Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 138527 times)

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #340 on: March 17, 2010, 12:46:19 PM »
Well it's a solid poolish! That is to say not soupy in the least. I just mixed the 151 gs of water and flour, and 1.6 tsp IDY in the mixing bowl and by the time I got it to the container I have 286 gs left. i think that's about 6% bowl/wisk attachment residue.

Maybe it's better to mix it by hand in the actual container it's to rest in. This will help my scaling down to 15" though. As blob-like as it is I can't see how will bubble, but the high yeast concentration should break through that issue.

It is now sitting in airtight container on the counter.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:50:55 PM by NY pizzastriver »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #341 on: March 17, 2010, 12:51:03 PM »
Jim,

The poolish is very thick. I mix mine with a spatula. It will bubble.   :-D

Let me know if you have any problems,

Peace neighbor,

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #342 on: March 17, 2010, 01:44:00 PM »
Jim,

If you are looking for a Sicilian pizza out of this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, here are two pictures of a slice I had for lunch today. I just microwaved the slice and it was still soft and tasty.  Last picture after I had a bite.

Only a few more days and you will be eating your own,  ;D

Norma
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #343 on: March 17, 2010, 02:15:08 PM »
It will bubble.   :-D


I'll say! In 1 hour it blew he top right off the Tupperware container, might have been all that high speed mixing, lol. It is now in a much larger airtight container on the counter, and has reduced yet again to probably 260- 270 gs.

Yeah I confused on which pizza was which, either way at least the Sicilian pie inspired me enough to try the regular formula.

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #344 on: March 17, 2010, 10:23:47 PM »
I tried the Take and Bake 16" pizza tonight.  Since the dough has no added sugar and I am just experimenting with the idea of a Take and Bake pizza, this will give me an idea on what would happen if baked within 24 hrs., as it would state on instructions.  This will also give me a starting point to do further experimenting.  I donít think if this ever succeeds that I would try a 16" pizza, again.  Next time I would probably try a 12" Take and Bake pizza.

I let the pizza sit out at room temperature last evening to stimulate a customer taking the pizza home to bake.  The dough looks lifeless while in the refrigerator and right after taking it out.  I let the Take and Bake pizza sit at room temperature while the oven heated to 475 degrees F. for 1 hour.  I used my cheap infrared gun to check the temperature.  The dough did rise a little in the one hour time frame. 

I baked the pizza for 13 minutes at the above referenced temperature.  The top looked like it was browning too fast, so I dropped the oven temperature to 450 degrees F and continued baking for another 8 minutes. 

The Take and Bake pizza was good, but I will do things differently the next time I try this.  I have never thought about how thin my pies were, until I tried this in my home oven.

The bottom crust did have some browning, but not enough for me.  The rim was nice and crunchy.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #345 on: March 17, 2010, 10:25:03 PM »
rest of Take and Bake pictures

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #346 on: March 17, 2010, 10:44:07 PM »
Nirma,

Was the pizza baked on a combination of parchment paper on top of aluminum foil?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #347 on: March 17, 2010, 10:47:07 PM »
Norma,

Was the pizza baked on a combination of parchment paper on top of aluminum foil?

Peter

Peter,

No, the pizza was just baked on the parchment paper.  That is why I said I wouldn't try a 16" Take and Bake.  It was to hard to try and load into the oven.

Norma
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:54:16 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #348 on: March 19, 2010, 04:11:15 PM »
There were a few new things tried with the poolish preferment today.  The temperature at market, the flour, water and IDY were 57 degrees F. I didnít heat up the water and just added the flour, water and IDY and mixed.  I also wanted to see after mixing the poolish if the temperature of the poolish would rise any by mixing by hand with a spatula.  It did.  The temperature of the poolish after mixing was 61 degrees F.  The poolish was then put in the Hatco Unit for 1 hr. and 14 minutes.  I adjusted the temperature of the Hatco Unit a little higher (103-109 degrees F).  Then I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit before it had a lot of bubbling, compared to more active bubbling in the last few weeks.  I want to see if the poolish will bubble as much over the next 3 days in the deli case.  In summarizing why I did all these things was to see how much difference it can make in the poolish by Monday.

Picture of poolish before going into deli case.

Norma
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #349 on: March 21, 2010, 05:01:22 PM »
Well, not so good, lol. Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours. This left a thick skin by the time I noticed. This probably killed the dough, but I degassed it and put it back in and it blew back up a second time, but I'm still not saying it wasn't on its last legs due to the airflow issue. If I'd gotten these results without top blowing off I may have said the poolish can't live 3 days, but this thread already shows it can, so that's that.

Since my final weight of poolish was 250gs instead of 300 I added all remaining ingredients at x.83 to keep it accurate. After 3 days the poolish had risen, then sunk to a goop that I let rest in the remaining warm water for a few minutes to help it break up. All seemed ok once it mixed, standard feeling dough.

It came out to a dusted board today, dusted and saran covered to come to room temp. As soon as I started to stretch it I knew it was dead, no bubbles, play dough unresponsive consistency, it reminded me of the old days! (or my more recent fails in the "OO" experiments)
 :D

It cooked as poorly as you'd expect from dough appearance, staid white when toppings were done, bad rise, cardboard texture and a rim that could be called more of a ''holder'' to eat the slice more than an actual edible part of the pizza. The sauce and toppings were great though, and the crust flavor was still ok, so I did eat a few slices.

Now to the point of my trying this preferment. As far as the flavor goes like I said it was fine, but not a bit different from doing a Lehmann straight up for one or two days. That said I'll assume the preference in the process must be a textural one. (?) If so clearly my experience today obviously can't allow any meaningful comment there, but it must be a pretty darn magical consistency with all that's involved. To close it was fun to try, and all that, but a good reminder to stick with what ya know!

Here's pics, and peace!

 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 05:31:37 PM by NY pizzastriver »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #350 on: March 21, 2010, 05:29:15 PM »
Jim,

Would you mind telling us what dough formulation you used and how you prepared the dough through the final mix and to the point of baking? Knowing the temperatures (e.g., room temperature, finished dough temperature, etc.) at the different stages would also be a big help. From your discussion and photos, I would say that the dough overfermented. Ordinarily, for that to happen, the temperature and/or yeast quantity would have to be out of whack.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #351 on: March 21, 2010, 05:47:41 PM »
Hey Peter, sure no problem. As posted in this reply for the 16" http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

I made 2 balls, the original formula for 1 was ...



Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (for a single 16" pizza)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
310.16 g  |  10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs
189.2 g  |  6.67 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.08932
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for one dough ball for a single 16" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp (this is a bit less than 3/32 t.)
151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
234.5 g  |  8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs
113.54 g  |  4 oz | 0.25 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs



As my poolish was much lost in whisks and transferring I had 250gs left. Therefore my final mix was

388 flour
186 water
.56tsp IDY
1.6 tsp salt
1.04 tsp oil

in other words the remaining doubled, then multiplied by .83 as 17% was gone from poolish.

The poolish was made as stated, but doubled, and finally placed in a large enough container to hold it. Now it was mixed in mixer, not spatula as I later learned was protocol, so this might have increased temp.

Final mix was removing cold poolish into warm water, not hot water. Added yeast, oil, idy, salt, mix slow until poolish began to separate a little. 1/2 remaining flour went in, mixed into batter with wisk at 1st, then S-hook for about 5 mins. Divide to 2 400g balls, straight into oiled containers.. 3 hours later boom! Degassed and recovered.


Room temp is about 70, nice, slightly overcast, 30% chance of precipitation. Ok, so just the 70 part.  :-D

final dough temp was probably about 60-65 based on it sitting out for 2.5 hrs. As to actual temp who knows, no digital lazer-mometer here. Baked for about 6 mins at 550.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 05:54:02 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #352 on: March 21, 2010, 06:37:42 PM »
Jim,

I think I may have figured out what happened with your dough. From your description, it sounds like you let the dough sit at room temperature after the final mix. The way that Norma has been making the poolish version of the Lehmann dough, as per my original advice and her own experiments, is to let the dough after the final mix cold ferment for about a day before using. In your case, with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish, all the heavy lifting during the room temperature ferment was left to the remaining yeast added as part of the final mix. Normally, that amount of yeast would not produce a lot of rise in the dough, but use of the warm water no doubt helped that process along, at least at the outset. If your room temperature was around 70 degrees F, and with the use of warm water, even with the cool poolish, it is hard to see how the finished dough temperature would be below your room temperature after 2 1/2-3 hours. You would have needed a very cold poolish and cold water as part of the final mix, and even then, based on the quantities involved, the final dough would not have has a finished dough temperature below room temperature after about 2 1/2-3 hours.

If the above was, in fact, the case, then the fermentation of the final dough would have been slow. Also, 2 1/2-3 hours would have been insufficient to allow the natural sugars in the dough to be released by enzyme action. That would have ultimately manifested itself in a light color in the final baked crust. Also, you would have not gotten as many byproducts of fermentation to contribute to final crust flavor and texture.

In short, it looks to me that you essentially baked an underfermented dough, not an overfermented dough as I originally speculated before I fully understood what you did. 

Peter
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 06:40:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #353 on: March 21, 2010, 06:40:24 PM »
Jim,

I am sorry to hear you had so many problems with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  :(
 
Since I mix the poolish and final dough at market and my temperatures can widely differ, I am also wondering why your poolish had so much expansion that it blew the lid off the poolish.  I have made the poolish in different ways and using different temperatures before incorporating into the final dough.  My poolish never blew the top off.  I have used various times in letting the poolish bubble and just watch it until it seems to bubble enough.
 
The one day I did have problems with the final dough and it being more extensible, but then I only left the dough warm-up for one hour.

When I make this dough the pizza gets more artisan looking and gets a better flavor to the crust in my opinion.   

I am still experimenting with different things with the poolish and even the final dough temperature. 

Since I am not an expert on a poolish or even trying many kinds of doughs, I will see what Peter thinks might have happened.

I see Peter just answered your post, just as I was going to post.

Jim,

After I reread your post, I am still wondering why after the final mix, the lid blew off and also how the poolish seemed to go into goop.

Thanks for going into detail on what happened when you made this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough,

Norma
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 07:00:08 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #354 on: March 21, 2010, 06:53:25 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, Jim's final dough blew, not the poolish, which apparently had risen but sunk to a "goop". Based on what Didier Rosada has told us in his writings, an overfermented poolish can have types of acidity that can negatively affect the flavor of the finished product. For this to happen, the poolish would have had to collapsed and remained in that state for some time, not just an hour or two.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #355 on: March 21, 2010, 07:04:09 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, Jim's final dough blew, not the poolish, which apparently had risen but sunk to a "goop". Based on what Didier Rosada has told us in his writings, an overfermented poolish can have types of acidity that can negatively affect the flavor of the finished product. For this to happen, the poolish would have had to collapsed and remained in that state for some time, not just an hour or two.

Peter

Peter,

I just had revised my last post, after I reread what Jim was saying about the poolish and final dough.  I will have to keep this all in mind to watch if the poolish I am using ever reacts the same way. 

Norma

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #356 on: March 21, 2010, 08:34:31 PM »
Jim,

I think I may have figured out what happened with your dough. From your description, it sounds like you let the dough sit at room temperature after the final mix. The way that Norma has been making the poolish version of the Lehmann dough, as per my original advice and her own experiments, is to let the dough after the final mix cold ferment for about a day before using. In your case, with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish, all the heavy lifting during the room temperature ferment was left to the remaining yeast added as part of the final mix. Normally, that amount of yeast would not produce a lot of rise in the dough, but use of the warm water no doubt helped that process along, at least at the outset. If your room temperature was around 70 degrees F, and with the use of warm water, even with the cool poolish, it is hard to see how the finished dough temperature would be below your room temperature after 2 1/2-3 hours. You would have needed a very cold poolish and cold water as part of the final mix, and even then, based on the quantities involved, the final dough would not have has a finished dough temperature below room temperature after about 2 1/2-3 hours.



Ok let me address paragraph 1 here first by saying "what!?" When you say I let it sit out after final mix, it sat out for 2.5 hrs after being in the fridge for a day. This was to warm the dough as always. Are we on the same page there, or did you think I mixed, divided and let it sit out for 2.5 hrs after that? I said "straight to oiled containers", that meant it went in the fridge then.

You also mention something that I need clarification on. When you say ''with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish''. I assume you mean the natural sugar? If you don't that means the poolish was to have sugar, and mine didn't as per formula...unless I missed something??? Ok so now that we settled that would you now say over or under-fermented? I'm confused on your saying the dough temp would be less than room temp after being out for 2 1/2 hours too. How could it be higher than room temp?!

Norma, yes no problem, live and learn. How did poolish blow off top? Well it about tripled in size! It was very stringy by the time I transferred to larger container. These are small tupperware containers, the ones I use normally. They are the 12 on the right seen here.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg75724.html#msg75724
They have pinholes so this was a sheer mass blowing off the top, same as final dough did within 3 hrs 3 days later. I'm thinking the water in poolish should be cold, not mixed in mixer, etc. My synopsis is the poolish died, hence the final dough blew on new yeast and died soon after. Hey maybe the poolish was supposed to have sugar! But it was goop indeed and impossible, almost comical, to get out of container without another part sticking. Also it was not fast to break up, once i got 1/2 the flour in after mixing the salt and all I had to high speed it for 3 minutes to break it up... another possible warming factor prior to final dough.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #357 on: March 21, 2010, 09:15:58 PM »
Jim,

Now I am even more confused and perplexed. I based the conclusion that you let the final dough after the final mix sit at room temperature based on this statement:

Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours.

I did not see anything in that statement to tell me that the dough balls went into the refrigerator right after the final mix. I almost always put dough balls to be fermented at room temperature in oiled plastic storage containers, to keep the dough balls from spreading too much, particularly with a hydration of 61%, and I assumed that you did the same thing.

On the matter of the sugar in the poolish, yes, I was referring to the natural sugars that are extracted from the starch by enzymes during the prefermentation period. Based on the description of the poolish you provided, I came to the conclusion that the poolish ran out of natural sugars by the time you used it. That might not have been optimal but with a new source of yeast for the dough at the time of the final mix, the dough should have been able to ferment (cold ferment) in a fairly normal manner over the course of a day in the refrigerator. The over-aged poolish might not have had much, if any, further leavening power but it would have contributed a lot of fermentation byproducts to add to final crust flavor.

On the matter of the room temperature versus the finished dough temperature, you said that the room temperature was about 70 degrees F and that the finished dough temperature was about 60-65 degrees F after about 2 1/2 hours. My belief is that the finished dough temperature would have been quite close to 70 degrees after about 2 1/2 hours, not at 60-65 degrees F. I never did say that the finished dough temperature would get above about 70 degrees F, which would not be possible at a fixed 70 degrees F.

Based on your latest explanation, I am puzzled why you got the results you did. 

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #358 on: March 21, 2010, 09:20:41 PM »
Jim,

This is a video of the first time I opened the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, if you are interested in seeing how the dough behaved.   
This was the first week I tried this dough formula and even did wrong measurement and ended up with two different poolishes, but this video was the right poolish.

This is another link to show you what my dough looked like in the early stages of experimenting with this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough in reply #228 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90273.html#msg90273

I did use a plastic container as you did while making the poolish and also have used plastic containers for the tests for 5 dough balls.  Right now I am doing more tests and am using poppy seeds to see how much the final dough ferments for 1 day.  I also am using Cambro containers now for the poolish.

I know all this can sound confusing,

Norma
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #359 on: March 22, 2010, 02:48:35 PM »
Jim,

Now I am even more confused and perplexed. I based the conclusion that you let the final dough after the final mix sit at room temperature based on this statement:

Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours.



Ah yes, I see now, I meant
Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours... in the fridge
 ;D

Thanks for clarifying the rest of the points, and I have to say if the poolish lived then I'll guess it's simply too much fermentation caused by the open air in the fridge once top blew. I mean the skin formed so that's never good. I did use ball 2 today for bread sticks. For browning purposes I basted pan and sticks with garlic evoo and spices. Still a bit too crusty but they went ok with the homemade ravioli that I made for the 1st time today... mmm!

Again don't feel bad Norma, it's all good! Yeah I saw the vids, looks like some well behaved dough. I'll put my next poolish in a time out to see if it behaves better.
 :D
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1