Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 162030 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #350 on: March 21, 2010, 05:29:15 PM »
Jim,

Would you mind telling us what dough formulation you used and how you prepared the dough through the final mix and to the point of baking? Knowing the temperatures (e.g., room temperature, finished dough temperature, etc.) at the different stages would also be a big help. From your discussion and photos, I would say that the dough overfermented. Ordinarily, for that to happen, the temperature and/or yeast quantity would have to be out of whack.

Peter


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #351 on: March 21, 2010, 05:47:41 PM »
Hey Peter, sure no problem. As posted in this reply for the 16" http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

I made 2 balls, the original formula for 1 was ...



Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (for a single 16" pizza)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
310.16 g  |  10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs
189.2 g  |  6.67 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.08932
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for one dough ball for a single 16" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp (this is a bit less than 3/32 t.)
151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
234.5 g  |  8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs
113.54 g  |  4 oz | 0.25 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs



As my poolish was much lost in whisks and transferring I had 250gs left. Therefore my final mix was

388 flour
186 water
.56tsp IDY
1.6 tsp salt
1.04 tsp oil

in other words the remaining doubled, then multiplied by .83 as 17% was gone from poolish.

The poolish was made as stated, but doubled, and finally placed in a large enough container to hold it. Now it was mixed in mixer, not spatula as I later learned was protocol, so this might have increased temp.

Final mix was removing cold poolish into warm water, not hot water. Added yeast, oil, idy, salt, mix slow until poolish began to separate a little. 1/2 remaining flour went in, mixed into batter with wisk at 1st, then S-hook for about 5 mins. Divide to 2 400g balls, straight into oiled containers.. 3 hours later boom! Degassed and recovered.


Room temp is about 70, nice, slightly overcast, 30% chance of precipitation. Ok, so just the 70 part.  :-D

final dough temp was probably about 60-65 based on it sitting out for 2.5 hrs. As to actual temp who knows, no digital lazer-mometer here. Baked for about 6 mins at 550.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 05:54:02 PM by NY pizzastriver »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #352 on: March 21, 2010, 06:37:42 PM »
Jim,

I think I may have figured out what happened with your dough. From your description, it sounds like you let the dough sit at room temperature after the final mix. The way that Norma has been making the poolish version of the Lehmann dough, as per my original advice and her own experiments, is to let the dough after the final mix cold ferment for about a day before using. In your case, with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish, all the heavy lifting during the room temperature ferment was left to the remaining yeast added as part of the final mix. Normally, that amount of yeast would not produce a lot of rise in the dough, but use of the warm water no doubt helped that process along, at least at the outset. If your room temperature was around 70 degrees F, and with the use of warm water, even with the cool poolish, it is hard to see how the finished dough temperature would be below your room temperature after 2 1/2-3 hours. You would have needed a very cold poolish and cold water as part of the final mix, and even then, based on the quantities involved, the final dough would not have has a finished dough temperature below room temperature after about 2 1/2-3 hours.

If the above was, in fact, the case, then the fermentation of the final dough would have been slow. Also, 2 1/2-3 hours would have been insufficient to allow the natural sugars in the dough to be released by enzyme action. That would have ultimately manifested itself in a light color in the final baked crust. Also, you would have not gotten as many byproducts of fermentation to contribute to final crust flavor and texture.

In short, it looks to me that you essentially baked an underfermented dough, not an overfermented dough as I originally speculated before I fully understood what you did. 

Peter
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 06:40:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Online norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #353 on: March 21, 2010, 06:40:24 PM »
Jim,

I am sorry to hear you had so many problems with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  :(
 
Since I mix the poolish and final dough at market and my temperatures can widely differ, I am also wondering why your poolish had so much expansion that it blew the lid off the poolish.  I have made the poolish in different ways and using different temperatures before incorporating into the final dough.  My poolish never blew the top off.  I have used various times in letting the poolish bubble and just watch it until it seems to bubble enough.
 
The one day I did have problems with the final dough and it being more extensible, but then I only left the dough warm-up for one hour.

When I make this dough the pizza gets more artisan looking and gets a better flavor to the crust in my opinion.   

I am still experimenting with different things with the poolish and even the final dough temperature. 

Since I am not an expert on a poolish or even trying many kinds of doughs, I will see what Peter thinks might have happened.

I see Peter just answered your post, just as I was going to post.

Jim,

After I reread your post, I am still wondering why after the final mix, the lid blew off and also how the poolish seemed to go into goop.

Thanks for going into detail on what happened when you made this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough,

Norma
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 07:00:08 PM by norma427 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #354 on: March 21, 2010, 06:53:25 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, Jim's final dough blew, not the poolish, which apparently had risen but sunk to a "goop". Based on what Didier Rosada has told us in his writings, an overfermented poolish can have types of acidity that can negatively affect the flavor of the finished product. For this to happen, the poolish would have had to collapsed and remained in that state for some time, not just an hour or two.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #355 on: March 21, 2010, 07:04:09 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, Jim's final dough blew, not the poolish, which apparently had risen but sunk to a "goop". Based on what Didier Rosada has told us in his writings, an overfermented poolish can have types of acidity that can negatively affect the flavor of the finished product. For this to happen, the poolish would have had to collapsed and remained in that state for some time, not just an hour or two.

Peter

Peter,

I just had revised my last post, after I reread what Jim was saying about the poolish and final dough.  I will have to keep this all in mind to watch if the poolish I am using ever reacts the same way. 

Norma


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #356 on: March 21, 2010, 08:34:31 PM »
Jim,

I think I may have figured out what happened with your dough. From your description, it sounds like you let the dough sit at room temperature after the final mix. The way that Norma has been making the poolish version of the Lehmann dough, as per my original advice and her own experiments, is to let the dough after the final mix cold ferment for about a day before using. In your case, with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish, all the heavy lifting during the room temperature ferment was left to the remaining yeast added as part of the final mix. Normally, that amount of yeast would not produce a lot of rise in the dough, but use of the warm water no doubt helped that process along, at least at the outset. If your room temperature was around 70 degrees F, and with the use of warm water, even with the cool poolish, it is hard to see how the finished dough temperature would be below your room temperature after 2 1/2-3 hours. You would have needed a very cold poolish and cold water as part of the final mix, and even then, based on the quantities involved, the final dough would not have has a finished dough temperature below room temperature after about 2 1/2-3 hours.



Ok let me address paragraph 1 here first by saying "what!?" When you say I let it sit out after final mix, it sat out for 2.5 hrs after being in the fridge for a day. This was to warm the dough as always. Are we on the same page there, or did you think I mixed, divided and let it sit out for 2.5 hrs after that? I said "straight to oiled containers", that meant it went in the fridge then.

You also mention something that I need clarification on. When you say ''with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish''. I assume you mean the natural sugar? If you don't that means the poolish was to have sugar, and mine didn't as per formula...unless I missed something??? Ok so now that we settled that would you now say over or under-fermented? I'm confused on your saying the dough temp would be less than room temp after being out for 2 1/2 hours too. How could it be higher than room temp?!

Norma, yes no problem, live and learn. How did poolish blow off top? Well it about tripled in size! It was very stringy by the time I transferred to larger container. These are small tupperware containers, the ones I use normally. They are the 12 on the right seen here.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg75724.html#msg75724
They have pinholes so this was a sheer mass blowing off the top, same as final dough did within 3 hrs 3 days later. I'm thinking the water in poolish should be cold, not mixed in mixer, etc. My synopsis is the poolish died, hence the final dough blew on new yeast and died soon after. Hey maybe the poolish was supposed to have sugar! But it was goop indeed and impossible, almost comical, to get out of container without another part sticking. Also it was not fast to break up, once i got 1/2 the flour in after mixing the salt and all I had to high speed it for 3 minutes to break it up... another possible warming factor prior to final dough.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #357 on: March 21, 2010, 09:15:58 PM »
Jim,

Now I am even more confused and perplexed. I based the conclusion that you let the final dough after the final mix sit at room temperature based on this statement:

Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours.

I did not see anything in that statement to tell me that the dough balls went into the refrigerator right after the final mix. I almost always put dough balls to be fermented at room temperature in oiled plastic storage containers, to keep the dough balls from spreading too much, particularly with a hydration of 61%, and I assumed that you did the same thing.

On the matter of the sugar in the poolish, yes, I was referring to the natural sugars that are extracted from the starch by enzymes during the prefermentation period. Based on the description of the poolish you provided, I came to the conclusion that the poolish ran out of natural sugars by the time you used it. That might not have been optimal but with a new source of yeast for the dough at the time of the final mix, the dough should have been able to ferment (cold ferment) in a fairly normal manner over the course of a day in the refrigerator. The over-aged poolish might not have had much, if any, further leavening power but it would have contributed a lot of fermentation byproducts to add to final crust flavor.

On the matter of the room temperature versus the finished dough temperature, you said that the room temperature was about 70 degrees F and that the finished dough temperature was about 60-65 degrees F after about 2 1/2 hours. My belief is that the finished dough temperature would have been quite close to 70 degrees after about 2 1/2 hours, not at 60-65 degrees F. I never did say that the finished dough temperature would get above about 70 degrees F, which would not be possible at a fixed 70 degrees F.

Based on your latest explanation, I am puzzled why you got the results you did. 

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #358 on: March 21, 2010, 09:20:41 PM »
Jim,

This is a video of the first time I opened the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, if you are interested in seeing how the dough behaved.   
This was the first week I tried this dough formula and even did wrong measurement and ended up with two different poolishes, but this video was the right poolish.

This is another link to show you what my dough looked like in the early stages of experimenting with this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough in reply #228 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90273.html#msg90273

I did use a plastic container as you did while making the poolish and also have used plastic containers for the tests for 5 dough balls.  Right now I am doing more tests and am using poppy seeds to see how much the final dough ferments for 1 day.  I also am using Cambro containers now for the poolish.

I know all this can sound confusing,

Norma


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #359 on: March 22, 2010, 02:48:35 PM »
Jim,

Now I am even more confused and perplexed. I based the conclusion that you let the final dough after the final mix sit at room temperature based on this statement:

Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours.



Ah yes, I see now, I meant
Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours... in the fridge
 ;D

Thanks for clarifying the rest of the points, and I have to say if the poolish lived then I'll guess it's simply too much fermentation caused by the open air in the fridge once top blew. I mean the skin formed so that's never good. I did use ball 2 today for bread sticks. For browning purposes I basted pan and sticks with garlic evoo and spices. Still a bit too crusty but they went ok with the homemade ravioli that I made for the 1st time today... mmm!

Again don't feel bad Norma, it's all good! Yeah I saw the vids, looks like some well behaved dough. I'll put my next poolish in a time out to see if it behaves better.
 :D
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #360 on: March 22, 2010, 05:34:02 PM »
Jim,

Your bread sticks and ravioli look great.  :)  LOL, putting your poolish in a time out to see if it will behave better.  This dough does behave well, no need for a time out for the poolish or final dough.  If you decide to give it another shot, here are some things I did different this week.  I will see tomorrow if this new experiment does work.

Norma

For anyone that is following this thread this is what I did different this week.

I put the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough in the final mix cold and also didnít heat the water for the final mix.  The water was only 62 degrees F.  My final dough temperature was only 68 degrees F.  The poolish wasnít left to bubble as much last Friday.  It did have the same amount of bubbles after the 3 day cold ferment.  I put two dough balls into two different size plastic containers and put poppy seeds, spaced at 1" apart on both.  I will take measurements tomorrow to see how much the dough ferments while using this colder final mix temperature. The temperature at market today was 68 degrees F.  The humidity today was 68% humidity, because it has been raining here today. 

These pictures are of the poolish today and the kind of spatula I use to mix the poolish.  The second picture is of the flexible dough scraper I use to take the poolish out of the container and also to scrape the sides of the mixer down.  The third picture is of the two plastic containers I placed the dough balls in with the added poppy seeds. The one container is just a plastic container and the other container is a cambro container.  I use a 12 qt. container to mix the poolish for a 15 lb. batch.

Norma
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 06:28:43 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #361 on: March 23, 2010, 09:16:21 PM »
The new experiment for the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well.  The dough that had a final temperature of 68 degrees preformed the same as last weeks dough.  I left the dough warm up for various times and it didnít have any extensibility.  This recent dough performed better with the Sicilian pizza in my opinion.  I pushed out the dough with my fingers in a 12" deep-dish pan and let it proof at room temperature for 3 hours, covered with a linen towel..  The crust did get more airy than the previous Sicilian pizzas.  I also made another kind of breadsticks with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I used caramelized onions along with the herb mixture and Romano cheese.. 

Last week I froze the two test dough balls from the regular Lehmann dough and the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I forgot to take a picture last week of a side view so I could compare how much the two dough expanded upward it the same size bowls.  I let the two dough defrost at room temperature and let them on the counter for 4 hours.  They didnít expand anymore, but they still worked out well when making a pies. 

The one thing that has me puzzled is about the two dough balls that I put the poppy seeds on yesterday.  I did put the dough balls in two different size containers.  The one was wider in diameter than the other.  I put the little measurement tool on both doughs today at two different times.  One at 8:30 in the morning and one at 3:30 this afternoon.  They both were kept in the deli case and only taken out for the measurements.  The dough in the container that was larger had more space between the poppy seeds, than the other dough that was smaller in diameter.  My guess is you canít use two different size of containers and be able to measure with accuracy how much the dough ferments, because there were two different measurements with exactly the same dough balls.

Another experimental 12" Take and Bake pizza.

Picture 1 8:30 this morning test dough in larger container
Picture 2 8:30 this morning test dough in smaller container

Picture 3 3:30 this afternoon test dough in larger container
Picture 4 3:30 this afternoon test dough in smaller container

Picture 5 Cheesy breadsticks with caramelized onions and Romano cheese

Picture 6 Sicilian pizza

Picture 6 unfrozen Lehmann dough on left and unfrozen poolish preferment for Lehmann dough on right from last week

Picture 8 test Take and Bake 12" pizza for this week

Norma
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 09:19:35 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #362 on: March 23, 2010, 09:17:31 PM »
other four pictures

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #363 on: March 23, 2010, 10:19:15 PM »
Norma,

I am glad to hear that the latest poolish version of the Lehmann dough turned out well. Do you plan to use the cooler poolish going forward?

You indicated that the dough after tempering did not have any extensibility. Do you mean that the dough was elastic, with snapback?

It's interesting how the two dough balls with the poppy seeds performed. I almost never make two dough balls at a time so I have never done side by side comparisons. I wonder whether different size containers can affect the extent of fermentation in some way by altering the geometry of the dough balls.

I really like the looks of the Sicilian pizza.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #364 on: March 23, 2010, 10:42:37 PM »
Peter,

Since I have tried this experiment with using a cold poolish and also a cooler final dough and it has worked well, I am going to go forward with this method.  I think this also will work in warmer weather.  Only time will tell.  This whole method is a lot easier.  Even the poolish did well with only letting it ferment for less time.

I meant my dough didnít have the extensibility that I found in this post. There was no snap-back.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg92834.html#msg92834

That was when I had more problems opening the dough later in the day.

I was also puzzled by this experiment with the two dough balls.  If I had just taken the one dough ball and then just measured it with the poppy seeds, in one size container, I wouldnít have found out how differently the poppy seeds moved.  I really canít understand how you can accurately measure how much the dough ferments after I tried the two different size containers.

Thanks for saying you liked the looks of the Sicilian pizza.  The crumb was so moist, tasty and airy, I couldnít have asked for more.

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #365 on: March 24, 2010, 10:41:50 PM »
I made the poolsh preferment Lehmann dough 12" Take and Pizza that I brought home last night, late this evening.  The only thing different I did was let the aluminum foil under the parchment paper.  This pizza took longer to bake.  I watched it like a hawk, while it was in the oven though the glass door.

Next week I think I am going to try a par-baked pizza for the Take and Bake because years ago a place near us had a delicious Take and Bake pizza that was par-baked and you just took it home and baked for a little. The pizza could then also be frozen and baked at another time. The pizza place is still there, but the pizza went down hill.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #366 on: March 25, 2010, 05:13:31 PM »
Looks great for a take and bake, Norma. Better than nearly everything in my area, actually.


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #367 on: March 25, 2010, 07:52:06 PM »
Looks great for a take and bake, Norma. Better than nearly everything in my area, actually.

hotsawce,

Thanks for saying the pie looks great for a Take and Bake.  :)  I am just trying out this experiment and others with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough to see if there are ways to make a pie and be able to make it the next day in an easy way.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #368 on: March 29, 2010, 08:52:50 AM »
Peter,

I have been curious about the poppy seed trick and how the results were from last week.  ::) I did freeze the two dough balls with the poppy seeds and am going to see tomorrow after they are unfrozen if I can tell anymore differences in them. 

I plan on making two more dough balls today with the poppy seeds to see if I can tell anymore differences in using different containers.  I will be using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Can you think of any other kinds of tests I could do using the poppy seed trick to see if this trick really works in finding out how much the dough ferments?

I will call this the joust in the tournament of the poppy seed test.  It reminds me of the Renaissance Faire were have here in this area.  This is a picture from our Renaissance Faire.

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #369 on: March 29, 2010, 09:09:34 AM »
Norma,

The timing of your last post is perfect  ;D. In view of your recent experience in using the poppy seed method, I decided to conduct my own experiment. I made two dough balls to make two 14" pizzas, with each dough ball weighing 399 grams and both based on the basic Lehmann dough formulation (with a hydration of 62%). In fact, the two dough balls came from the same dough batch. I tried to form the two dough balls so that they were as close to each other in shape and geometry as possible. I placed one of the dough balls in a one-quart glass Pyrex bowl and the other in a 1 3/4-quart Pyrex glass bowl. I placed the two bowls in my refrigerator side by side so that they would be exposed to the same refrigerator environment as much as possible. Over the course of about 2 1/2 days, I checked the spacing of the poppy seeds on a few occasions. After doing so each time, I switched the positions of the two bowls when I returned them to the refrigerator. After two days, there was essentially no difference in the spacing of the poppy seeds, although the dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl slouched more than the dough ball in the one-quart bowl, and its shape was a bit more oval than round such that its dimensions were a bit different than the other dough ball. After a bit over 2 1/2 days, the dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl developed such that the spacing between the two poppy seeds was about 1/16" greater than the spacing of the two poppy seeds of the other dough ball. Unless one measured the spacing, the difference wouldn't have been particularly noticeable. The dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl at that point was still a bit oval in shape and its height was a bit less than the other dough ball which, by that time, had spread to touch the walls of its bowl, making its shape almost perfectly round.

The photo below shows the two doughs balls. The dough ball in the one-quart Pyrex glass bowl is shown on the right. The dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart Pyrex glass bowl is on the left.

In your case, you eventually will know what your dough balls should look like, making it unnecessary to use the poppy seed method. But my experiment was consistent with my prior use of the poppy seed method. As November has mentioned, the poppy seed method is not perfect or intended to provide a highly accurate technical measurement. Its merit is its simplicity.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #370 on: March 29, 2010, 09:59:10 AM »
Peter,

I find your experiment very interesting.  ;D I have different sizes of Pyrex bowls here at home and will take two over to market.  The one container I used last week was a Glad container that had curved edges.  The other container was a Cambro container that had straight edges.  I will do the experiment and see if the two different curved Pyrex bowls do make a difference.  I will see if I can get more consistency this week.

The poolish went well again last Friday, so hopefully everything will go okay today. The water at market was warmer when I added it to the flour. I didnít heat the water, but the temperature and water at market were higher. The poolish then took 10 less minutes to develop to the point as the week before. 

I think by doing these experiments with the poolish preferment, using different water temperatures and higher temperatures in the Hatco Unit, I can now understand more what to do when I up all my dough to using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.

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And so the joust and tournament will begin.. ;D

Thanks for doing the experiments and reporting your results,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #371 on: March 29, 2010, 10:30:56 AM »
The one container I used last week was a Glad container that had curved edges.  The other container was a Cambro container that had straight edges.

Norma,

Over about the past year or so, I have been using pretty much the same storage containers for my dough balls. That way, I reduce the number of variables and I can relate results to each other, even for different experiments, without having to take into account the type of container, its material, its size, its shape or its wall thickness, all of which might affect the results. But, even then, I don't just say that a particular dough ball expanded by a particular amount based on the spacings of the poppy seeds. I try to always give the times it takes for the dough balls to reach particular sizes, like doubling or tripling. So, even if the poppy seed results were wrong, someone would still have a pretty good chance of replicating my results if my instructions are followed.

It is perhaps also useful to keep in mind that doughs change the longer they sit in their containers and as the fermentation approaches its outer limit. The gluten structure can degrade and water might be released from its bond, causing the overall structure of the dough to change such that the poppy seed method becomes less reliable. The same might apply to doughs with very high hydrations that result in doughs that have little internal stuctural support.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #372 on: March 29, 2010, 04:57:51 PM »
Norma,

Over about the past year or so, I have been using pretty much the same storage containers for my dough balls. That way, I reduce the number of variables and I can relate results to each other, even for different experiments, without having to take into account the type of container, its material, its size, its shape or its wall thickness, all of which might affect the results. But, even then, I don't just say that a particular dough ball expanded by a particular amount based on the spacings of the poppy seeds. I try to always give the times it takes for the dough balls to reach particular sizes, like doubling or tripling. So, even if the poppy seed results were wrong, someone would still have a pretty good chance of replicating my results if my instructions are followed.

It is perhaps also useful to keep in mind that doughs change the longer they sit in their containers and as the fermentation approaches its outer limit. The gluten structure can degrade and water might be released from its bond, causing the overall structure of the dough to change such that the poppy seed method becomes less reliable. The same might apply to doughs with very high hydrations that result in doughs that have little internal stuctural support.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the additional information and about using the same size containers to keep the variables down so you can give predicable results for someone that wants to try your formulas. 

I used two Pyrex bowls the same sizes that you used.  I covered the dough balls in the Pyrex containers with disposable shower caps to see how that goes. I will measure them again tomorrow.

The only difference in my test today, was to make the final dough temperature a little colder. The final dough temperature was 61 degrees F. I want to see what effect this has on the dough tomorrow.  If this goes well, then I think I will be able to make all my dough with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I wanted to experiment these last few weeks with different things, so I would understand more what can happen with the poolish and final dough.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #373 on: March 30, 2010, 09:34:26 PM »
Well the jousting battle of the poppy seeds seemed to show their skill today.  They helped me gain skills of learning.  :)  The poppy seeds used in the two different Pyrex containers did show the same size of spacing at different times.  Although the dough in the smaller container did rise more, there werenít any measurable differences in the two doughs using the poppy seed method while it was fermenting from yesterday until late today.

The lower final dough temperature didnít seem to make any difference when making the pizzas today.  The dough did ferment some from yesterday.  The pictures show how it fermented from this morning until late this afternoon.  All the pizzas made with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well today. 

I also used the two poolish preferment for Lehmann dough balls that were frozen from last week and they worked out well, too..

Another thing that made me happy today was the inspector was at my stand and I didnít receive any violations.   :)

Picture 1 one dough ball this morning in Pyrex bowl-both measurements were the same for both dough balls

Picture 2 both dough balls this afternoon, side by side

Picture 3 first pizza this morning with final dough temperature lower than before

Picture 4 pizza made late in the afternoon

Picture 5 crumb of pizza made late in the afternoon

Picture 6 bottom crust of pizza made late in the afternoon

Norma
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 09:37:39 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #374 on: March 30, 2010, 09:36:14 PM »
somehow picture 2 got cut off at the side  ::)..rest of pictures


 

pizzapan