Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

That crust looks amazing, Norma.  Very colorful toppings, too. 

I don't think I can hold off now until Saturday for pizza! 

-ME

ME,

Thanks for saying that the crust looks amazing.  I really like this dough.  LOL..I will be looking forward to seeing you post your next pie. 

Thanks,

Norma

[norma427]

Steve gave me a copy of his formula he used for the whey, for both the whey in the final dough and also total whey in the formula.  He said I could post it.

If you can't read it, let me know if someone is interested, I will figure it out and then post the numbers.  I just scanned the paper he gave me.

Norma

[Ev]

Norma,



It would be interesting to see photos of Steve's (Ev's) pizzas using the same recipe (as modified to use the whey liquid) but baking the pizzas in his home oven.

Peter

Peter,
 
 I'll try to post these at some point. I have 6 balls of this recipe in the fridge but I won't be using them until Sat. 
 At that point they'll be almost a week old. Hopefully they won't over-ferment by then.

[Ev]

Actually Norma, Those pictures are not accurate. Both the pepperoni pies are yours. The last one, with the red and yellow peppers is my standard Lehmann style dough recipe, except using only only whey.  Not shown is the garlic alfredo pie, using a poolish made with water( about 1/3) and the remainder(about 2/3) of the liquid being whey.

[Pete-zza]

Steve,

I couldn't make out the numbers that Norma posted but it looks like you used the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. Did you use a natural poolish to make your version of the Lehmann NY style dough recipe that Norma has been using?

Peter

[norma427]

Actually Norma, Those pictures are not accurate. Both the pepperoni pies are yours. The last one, with the red and yellow peppers is my standard Lehmann style dough recipe, except using only only whey.  Not shown is the garlic alfredo pie, using a poolish made with water( about 1/3) and the remainder(about 2/3) of the liquid being whey.

Steve,

Hmm, I have to look though my pictures, again.  Didn't we make your one pie with pepperoni? Thanks for correcting me on the amount of whey you did use.  I had it written down, but must have messed it up.

Norma

[norma427]

Steve,

Now I remember what other kind of pie you made.  I thought I also took a picture of that pie, but it isn't in my pictures.  I think I continued to be a wreck yesterday, because of that darn video.     I was up most of the night Monday worrying about it.  Hope this week goes better. 

Thanks for refreshing my memory,

Norma

[Ev]

Peter,
 I used the calculator without totally understanding how it works. Using Normas' recipe as a guide, I loaded numbers and jockeyed them around until it looked right. I get hung up at the point where it asks for the preferments percentage of water. Anyway, what I came up with is basically this for a 4 ball batch, 16 inch pie single ball weight of 550 g

Total Flour   1342.59 g
Total Water(60%) 805.56 g
Total IDY .112%
Toal Salt 1.75%
Total O,oil 2%

Pre-f :
 Flour 277.2 g
water 282.8 g
IDY  1/4 t

Final Dough:
Pre-f
plus
Flour 1065.39
whey 422.76 g
IDY 1/4 t
salt & oil

[norma427]

Yesterday I made enough poolish for 60 lbs. of dough.  The ambient temperature at market was 68 degrees F.  The water temperature was also 68 degrees F. I mixed the poolish in the Hobart mixer with the flat beater. The poolish was then put into two Cambro containers. The poolish only took 40 minutes in the Hatco Unit to bubble enough for it to then go into the deli case.  The Hatco unit temperature was set at 110 degrees F.

Seems like my work is getting easier.   

Norma

[Steam]

Hi everyone, great site! How could I scale Norma's Tom lehmann's recipe without the poolish for 15 23oz dough balls. Thanks in advance.

[norma427]

Welcome Steam,

This is a great site, with so many pizzas.  I am not good at the math part to be able to figure out Tom Lehmann's formula for 15 23 oz. dough balls, but am sure someone else can figure it out for you.  What kind of thickness factor will you be using?  Also do you have any special flour in mind?  Do you want to make a NY style dough?

Thanks and I am sure you will like it here,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Steam,

Norma can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that she has been using, before converting it to a poolish format, is the one shown in the top one of the three sections at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226. If you enter the baker's percents from that dough formulation into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, using the Dough Weight option, and completing the entries required, you should be able to come up with the information you requested. If you will be using a stand mixer, you may want to use a bowl residue compensation (to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough) of 1.5%.

You won't need to use a thickness factor if you already know the dough ball weight you want, but the type of flour you use will be an important factor in the results you get using the dough formulation.

Peter

[norma427]

Steam,

Peter is right on the formula I was using before the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.

This is the Tom Lehmann dough forumla I was using when I started making pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71965.html#msg71965 I did then up the hydration.

Hope this helps,

Norma

[Steam]

I'll be using a old Hobart 30 qt mixer that only mixes on the second setting because the knob has been soldered. As for the flour I have access to the local pizza distributor called Labrada distributors and they have a high gluten flour witch I guess they get from the states and repackage under there name. I'm looking for a NY style dough with good dough elasticity. The dough I've been doing has been wrong all along until Norma told me about this site. The dough I made, used an empty can of Saporito sauce to measure the flour so I would put 3 cans of flour in the mixer with 1 can of water 5 ounces of sugar and 5 ounces of salt 2 ounces of granulated garlic 2.5 ounces of IDY and 5 ounces of vegetable oil, that alone is so wrong on so many levels. First I would put the dry ingredients including IDY in the bowl next the oil, water sifted it then added the flour and then to get mixed. After 8-10 minutes I would cut and ball about 13-15 dough balls but they would rise within 15-minutes. The dough would never be the same maybe really dry or really moist. Im trying to learn and atleast I've found this forum thanks to Norma and appreciate any help I can get.

Sean T. 

[norma427]

Sean,

I only have a 20 qt. Hobart mixer and only mix on speed one.  In regards to the flour, I am not familiar with what kind of protein content is in your flour.  Are you making this dough for a commercial pizza business?  If you are in my opinion you should get a scale that would weigh out your ingredients, and then learn how to manage your dough. I cold ferment my dough for one day, but others cold ferment for longer.

If you want to start a new thread and ask all these questions, others will also help you.  I am not an expert, but there are many people on this forum that are willing to help you achieve your goals.

I'll be using a old Hobart 30 qt mixer that only mixes on the second setting because the knob has been soldered. As for the flour I have access to the local pizza distributor called Labrada distributors and they have a high gluten flour witch I guess they get from the states and repackage under there name. I'm looking for a NY style dough with good dough elasticity. The dough I've been doing has been wrong all along until Norma told me about this site. The dough I made, used an empty can of Saporito sauce to measure the flour so I would put 3 cans of flour in the mixer with 1 can of water 5 ounces of sugar and 5 ounces of salt 2 ounces of granulated garlic 2.5 ounces of IDY and 5 ounces of vegetable oil, that alone is so wrong on so many levels. First I would put the dry ingredients including IDY in the bowl next the oil, water sifted it then added the flour and then to get mixed. After 8-10 minutes I would cut and ball about 13-15 dough balls but they would rise within 15-minutes. The dough would never be the same maybe really dry or really moist. Im trying to learn and atleast I've found this forum thanks to Norma and appreciate any help I can get.

Sean T. 

Sean,

After rereading your last post, there are different things about your dough formula, that may need to be looked at.  I also had problems when I first starting making the dough for pizza. I had skins that stretched back, dough that over-fermented, dough that was inconsistent and many other problems. There are so many variables that can go into making pizza dough.  Room temperature, water temperature, amount of hydration, levels of IDY, salt levels, finished dough temperature, how long it takes you to ball the dough, method of keeping dough cold, ferment time, bake time and temperature and many other variables can all come into play. I started with a regular scale, but since have switched to a digital scale. The scale now helps me to precisely weigh the ingredients in Baker’s percents. If you are going to be making larger quantities of dough, all these things will come into play even more.

As I said before, if you want to make a NY style pie, start a new thread under NY style or the Newbie section and ask for help. I did post under the Newbie section, when I started making pizza.  It took me a little while, but with the help of this forum I did get my issues with pizza dough resolved. I am still learning and will be for the rest of my life. Explain everything you have explained under this thread.   

At least you have come to the right place to get some of your problems resolved. If you are making your pizza for a business, then you might also want to register at PMQ think tank.

Best of luck,

Norma

[Ev]

Norma,

Thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress with the Lehmann poolish-based pizzas. They all look very inviting.

It would be interesting to see photos of Steve's (Ev's) pizzas using the same recipe (as modified to use the whey liquid) but baking the pizzas in his home oven.

Peter

Here are the pies I baked on Sunday. The dough was about 8 hours shy of one week old at this point.
 The first two pies were made using water for the poolish and whey for the rest(about 2/3) of the liquid.
 The next two are a basic Lehmann style recipe using whey for 100% of the formula liquid.
 To be honest, I don't think I could tell these apart, flavor-wise. Perhaps the extended fermentation equalized any difference there may have been. Both were soft and tender with an almost creamy, bread like texture. Probably more like American style than N.Y. style.
 After a week, the poolish dough had visabally risen about 30% more, even though it had 50% less yeast.

Sorry I didn't get more detailed in-depth photos. I had a lot of guests over and it was rather hectic.
 

[norma427]

Steve,

Your pies look delicious.  Good to hear the dough didn’t over-ferment for you.  You are sure a great manager of your dough. I bet the taste of the crust was delicious after the long ferment.  Most important...did your mother-in-law like your pies?

Thanks for sharing pictures of your pies,

Norma

[Ev]

Thanks Norma.  Mom said it was the best she ever tasted, but you know how moms can be! 

[Pete-zza]

Steve,

Terrific job. Thanks for posting your results.

Can you tell us how you baked the pizzas, i.e., the type of oven, stone position, temperatures, times, etc.?

Peter

[Ev]

Sure, I baked all these on an American Metalcraft, cordiarite(?), 5/8 x 16 stone, on the lowest position of my Maytag electric oven, pre-heated to 550 for an hour and a half, for eh?, 5 or 6 minutes, tops.