Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

Thanks Norma,
Do you know what the malt powder was trying to achieve?
I am looking to get back into this recipe.   I am looking to reduce the puffiness a bit and go with more of a traditional NYC style that has a smaller cornicone and was wondering if you thought this should be achieved by just removing the 2nd stage yeast altogether or just reducing it a bit.  I also have a lot of King Arthur italian flour (their version of a 00) and I am looking to use this receipe with that type of flour knowing I will need to adjust the water amounts to balance it's lower protein levels.

Brian,

I was trying malt powder to see if the addition of malt powder could help the crust coloration as also can be seen that I tired added malt powder on the thread I am now working on making a milk kefir dough with a poolish. 

This is what Peter posted about the addition of malt powder, on the thread I am working on now at Reply 144 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117493.html#msg117493

At Reply 146 is where I added the malt powder, with limited results in better crust coloration.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117612.html#msg117612

I have also tried honey in the other thread I am working on now, also with limited results.  I am now trying baker’s grade dairy whey to see if that will help crust coloration issues.  At some point I might also try dairy whey in one dough ball for the preferment Lehmann dough, if I get good results in the experiment I am trying now.

Do you mean by removing the 2nd state yeast to not use a poolish or not putting as much poolish in the formula?

I really don’t know how your King Arthur Italian flour will work in this formula or a version of this formula.

Norma

[briterian]

I was mentioning that there is yeast in the poolish and then when you add the poolish to the rest of the ingredients more yeast is pitched.  I was curious if one could avoid the 2nd stage yeast or just reduce it a bit and see if that might reduce the puffiness. What do you think?

[norma427]

I was mentioning that there is yeast in the poolish and then when you add the poolish to the rest of the ingredients more yeast is pitched.  I was curious if one could avoid the 2nd stage yeast or just reduce it a bit and see if that might reduce the puffiness. What do you think?

Brian,

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.  I really don’t think the IDY can be avoided in the final mix, but could be lessened if you want the final dough to ferment more slowly over more days than I do.  That would be a really long dough to make.  The IDY addition to the final dough is in the amount so the dough will be ready to used after a cold ferment of one day.  I think if I would handle this dough more rough, and not be careful of opening the dough, the rim wouldn't be as puffy.  I am not sure though, because I never tried really punching down on the rim, before adding the dressings.

The IDY is almost used up in the poolish after 3 days of cold fermentation.  I have never seen this poolish fall, (like a classic poolish does) but I could believe it would after more days of cold fermenting.  I couldn’t go to market today, because my water heater at home broke, so I do still have my poolish I made last Friday in my deli case. I only left it there to do a test on the poolish, if I still can.  I am going to go to market either tomorrow or Thursday (depending on the snow we now are getting in our area), and either take a small amount out to try in one dough ball or possibly try a larger batch in 5 dough balls, if the poolish still is bubbling.  I have never tried to let the poolish for this final dough go more than 3 days, but would think the IDY would be almost all used up in that time frame. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

One thing that should be kept in mind that the King Arthur Italian-style flour is an unbleached, unbromated, unmalted. low-protein (8.5%) red winter wheat flour (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-italian-style-flour-3-lb). The addition of diastatic malt might help extract more sugar from the starch to help with crust coloration and to feed the yeast. However, the formula hydration may need lowering in order for it to work in the preferment Lehmann dough formulation that Norma has been using. That might require re-doing all of the baker's percents if the same final dough weight is to be retained. It might also be necessary to add some sugar to the formulation and maybe increase the amount of oil. Brushing the unbaked rim might also help.

I have no idea as to how the KA clone 00 flour will perform in the Lehmann preferment dough formulation, even if diastatic malt is added. The only way to know if it will work, and to what degree, is to make a dough and pizza out of it.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I went to market to see if the poolish was still good to use for two doughs. (one with added dairy whey and without).  I took two pictures at market of the poolish and one since I have returned home.  I am going to make the 2 doughs and then freeze them after cold fermenting one day to try at market this coming Tuesday.

What I wanted to ask you is, do you have any other ideas for experiments to do with the extra poolish I will have left over. Right now I can’t think of anything to do with the poolish.

Pictures of the poolish that still looks good to me.

Norma

[briterian]

Thank Peter.   Wanna give a starter recipe and I'll report back?   I'd like to only use malt powder and no surgar as stage one.

[Pete-zza]

Wanna give a starter recipe and I'll report back?   I'd like to only use malt powder and no sugar as stage one.

Brian,

The preferment Lehmann dough formulations I devised for Norma came out of a lot of trial and error and a lot of math and manipulation of numbers using pencil and paper. So, I am not certain what a "starter" recipe might look like that uses the King Arthur Italian-Style flour. Can you give me an outline of what you would like to achieve, including the ingredients that you would like to use, the fermentation protocol you want to use (e.g., room temperature, in the refrigerator, a combination, etc.), the window of usability of the dough (i.e., when you want to use the dough to make a pizza), and the size of pizza you want to make? I assume that you will want to use a poolish preferment, as does Norma. I don't know if I will be able to devise a dough formulation based on your criteria but I won't know until I see what the criteria are.

An alternative to the above would be to come up with a basic dough recipe based on the KA Italian-style flour and diastatic malt and leave to you to use the Rosada articles referenced earlier in this thread to adapt the dough recipe to a preferment version.

Peter

[norma427]

I did four, really five experiments with the poolish from market.  The first experiment I used dairy whey in the preferment Lehmann dough.  The second experiment I used non-fat dry milk powder in the preferment Lehmann dough.  The third and fourth experiments I did with the poolish were high hydration doughs, that I am letting room temperature ferment.  The last experiment I did, which would be the fifth, was I just added salt to some poolish and left it sit for awhile and then dumped the poolish into a deep-dish pan that was oiled.  That experiment didn’t go to well, because although the dough did rise, while in the oven, I either think I had the dough too thick or either I pulled it out of the oven too soon.  The middle of the poolish pizza didn’t get baked enough.  I don’t think anyone would be interested in seeing the poolish pizza, because the crumb looks too gummy.    One failure and 4 more to go.

These are the pictures of how the poolish looked when I pulled some out of the container and the 2 two balls one with added dairy whey and one with added non-fat dry milk powder.

Norma

[briterian]

Hi Pete,
I was just going to follow your recipe and up the % flour in the preferment and also in the 2nd stage and add some malt powder so that the final hydration is around 58-59%.  I also was thinking of adding some semolina flour at the 2nd stage.  THis is the kind of malt powder I bought...I hope that is the right kind.

http://www.grocersfind.com/cooking-baking-supplies/sugars/10229-now-foods-barley-malt-mix-powder-24-ounce-bags.html
Sorry I can't more specifically answer your questions about temp. etc.  I hope the final dough temp is around 75-80 degrees and I will let it rest uncovered in the fridge for about 90 minutes before sealing it up.

[norma427]

I forgot to mention in my last post that I took the pH reading of the large amount of poolish when I returned home from market.  The pH was 5.52.  I also took the final dough pH of the added dairy whey dough and the non-fat dried milk powder dough.  The pH of the dairy whey dough ball was 6.01 and the pH of the non-fat dried powdered milk dough was 5.97.  I don’t know why the final dough were different in pH numbers. 

The big part of the poolish I had used last night to make a poolish pizza, I had fed 1 gram of yeast (after I made the failed poolish pizza) to let it sit out at ambient room temperatures over night to see what would happen.  That part of the preferment Lehmann dough poolish could be formed into a dough ball last evening, after sitting for over 2 hours. This morning it has grown again and is more bubbly than before.  Now the pH of the preferment Lehmann dough poolish is 5.47.  I wonder if any members of this forum have keep a regular poolish going at room temperature without adding any extra flour and then have been able to make a successful pizza. I would think at some point the yeast would run out of nutrients from the flour. The pH numbers haven’t changed too much since I brought it home from market.  I don’t know if I am going to try to make another poolish pizza with the extra dough or not, but this dough reminds me of different high hydration bread doughs I have tried before.  I thought I would include the pictures of the failed poolish pizza, so if anyone had tired this before they could compare what happened with my failed pizza with theirs.  The failed poolish pizza did rise as can be seen, but then fell when I removed it from the oven.  It also can be seen how the crumb is gummy looking.

Other picture is poolish this morning with the added 1 gram of IDY.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

THis is the kind of malt powder I bought...I hope that is the right kind.

http://www.grocersfind.com/cooking-baking-supplies/sugars/10229-now-foods-barley-malt-mix-powder-24-ounce-bags.html

Brian,

From the description of the barley malt powder, it appears that it may be the non-diastatic form, not the diastatic form. Non-diastatic malt is a sugar substitute. You might want to call the supplier or do further research to determine for sure which form of the malt you have.

On the matter of preferment, is there a reason why you want to use more flour in it? That would push the preferment from a poolish to something like a sponge or biga. When Norma used a biga, she did not get the desired results with the preferment Lehmann formulation.

With respect to the semolina, is there a particular percent you want to use, measured with respect to the total flour blend?

Peter

[briterian]

Hi Pete,
I'd be fine keeping the poolish ingredients exactly the same. I was just trying to compensate for the lower protein level. I guess I can make that compensation during stage 2.  Why don't I do this.   Take your recipe for 1 dough (maybe double it for 2 pies) and add about 1-2 tsp of malt powder and not change anything else and document it carefully and see how it turns out and report back here. 

[Pete-zza]

Brian,

That's fine. However, unless your malt is diastatic, it will act as a sweetener, without enzymatic activity to convert damaged starch to sugars. Also, since the KA Italian-style flour contains only 8.5% protein, you may want to reduce the total formula hydration, perhaps to something around 57% if you also use semolina. The more semolina you use, the higher the formula hydration should be. To the extent you make changes, you may want to note them for future purposes.

Peter

[briterian]

Ok.  I'll assume it's not diastatic and probably throw it away.   The site is not clear and is it safe to assume that no one ever uses diastatic as a sweetner?  I'll just stick with barley syrup or honey.

Thanks!

Description:
Barley Malt is a natural sweetener derived from an extract of sprouted barley. As a sugar substitute, Barley Malt is a natural whole food. We blend 1% maltodextrin (from corn) to limit clumping and allow for free flowing. Maltodextrin is a pure carbohydrate that is a synergistic and complementary sweetener. NOW provides a full line of unique sweeteners including Beet Sugar, Date Sugar, Dextrose, Fructose, Lactose, Maple Syrup, Sorbitol, Turbinado and Xylitol Sugars. NOW also produces full lines of vitamins, herbs, pure cosmetics, whole grains, and flours.

[Pete-zza]

Brian,

I found the website for the NOW malt that you purchased, at http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/M004076.htm. I found the description that you provided but I also saw the following:

Suggested Use:NOW Barley Malt Sweetener can be used to substitute for up to half the sugar content in baked recipes.  It is also tasty and useful in hot cocoa or carob and malted milk shakes.

The above Suggested Use tells me that you have the non-diastatic form of malt. You wouldn't use diastatic malt for the above suggested uses. Diastatic malt in enzyme-based and works to release sugar from damaged starch molecules in the flour. The end result is an increase in sugar but it, itself, is not a sugar. You can read more about the two forms of malt in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#D and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#N. You can see an example of a diastatic malt product at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz.

I wouldn't throw away the NOW malt product. It is just a dry form of the liquid non-diastatic malt and can be also be used as a sugar substitute, although you may have to do some experimenting with it to find its best uses. You can also use the NOW product to make bagels. See, for example, Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg113617.html#msg113617 and also later posts in the same thread.

Peter

[norma427]

I took the pH of both dough balls last evening before I froze them.  The pH of the dairy whey powder dough ball was 6.22 and the pH of the non-fat dried milk powder dough ball was 6.21.  I don’t see how the pH numbers could have become less acidic.  I never saw that before after letting a dough ball cold ferment.  Usually a dough ball becomes more acidic when cold fermenting.

I also wanted to note that the dough ball with the added non-fat dried milk powder seems to have increased in volume more than the dairy whey dough ball.  I don’t know why that is either.  I should have done the “poppy seed” trick to see if my eyes were deceiving me, but I didn’t.

Pictures of both dough balls before I took pH of both of them and then froze them until Tuesday.

First two pictures are of dairy whey powder added to dough ball, top and bottom.
Second two pictures are of non-fat dried milk powder added to dough ball, top and bottom.

Norma

[norma427]

Since I didn’t like to see all the poolish go to waste from my preferment Lehmann dough I had decided to do a few experiments on the poolish in different doughs.  The first experiment with the poolish pizza was a failure, so I thought what harm could it do to mix different doughs and see what would happen.  I mixed all three of these doughs Wednesday evening.  I let all three doughs room temperature ferment for about 14 hrs. and then cold fermented them until this evening.  The first pizza made tonight was the lightest in texture.

The first pizza I just put in any ingredients in with the poolish that I thought might work.  I did write down what ingredients I had used.  The second pizza was another poolish pizza that really had a high amount of poolish in the mixture. It was so sticky I didn’t think I could load it into the oven, because it kept sticking to the peel. When I loaded it into the oven, the pizza almost slid off of the steel pan and then stuck to the steel pan. The third pizza was the same formula I had tried out on my Sicilian thread, but I used the preferment Lehmann dough poolish in the formula instead of milk kefir.  These were all high hydrations doughs I tried with the poolish.

I didn't dress these pies with anything special, because I sure didn't know how they would turn out.  They all were dressed with fresh rosemary, thyme, sage, sea salt, oregano, and cherry tomatoes.

If anyone is interested, these are the pictures of the experiments I did with the leftover poolish.  The first picture is of the remainder of the poolish that almost died until this morning.  I had left it on my kitchen table to see how long it would take to almost completely fall.  The other pictures are in progression of the explanations I gave above.  At least the preferment Lehmann dough poolish did work okay in these pizzas.  I also decided to bake all three of these pizzas on the upside down steel pan, since I did have good results with using an upside down steel pan last evening at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12662.msg123240.html#msg123240

At least I learned some things from these experiments.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma