Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 140592 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2009, 11:49:41 AM »
Peter,
I didnít realize I had changed the IDY.  Since I have never done this before, I thought you just took off the 0.1 % from the dough recipe and put that into the preferment. For the thickness factor I went back to some of the first posts I had made and then you told me that a typical NY thin pizza would be 0.088. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.0.html Reply #1   I am not ready to change the numbers now.  For me to even vaguely figure this out, the time was about 4 hours.  If I go on to further experiments, then I am willing to try and figure out the numbers, again.  My math skills are really lacking, but the common sense still comes into play.

Weíll see if Tom Lehmann knows what he is talking about when he said the preferment will make a softer dough.  He should know after all his experience.  I am anxious to try this out, too.  It will be my first step in making any kind of preferment.
Thanks for your help, Peter.  When I went back to my first post and all the questions I asked, I just had to keep laughing.  But with your help and everyoneís help on this forum I have least come this far.  I know I will never stop learning different ways to make pizza and that is what makes this challenging and fun.
Thank you everyone for all the help you have given me.  :)
Norma
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 11:52:49 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2009, 02:38:15 PM »
Norma,

If you had subtracted 0.1% from 0.26%, you would have gotten 0.16%, not 0.25%. Tom's description was not entirely clear about whether the 0.1% IDY was with respect to the preferment flour or the total flour. I assumed that it was with respect to the preferment flour (which is the standard method) since he says that the preferment should be added to the mixing bowl with "the full compliment (sic) of IDY ". In your case, the full complement of IDY would be 0.26% (as per your original recipe posted in this thread).

I must say that I have some doubts about the softening effects of the relatively low hydration biga-like preferment. Usually, such preferments penalize extensibility. Maybe Tom is thinking of using commercial mixers or possibly softening effects due to lower acid production because of refrigeration of the preferment. Usually bigas are prefermented at room temperature.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2009, 02:57:57 PM »
Norma,

If you had subtracted 0.1% from 0.26%, you would have gotten 0.16%, not 0.25%. Tom's description was not entirely clear about whether the 0.1% IDY was with respect to the preferment flour or the total flour. I assumed that it was with respect to the preferment flour (which is the standard method) since he says that the preferment should be added to the mixing bowl with "the full compliment (sic) of IDY ". In your case, the full complement of IDY would be 0.26% (as per your original recipe posted in this thread).

I must say that I have some doubts about the softening effects of the relatively low hydration biga-like preferment. Usually, such preferments penalize extensibility. Maybe Tom is thinking of using commercial mixers or possibly softening effects due to lower acid production because of refrigeration of the preferment. Usually bigas are prefermented at room temperature.

Peter

Peter,
You can see how my math lacking skills make this challenging for me.   :-\  I will remember what you just taught me the next time.

What do you suggest I do?  Do you think I should just make the preferment as stated the day before and then incorporate into my regular formula for Lehmann dough on Monday?  That could give me a higher hydration, right?  ???

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2009, 03:27:27 PM »
Norma,

What day do you actually make the pizzas, Monday or Tuesday?

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2009, 04:31:13 PM »
Peter,
I make the pizzas, Tuesday.
Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2009, 04:50:30 PM »
Norma,

For now, I would go with the method described by Tom Lehmann. He doesn't say when you should start the preferment but I think the relatively low hydration of his preferment should allow you to start the preferment Sunday morning, put it in the deli case until the next morning (Monday morning), make the final dough on Monday morning, and put the finished dough balls into the deli case for use on Tuesday, in your usual manner. It might also be possible to start the sequence on Saturday morning and give the finished dough balls two days of cold fermentation instead of one. That might give you even more crust flavor.

I think it is hard to get softness and good extensibility in a dough when everything (the preferment and finished dough) is of relatively low hydration. However, the best way to get an answer on this point is to make some test dough and see for yourself. If the dough is too stiff as you are making it, you can always add more water.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2009, 05:09:19 PM »
Peter,
I will try the dough as planned before.  Make the preferment Sunday and add to the other ingredients on Monday. 
Yes, I agree the only way to find out is to test and see what happens.
Thanks,
Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2010, 11:37:08 AM »
I am following this thread with great interest as I've also been thinking about trying preferments myself. Also, I am familiar with Normas pizza. I may just stop by on Tuesday to see the results first hand.
Keep up the good work!

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2010, 11:53:04 AM »
Steve,
Stop over anytime in the day.  I will save one or more dough balls so you can taste the finished pizza and how this preferment worked out.  I really have reservations about this preferment.  ::)  We all can learn together.
Thanks,
Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2010, 02:24:55 PM »
I was wondering if I used Napoli Antimo Caputo tipo "00" to make my preferment, would this flour have a high enough protein content to try for my first preferment?  I have part of a bag left over and was just wondering if this might be okay.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2010, 03:00:48 PM »
Norma,

It's your call, but from what you have indicated to be your objective I think I would go with the all-KASL approach for your first preferment try for the Lehmann NY style. If you don't like the results, then there are many other possible options, including using a Caputo-KASL flour blend. I used November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ and it says that a blend of 1/3 Caputo flour and 2/3 KASL flour will have an effective protein content of 13.445%. Such a blend should still yield decent crust color and it may also be more amenable to a lower hydration value.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:26:39 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2010, 06:10:40 PM »
Peter,
Thank you for your advise and using Novemberís Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator. 
I will go ahead as planned.  I just wanted to know if this ratio would also work with the different protein levels for a first preferment.
I will proceed with the KASL preferment tomorrow.
Norma
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Offline torontonian

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2010, 02:01:46 PM »
Peter,

There was a Lehmann recipe that you had posted previously that used a poolish preferment. I used it and remember thinking the results were excellent. Forgetting to bookmark it, I've searched the NY forum high and low but can't find it. I'm thinking it may have been sandwiched into another thread somewhere.

By chance do you know the one?

If it helps to understand what I am trying to do, here are the key points. I plan to:

- Use an initial poolish and create a dough that will cold ferment overnight
- Use a flour blend using VWG to boost the protein to a 14 or so percent level
- Cook on a stone at about 650 degrees

What I would like to find is bakers percents that will produce a good result given the above. Can you suggest something or point me to the thread I previously used?

Thanks so much.

-- Josh

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2010, 02:55:49 PM »
Josh,

You've got me scratching my head on this one. I have made so many different doughs that I sometimes forget that I have made some of them. I did modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to use preferments but the only dough formulations I posted on the forum used natural preferments and, if memory serves, the preferments did not have the consistency of poolish preferments. I did attempt a poolish version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation on a couple of occasions using commercial yeast but I did not post the dough formulations because I was not crazy with the results. I showed one of the pizzas using a poolish version of the Lehmann NY dough formulation at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2571.msg22380/topicseen.html#msg22380, but, as you will see in that post, I did not post the dough formulation itself. I did suggest a poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation to another member, at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1593.msg14545.html#msg14545, but I did not try the dough formulation myself.

I have also borrowed preferment principles from Tom Lehmann and others and incorporated those principles in various dough formulations. One example of a modification of the Lehmann dough formulation to use a biga-like preferment is described at Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239. I also used a sponge method borrowed from Tom Lehmann to modify a version of the JerryMac NY style dough formulation, at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814. A short while ago, I suggested a dough formulation using a poolish preferment to Mike (Essen1), at Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83972.html#msg83972, but the dough formulation in that case was not a modification of the Lehmann dough formulation but rather borrowed preferment (poolish) principles suggested by Didier Rosada.

Maybe the above links will jog your memory further.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2010, 09:53:36 PM »
Thanks Peter.

None of these are exactly the one I was thinking about, but great reads nontheless. I was thinking of one that used a standard Lehmann recipe, without added sugar, barley malt or otherwise. Thinking about it again, I may have just followed a poolish recipe and applied it to the standard Lehmann recipe. If I recall, the thread you posted specified poolish breakdowns (primarily yeast content) for 3, 8, and 24 hour poolishes. I might be wrong about the 3, 8, and 24 but it was something along those lines. I used the 8 hour and liked the result.

What might you recommend in terms of the goals? I say poolish, as thats the only preferment I've tried, but would be open to a sponge, biga, etc.

Quote
If it helps to understand what I am trying to do, here are the key points. I plan to:

- Use an initial poolish and create a dough that will cold ferment overnight
- Use a flour blend using VWG to boost the protein to a 14 or so percent level
- Cook on a stone at about 650 degrees

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2010, 10:17:10 PM »
Josh,

Since Norma started this thread with a particular objective in mind, I would rather await her results before taking the thread off in too many directions and hijacking her thread. If you'd like to start a new thread with whatever objectives you would like to explore, we can address them in that thread. In the meantime, maybe I can find the poolish posts you mentioned in your last post.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2010, 01:19:29 PM »
Norma,

For your information, I discovered from a search yesterday that I had, in fact, posted a poolish version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6588.msg56632.html#msg56632. Given that I was not particularly impressed with the results of that formulation, it was presented for instructional/educational purposes only.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2010, 02:45:27 PM »
Peter,
Thank you for linking so I could see the preferment you used.  What were your conclusions as why the pizza tasted more like French Bread?  Do you think if you had used high gluten flour your results would have been the same?  Since you used 100% of the water for the poolish, do you think that was also a factor in getting a different result? Does a classical poolish always include 100% of the water? I donít know that much about making French Bread or poolish, so I am just asking questions

I did use the  biga today and was really surprised.  The dough seemed more hydrated than my normal Lehmann dough.  If fact, sticky..I had to add bench flour to be able to form the dough balls. The dough was very smooth.  Still canít figure that out.  I did take pictures, but have to go away for awhile. I will post the pictures, temperatures and how the dough was later, today.

Thanks,
Norma
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:47:00 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2010, 04:40:36 PM »
Norma,

After re-reading the post I referenced, and based on the date of that post, I apparently used the same approach as I used to make a version of JerryMac's highly successful NY style dough formulation (as discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html). The poolish for my original JerryMac dough formulation used 100% of the formula water, just as JerryMac used for his poolish-like preferment for his dough recipe. Based on the articles on preferments by Didier Rosada, technically my preferment was a poolish but, by his teachings, it should have constituted 20-80% of the total formula water. I was aware of that at the time but I was trying to see if I could achieve similarly successful results with my modification of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation as I did with JerryMac's. The answer is that I did not. Were I to re-do a poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I think I would use a different approach--one more consistent with the classic poolish method, just as I did with Essen1's dough formulation at Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83972.html#msg83972.

I am surprised by the stickiness of the dough you made using the biga. If you have a chance sometime, can you post the entire dough formulation you used and the amounts of ingredients you used to make the poolish and the final mix? If you took the weight of the finished dough, that would also be helpful.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2010, 05:45:15 PM »
Peter,
Thanks you for referencing those articles.  I would read over them.  I thought my dough today would be dryer than my normal Lehmann dough.  The only thing I can think of that might influenced my preferment was I used my new Taylor digital scale to prepare the biga.  I am not too thrilled with it and might take it back. 
Since it was cold at market today, I had to use my hot plate to warm the water. For my normal dough.  I wanted to get a finished dough temperature of between 80-85 degrees F., but it is hard to get an exact temperature with it being so cold at market. I did need to incorporate a little flour to make the dough balls.  Four of the dough balls were oiled and put into plastic containers.  The fifth dough balls was put into a plastic bag.  I did have a little dough left and just incorporated it into my normal Lehmann dough.

The temperatures from the normal dough were:
Water Temp:                 110 degrees F
Flour Temp:                    48 degrees F
Room Temp:                   48 degrees F
Finished Dough Temp:    77 degrees F

For the biga that was made yesterday morning at 8:00 I used a water temperature of 90 degrees, mixed and left on counter for 15 minutes and then into the fridge until this morning at 8:00.  I had been checking on the biga and it didnít look like it had changed.  I left it out of the fridge for 3 hours.  When the biga was incorporated into the dough at 11:00 am this morning it still didnít change. Just looked like flour on the bottom and water in the top.  I did stir the biga before incorporating into the dough.

Dough used KASL

Flour (100):                       1601.05 g     56.47 oz.    3.53 lbs
Water (56%)                        896.59 g     31.63 oz.    1.98 lbs.
IDY (0.25%)                               4 g 0.14 oz 0.01 lbs. 1.33 tsp 0.44 tbsp.
Salt (1.75%)                            28.02g 0.99 oz. 0.06 lbs 5.84 tsp 1.95 tbsp
Oil (1%)                                  16.01 g 0.56 oz. 0.04 lbs. 3.56 tsp. 1.19 tbsp
Total (159%)                      2545.67 g 89.79 oz. 5.61 lbs. TF=0.08932
Single Ball:                           509.13 g 17.96 oz. 1.12 lbs

used a thickness factor of 0.088
pizza size 16"

Preferment Biga used KASL

Flour (100%)            528.85 g 18.65 oz. 1.17 lbs.
Water (50%)             264.42 g 9.33 oz. 0.58 lbs
IDY (0.1%)               0.53 g 0.02 oz 0 lbs 0.18 tsp 0.06 tbsp
Total (150.1%)          793.8g 28 oz 1.75 lbs TF=N/A

entered in dough weight per ball 28 oz. for biga

Maybe you can come to some conclusions as what might have happened by looking at the formula and pictures.  I will proceed with the dough being made into the pizza, tomorrow.

Thanks,
Norma
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:52:24 PM by norma427 »
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