Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 165741 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #325 on: March 16, 2010, 10:00:34 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #326 on: March 16, 2010, 10:21:23 PM »
I also made a take and bake pizza out of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I will be trying that pizza out in my home oven in the next few days.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23577
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #327 on: March 16, 2010, 10:27:23 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting all of your latest results.

I believe that both doughs performed as they should have. Were you able to visually discern the differences in the degree of expansion of the two types of dough? I know it is sometimes hard to tell when the dough balls go from round dough balls to slumping disks.

If you feel that you would like to slow down the fermentation of the poolish version, you can use cooler water at the time of the final mix. You can perhaps also lower the amount of yeast although that might require re-doing the numbers in Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181. I think I would rather work with temperatures than yeast quantities.

Now that you have conducted several runs with the poolish method, are you still committed to that approach, or do you think that the regular Lehmann dough meets your business needs based on acceptance by your customers?

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #328 on: March 16, 2010, 10:41:43 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting all of your latest results.

I believe that both doughs performed as they should have. Were you able to visually discern the differences in the degree of expansion of the two types of dough? I know it is sometimes hard to tell when the dough balls go from round dough balls to slumping disks.

If you feel that you would like to slow down the fermentation of the poolish version, you can use cooler water at the time of the final mix. You can perhaps also lower the amount of yeast although that might require re-doing the numbers in Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181. I think I would rather work with temperatures than yeast quantities.

Now that you have conducted several runs with the poolish method, are you still committed to that approach, or do you think that the regular Lehmann dough meets your business needs based on acceptance by your customers?

Peter

Peter,

Since I used the plastic containers, instead of the plastic bags for this test, I could visually see the dough did ferment more.  It didnít slump, it just got higher in the plastic bowl.  I wanted to take a picture of the difference, but I forgot.  I also could visually see how much more the poppy seeds had spread apart.  With the regular Lehmann dough the poppy seeds didnít move much.

I think I am going to go with your approach and use cooler water and do another 15 lb. batch of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough next week.  Since the dough worked out well today, using the cold poolish, I will just try to get the final dough temperature a little cooler.

I still am committed to using this formula.  I just want to make sure everything works out well, before I go into doing this with all my dough.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23577
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #329 on: March 16, 2010, 10:57:09 PM »
I also made a take and bake pizza out of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I will be trying that pizza out in my home oven in the next few days.

Norma,

It will be interesting to see how your take and bake pizza turns out. Have you decided how long you will wait before baking the pizza, and will you be baking the pizza the way that is usually recommended for take and bake pizzas? What I am anxious to see is the differences between the take and bake dough/pizza and the other poolish-based doughs/pizzas you have been making.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #330 on: March 16, 2010, 11:14:26 PM »
Norma,

It will be interesting to see how your take and bake pizza turns out. Have you decided how long you will wait before baking the pizza, and will you be baking the pizza the way that is usually recommended for take and bake pizzas? What I am anxious to see is the differences between the take and bake dough/pizza and the other poolish-based doughs/pizzas you have been making.

Peter

Peter,

I am interested in seeing how the Take and Bake works out in my home oven.  Since my home oven doesn't go too high, I am just going to bake it on the parchment paper that I put under it to see what happens.  I am not sure how long I am going to wait before baking it.  I am going to watch it in my home refrigerator and then decide.  I am almost sure the Take and Bake pizza won't look like a pizza made at market.  I am not going to use my stone.  Just put it in the oven.  I don't even know what rack I will try.  Should be interesting.  ::)

Norma

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #331 on: March 17, 2010, 11:19:37 AM »
Ok so these pies look pretty amazing, gotta say, and after 17 pages I can assume the formula has been perfected so here's my question.

In looking back a few pages I found the last actual formula listed.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91188.html#msg91188

I see no thickness factor so I can't fathom a scaled down batch, then add scaling down poolish and we're really deep into the unknown. Is there a non commercial batch with full protocol anywhere? Say for 2-3 15" pizzas?

Thanks in advance  :D
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #332 on: March 17, 2010, 11:44:18 AM »
NY pizzastriver,

I even had trouble finding the formula for 1 dough ball.  ::)  My thickness factor is 0.08932, so my pies are thin. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

You could double this formula to get two dough balls.

I have been experimenting right now with making the poolish and letting it cold ferment for 3 days before incorporating into the final dough. Then letting the final dough cold ferment for one day before making the pizzas. 

I wish you the best in trying this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  If you want you could come to market some Tuesday and I would give you a dough ball to compare yours with. 

Any other questions, just ask.  I guess this thread is getting kind of mixed up, by all the twists and turns.

Thanks for saying the pies look amazing,

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23577
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #333 on: March 17, 2010, 11:51:38 AM »
Jim,

The dough formulation that you perhaps want to use is the one given for a single 16" pizza at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226, as Norma noted. Since that formulation is for the 16" size, you would have to re-do all of the numbers, using the criteria set forth in Reply 225 (mainly in the notes). That would be the most accurate way to proceed. However, unless you delight in spending an hour or so working with numbers, and double and triple checking them once you are done, you might instead make 2-3 dough balls for 2-3 16" pizzas using the numbers in Reply 225 and then scale back the final dough batch weight to the desired weight after the final mix. For example, if you want to make two dough balls for the 15" size, you would scale the dough batch weight down to 2 x 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.088 = 31.10 ounces (881.73 grams). For three dough balls for the 15" size, the final dough batch weight would be 3 x 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.088 = 46.65 ounces (1322.60 grams). Either way, you should end up with several ounces of leftover dough. You will note that I used a thickness factor of 0.088 rather than the number quoted by Norma. Her value reflects the use of a bowl residue compensation. Since you will end up with leftover dough anyway, you don't need to use the higher number.

Peter


Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #334 on: March 17, 2010, 11:57:08 AM »
NY pizzastriver,


Any other questions, just ask.  I guess this thread is getting kind of mixed up, by all the twists and turns.



Ok, thanks, and yes some Q's What temp is the water for poolish?
What temp for final dough mix?

So you let the poolish sit in the fridge for 2 days right after mixing, or out for a few hours 1st? Is it tightly or loosely covered while it rests? If so with and in what?

When do you divide into 2 or 20 balls, in your case, lol.

Once you mix final dough and it comes out of fridge does it sit out covered and dusted for awhile? If so what's awhile?

I'm sure there's more, but they all may be listed in some protocol section I'm yet to find. It is 17 pages after all! Hope you are well, and thanks for the aid.  ;D

EDIT: And thanks Peter, good thought to make it easier indeed.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #335 on: March 17, 2010, 12:16:34 PM »
Jim,

You are asking some tough questions..LOL  :-D The water temperature for the poolish is varying right now for me and also the temperature for the final mix.  I am not expert, but have found when trying a smaller amount of 5 dough balls using a water temperature of about 85 degrees F and letting the poolish sit at room temperature for about 3 hours or until you see the poolish bubbling.  This might vary depending on your room temperature and water temperature.  Just watch the poolish and you should be able to see when it looks like it has bubbled enough. 

I let the poolish cold ferment for 3 days.  I did let the poolish come up to room temperature before I mixed into the final mix, but have found out recently, I could just add the cold poolish to the final dough.  You could try it either way. 

As for the final dough temperature this has also varied for me.  I think if you get a final dough temperature of between 80-85 degrees F, you should be fine.  I had that dough temperature when trying 5 dough balls.

I do divide the dough into single balls right after the final mix. 

Then cold ferment for one day.

Before making the pizza recently, I have let the dough only sit out for an hour before opening the pizza.  Then open the dough.  When making the five dough balls, I let the dough balls sit out for anywhere between 1 Ĺ to 3 hours.

Hope this doesnít confuse you.  IMO this dough is very forgiving.

Anymore questions, just ask.

Norma

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #336 on: March 17, 2010, 12:20:54 PM »
Good answers to my tough Q's! The only remaining was the poolish sits in a bowl in fridge, covered with wrap, or in airtight containment? I'm actually very excited to try this, as you can see I gave you time to work out the bugs, and this pic is what made me say they are all worked out!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9908.0;attach=19857;image

Just WOW!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:23:24 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #337 on: March 17, 2010, 12:24:32 PM »
Good answers to my tough Q's! The only remaining was the poolish sits in a bowl in fridge, covered with wrap, or in airtight containment?

Jim,

Sorry I forgot to answer that question.  Yes, the poolish is covered in the fridge either with wrap or an airtight container.  I use an airtight container.

Norma

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #338 on: March 17, 2010, 12:29:09 PM »
ok, I'm off to mix up some poolish, I'll let ya see results in a few days! Thanks neighbor!
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #339 on: March 17, 2010, 12:32:34 PM »
Jim,

I forgot to look at your picture.  :-\

The only bug on working on this type of Sicilian Pizza was trying to do that in the last two weeks.  Last week I used a rectangular pan.  This week I used a 12" deep-dish pan and after oiling the pan with olive oil, I let the dough room ferment for 3 hours with a linen towel.  The dough did rise considerably.  Then I dressed it with an infusion of olive oil and fresh herbs, like I use in my cheesy bread sticks, then sauce and mozzarella.  

Good Luck!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:37:01 PM by norma427 »

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #340 on: March 17, 2010, 12:46:19 PM »
Well it's a solid poolish! That is to say not soupy in the least. I just mixed the 151 gs of water and flour, and 1.6 tsp IDY in the mixing bowl and by the time I got it to the container I have 286 gs left. i think that's about 6% bowl/wisk attachment residue.

Maybe it's better to mix it by hand in the actual container it's to rest in. This will help my scaling down to 15" though. As blob-like as it is I can't see how will bubble, but the high yeast concentration should break through that issue.

It is now sitting in airtight container on the counter.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:50:55 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #341 on: March 17, 2010, 12:51:03 PM »
Jim,

The poolish is very thick. I mix mine with a spatula. It will bubble.   :-D

Let me know if you have any problems,

Peace neighbor,

Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #342 on: March 17, 2010, 01:44:00 PM »
Jim,

If you are looking for a Sicilian pizza out of this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, here are two pictures of a slice I had for lunch today. I just microwaved the slice and it was still soft and tasty.  Last picture after I had a bite.

Only a few more days and you will be eating your own,  ;D

Norma

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #343 on: March 17, 2010, 02:15:08 PM »
It will bubble.   :-D


I'll say! In 1 hour it blew he top right off the Tupperware container, might have been all that high speed mixing, lol. It is now in a much larger airtight container on the counter, and has reduced yet again to probably 260- 270 gs.

Yeah I confused on which pizza was which, either way at least the Sicilian pie inspired me enough to try the regular formula.

 :chef:
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #344 on: March 17, 2010, 10:23:47 PM »
I tried the Take and Bake 16" pizza tonight.  Since the dough has no added sugar and I am just experimenting with the idea of a Take and Bake pizza, this will give me an idea on what would happen if baked within 24 hrs., as it would state on instructions.  This will also give me a starting point to do further experimenting.  I donít think if this ever succeeds that I would try a 16" pizza, again.  Next time I would probably try a 12" Take and Bake pizza.

I let the pizza sit out at room temperature last evening to stimulate a customer taking the pizza home to bake.  The dough looks lifeless while in the refrigerator and right after taking it out.  I let the Take and Bake pizza sit at room temperature while the oven heated to 475 degrees F. for 1 hour.  I used my cheap infrared gun to check the temperature.  The dough did rise a little in the one hour time frame. 

I baked the pizza for 13 minutes at the above referenced temperature.  The top looked like it was browning too fast, so I dropped the oven temperature to 450 degrees F and continued baking for another 8 minutes. 

The Take and Bake pizza was good, but I will do things differently the next time I try this.  I have never thought about how thin my pies were, until I tried this in my home oven.

The bottom crust did have some browning, but not enough for me.  The rim was nice and crunchy.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #345 on: March 17, 2010, 10:25:03 PM »
rest of Take and Bake pictures

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23577
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #346 on: March 17, 2010, 10:44:07 PM »
Nirma,

Was the pizza baked on a combination of parchment paper on top of aluminum foil?

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #347 on: March 17, 2010, 10:47:07 PM »
Norma,

Was the pizza baked on a combination of parchment paper on top of aluminum foil?

Peter

Peter,

No, the pizza was just baked on the parchment paper.  That is why I said I wouldn't try a 16" Take and Bake.  It was to hard to try and load into the oven.

Norma
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:54:16 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24393
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #348 on: March 19, 2010, 04:11:15 PM »
There were a few new things tried with the poolish preferment today.  The temperature at market, the flour, water and IDY were 57 degrees F. I didnít heat up the water and just added the flour, water and IDY and mixed.  I also wanted to see after mixing the poolish if the temperature of the poolish would rise any by mixing by hand with a spatula.  It did.  The temperature of the poolish after mixing was 61 degrees F.  The poolish was then put in the Hatco Unit for 1 hr. and 14 minutes.  I adjusted the temperature of the Hatco Unit a little higher (103-109 degrees F).  Then I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit before it had a lot of bubbling, compared to more active bubbling in the last few weeks.  I want to see if the poolish will bubble as much over the next 3 days in the deli case.  In summarizing why I did all these things was to see how much difference it can make in the poolish by Monday.

Picture of poolish before going into deli case.

Norma

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #349 on: March 21, 2010, 05:01:22 PM »
Well, not so good, lol. Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours. This left a thick skin by the time I noticed. This probably killed the dough, but I degassed it and put it back in and it blew back up a second time, but I'm still not saying it wasn't on its last legs due to the airflow issue. If I'd gotten these results without top blowing off I may have said the poolish can't live 3 days, but this thread already shows it can, so that's that.

Since my final weight of poolish was 250gs instead of 300 I added all remaining ingredients at x.83 to keep it accurate. After 3 days the poolish had risen, then sunk to a goop that I let rest in the remaining warm water for a few minutes to help it break up. All seemed ok once it mixed, standard feeling dough.

It came out to a dusted board today, dusted and saran covered to come to room temp. As soon as I started to stretch it I knew it was dead, no bubbles, play dough unresponsive consistency, it reminded me of the old days! (or my more recent fails in the "OO" experiments)
 :D

It cooked as poorly as you'd expect from dough appearance, staid white when toppings were done, bad rise, cardboard texture and a rim that could be called more of a ''holder'' to eat the slice more than an actual edible part of the pizza. The sauce and toppings were great though, and the crust flavor was still ok, so I did eat a few slices.

Now to the point of my trying this preferment. As far as the flavor goes like I said it was fine, but not a bit different from doing a Lehmann straight up for one or two days. That said I'll assume the preference in the process must be a textural one. (?) If so clearly my experience today obviously can't allow any meaningful comment there, but it must be a pretty darn magical consistency with all that's involved. To close it was fun to try, and all that, but a good reminder to stick with what ya know!

Here's pics, and peace!

 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 05:31:37 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1