh dough balls. They can just as easily be used for cheesy breadsticks, garlic knots, pizza buns, or Panini’s. I only keep the dough balls frozen for one week.  I have found when trying to use frozen dough balls from two weeks, they don’t perform as well. 
Sales at market are down during the winter, although still many regular customers come.  Rainy weather can affect the amount of customers in any season.  People still like to come to market because there are so many fresh vegetable, fruit stands, fresh meat stands, deli’s, fresh poultry and their prices are much lower than grocery stores.  If I would have to guess when the weather is nice and there are inside and outside vegetable and fruit stands the number of them could be forty or better.  Many farmers come sell their vegetables, too.
 
That is one of the problems I see in making the poolish on Friday if the weathermen aren’t right about Tuesday’s weather.  It is almost a year since I started making pizza at market and I can kind of predict what might happen this summer if the weather isn’t too hot. I know some day I won’t make the right decision about how much dough I will need.  I have learned this from having other stands at market.  At least if the weather men are wrong, and I can’t predict what amount of poolish to make there is always the regular Lehmann dough to make extra of on Monday. Hopefully this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough will work out for pizzas all year long.  Maybe the Hatco Unit will work out because I could put a lot of poolish in there.

Thanks for saying when summer approaches we can see if there is a need to adjust things,

Norma

[norma427]

The larger batch of poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well today.  I made regular pizza out of the dough and also a Sicilian pizza.  The dough worked out well for the Sicilian, too. 

These are some of the pictures of the pizzas made with the poolish preferment and the Sicilian Pizza pictures.  The Sicilian Pizza was made in a square 10" pan and the dough used was the regular weight of dough for the 16" pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures..if anyone is interested in seeing some pictures of the market and how many standholders have to get ready for just one day, I will post some pictures of market stands.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Those are fine looking pizzas. It looks like your perseverence has paid off. Now that you have demonstrated that you can work with larger dough batches with the poolish, where do you go from here?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thank you for saying the pies look fine.  I guess the next step is trying to decide how much poolish I will need for next Tuesday.  I don't know if the first weeks if I will make the right decision on how much poolish to make weekly, but I will give it a try.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I just wanted to ask a question, before I made the poolish for more than one dough batch today.  This past Monday and Tuesday were warmer here.  When I mixed the final dough with the poolish it was 68 degrees F at market.  The poolish dough looked the same when finished as the Lehmann dough.  It had a couple of tiny bubbles while balling.  When I used both the doughs Tuesday, it seemed like the preferment poolish dough looked like it was more fermented in the deli case and while on the bench.  I didn’t have any problems opening the poolish dough until around 5:30 PM.  Then it seemed like the preferment poolish dough was more extensible.  I could still open it, but it was harder than the regular Lehmann dough.  The temperature inside market Tuesday varied, but with the oven on it was around 82 degrees F.  I let both kinds of dough balls out on the counter from anywhere between 1 ½ hours to 3 hours. 

Yesterday I had read Evelyne’s post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773.html#msg28773
In that post she had stated:
If you are working with any kind of preferment or starter, that temperature is way, too high.
That was referring to the finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F between home and commercial dough making.
I am now wondering if I should just let the poolish ferment less today, or adjust the final dough temperature on Monday.  Since it is supposed to be warmer on Tuesday, again.  I don’t want the dough to be overfemented .

Do you know if there is a certain point I should be looking for today in how much the poolish should bubble?  I guess it will be a learn while you go experience.  I will be making multiples of batches of dough for Tuesday, because I sold out of dough this past Tuesday.  I am now wondering if I should just try for two batches with the poolish this week and make the rest with the regular Lehmann dough, until I have more experience with the poolish preferment and temperature changes.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I believe that what Evelyne was saying about the finished dough temperature was in relation to a commercial dough using a poolish, not a poolish-based dough in a home environment. But, what she says about Tom in this regard appears to be correct. For example, if you look at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7385.msg63703/topicseen.html#msg63703, specifically, the quoted paragraph on preferments, you will see that Tom calls for a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F for the dough prepared in the final mix using the preferment.

Based on Evelyne's comments, I went back to the Didier Rosada materials on preferments to see if anything was said about the finished dough temperature after the final mix. I couldn't remember his addressing that matter and, when I re-read the materials, I did not see it. I think that what Evelyne had in mind is that when you use a preferment, one of the purposes is to shorten the total production time from the point that the preferment is incorporated into the final mix. So, if you want the prefermented dough to last as long as a straight dough, you should slow down the fermentation process. One way to do this is to strive for a lower finished dough temperature, as by using cooler water. This is consistent with what Professor Calvel discusses and shows in his book The Taste of Bread. Specifically, he shows a chart at page 46 that compares different baking methods for making dough and baking the bread. The total elapsed time for a straight dough, from mixing to baking, is shown as 6 hours. For a poolish-based dough, the total elapsed time from mixing (the final mix) to baking is given as 4 hours and 45 minutes. These examples are with respect to bread dough in a room-temperature environment, but I believe the same principles should apply in a cold fermentation environment for two doughs that are handled the same way from the time of mixing to the time of use. If I am correct on this point, that might help explain why your prefermented dough started to become more extensible sooner than your regular Lehmann dough. I think one way to bring the two Lehmann doughs into closer alignment is to temper your Lehmann poolish-based dough for a shorter time period than your regular Lehmann dough. That means having to treat the two types of dough somewhat differently.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for the referenced link and going over about preferments.  I can’t really temper my Lehmann based poolish preferment dough for a shorter amount of time, because market isn’t open on Saturday or Sunday.  The alarms are set for those days. I need to make the poolish today.  By delaying the time I take the Lehmann poolish preferment dough out of the deli case, do you mean a shorter time for warm-up? 
               
I noticed when I looked at both doughs Tuesday morning that the poolish preferment dough looked like it had expanded more.  I can’t really tell because the balls are cold fermented in a plastic bags.  When I did the 5 test balls in the plastic containers, in past weeks, the dough didn’t look like it had expanded more.  Later in the day, this past Tuesday, it looked like the Lehmann poolish preferment dough had more bubbles than my regular Lehmann dough. 

I think I am going to just test another poolish for a 15 lb. batch today and see what happens with the final mix and then study the dough more on Tuesday, before I go into a full poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough for more batches.  Right now, since I am unsure what will happen with the temperature changes, I don’t want my dough to change too much without understanding what might happen.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

What I meant is that instead of letting the poolish-based Lehmann dough balls temper for 1 1/2-3 hours, you might shorten that time. Maybe 1/2-1 hour is better for that dough.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I noticed when I looked at both doughs Tuesday morning that the poolish preferment dough looked like it had expanded more.  I can’t really tell because the balls are cold fermented in a plastic bags.  When I did the 5 test balls in the plastic containers, in past weeks, the dough didn’t look like it had expanded more.  Later in the day, this past Tuesday, it looked like the Lehmann poolish preferment dough had more bubbles than my regular Lehmann dough. 

Norma,

I forgot to comment on the above in my last post but what you have reported seems to be consistent with the Calvel comparison data as earlier reported. It may pose some problems in logistics if you are to make the two different Lehmann doughs and have them co-exist side by side, but hopefully those problems will go away if you finally settle on the poolish-based Lehmann dough. That is not to say that you won't have to tweak the poolish-based Lehmann dough to fit your operations better, but that is something that can be addressed down the line, and particularly as the weather warms up. For now, I think it would be better to play around with the temper times than to try to reformulate the poolish-based dough and its fermentation (slow it down) so that the dough balls track the basic Lehmann dough balls better.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

What I meant is that instead of letting the poolish-based Lehmann dough balls temper for 1 1/2-3 hours, you might shorten that time. Maybe 1/2-1 hour is better for that dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the suggestion of letting the dough balls warm up for less time..  I will try that Tuesday.  I think I am going to make the poolish part today and let it in the Hatco Unit for less time, than I did last Friday.  The poolish was left in the Hatco Unit for 2 1/2 hrs. last Friday,  I will watch the poolish today and see if 2 hrs. might work out.  It still has time to cold ferment in the deli case over the weekend.  
From the time I start making pizzas until I am finished in the evening is about 11 hours.  That gives the dough balls additional time to cold ferment.  When dealing with all these dough balls and different amounts of time to cold ferment I can see a difference even in the normal Lehmann dough by evening.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

With the two doughs behaving differently and producing materially different results, it is easy for us to forget that the two Lehmann dough formulations are the same. It is only that we have sliced and diced the regular Lehmann dough formulation to come up with a poolish version. Consequently, we shouldn't expect the two doughs to perform the same way.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

With the two doughs behaving differently and producing materially different results, it is easy for us to forget that the two Lehmann dough formulations are the same. It is only that we have sliced and diced the regular Lehmann dough formulation to come up with a poolish version. Consequently, we shouldn't expect the two doughs to perform the same way.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand that both the Lehmann dough with the poolish preferment and the regular Lehmann dough are basically the same.  The poolish preferment dough just makes the pizza more Artisan looking and better tasting in my opinion. 

I just have to do some more tests to see how the dough will be perform when use later in the day on Tuesday and also how the dough looks after it is cold fermented for a day.  I want to be able to note any changes, before I go into a poolish preferment for all my dough.

The poolish preferment was mixed today for another 15 lb. test batch.  I upped the temperature in the Hatco Unit to 96 degrees F.  A thermometer was kept in the poolish so I could watch and not let the temperature of the poolish get to high, because of the added temperature of the Hatco Unit.  The poolish seemed to be ready in 1 ½ hrs and the temperature of the poolish was 81 degrees F.

The first picture is after I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit and put it on the edge of the sink for 4 minutes.  The temperature fell to 78 degrees in that short amount of time.  The ambient room temperature at market was 58 degrees F.  The second picture is of the poolish back in the Hatco Unit and the temperature was 81 degrees F.  The poolish then was put into the deli case. The temperature of the deli case was 37 degrees F.

Will see if this test poolish works any different than the last one, in making the final dough, is any different after cold fermenting, and also in the later hours on Tuesday.

Norma

[UnConundrum]

Hey Norma, just wanted to add my 2 cents   Those pies do look great.  What improvement you've made from when you first posted   I hope the customers appreciate the quality product you're now offering and the time you've put into it!!!!  Well done!

[norma427]

Hey Norma, just wanted to add my 2 cents   Those pies do look great.  What improvement you've made from when you first posted   I hope the customers appreciate the quality product you're now offering and the time you've put into it!!!!  Well done!

Warren,

Thanks for saying the pies look great.  I am not making all my batches from the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough at this time. It is just one 15 lb. batch each week. I am still trying to produce the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough pies on a consistent basis and have the same product from week to week.

Thanks,

Norma