Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza (Read 95938 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #760 on:** January 29, 2011, 09:22:43 PM »

rest of pictures

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #761 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:08:32 AM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on January 28, 2011, 10:27:44 PM

Norma,

Tom may not know how his NY style recipe is being used all around the world, with a lot of credit to this forum for popularizing his recipe. To give you an idea, I spoke a few months ago with Thompson Ly, one of our members who moved to South China a few years ago to start a pizza business based on a NY style dough. At the time, he asked me for my help. I suggested Tom's NY style dough formulation and worked with him to refine it. Thompson now has three stores, with plans to open more. And he is still using Tom's recipe. Thompson told me that he is now known for his pizza throughout all of China. You can see his menu at http://www.nypdpizza.com.cn/.

I have no problem with Tom knowing about the Lehmann thread. As I noted recently in the Slice interview (at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/who-is-pete-zza-from-pizzamaking-com.html#continued), I credited Tom for his influence on my pizza development. And you were a beneficiary of what I learned from Tom, with your use of the original Lehmann dough formulation and the preferment Lehmann formulation at market.

Peter

Peter or anyone that might be interested,

I did send Tom Lehmann a PM and told him about the Tom Lehmann thread and how it has reached a milestone and also how you helped a man in China to become successful with the Lehmann formula. This is what Tom replied back this morning.

Sent: 31 Jan 2011 13:55
From: Tom Lehmann
To: norma427

Norma;
Wow! I don't know what to say. I'm truly humbled by the notariety.
I'm just glad that I'm able to help so many people, and what is so astonishing is that there are so many people out there like you passing it on to others.
It truly makes one proud to be a part of such a great industry.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom Lehmann is a great man. He has shared his knowledge with so many people and he is still humble. My hat is off to Tom.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #762 on:** January 31, 2011, 01:27:36 PM »

Norma,

Thanks for posting Tom's reply.

I am pretty sure that Thompson told me that at one time he reached out to Tom Lehmann for advice on some matter relating to his business. He also used to reach out to pizza operators for advice on the business side of his operation. Unfortunately two of his best sources went out of business.

I neglected to mention that before you came onto the forum I started a thread on Thompson's use of Tom's recipe in China, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5476.msg46215.html#msg46215.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #763 on:** January 31, 2011, 07:08:15 PM »

Peter,

I never saw that thread you had started on Thompson using the Lehmann recipe in China. I throughly enjoyed the article you referenced about Thompson and even how he decided to name his pizza businesses. Thompson even foresaw what happened in the US economy. He had an export and import business before he decided to open his pizzeria. His experiences with running Papa John’s outlets did prepare him for operating his own pizza businesses. I liked the part about Thompson developing his secret recipes. Thompson didn’t even display any of his awards for his pizzas because he was so low-profile. I can see Thompson was well prepared for opening his own pizza business in another part of the world. I think Tom Lehmann, Thompson and you are a lot alike. All of you are humble and don’t expect anything in return for all your contributions to the pizza making world.

Thanks for linking the article.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #764 on:** January 31, 2011, 07:22:38 PM »

Norma,

It is rare to find someone in the pizza business who doesn't claim to use secret recipes. If you didn't post your preferment Lehmann recipe, it, too, would be a "secret" recipe, but with greater justification compared with most recipes I know of that are far simpler and basic than yours. If you were Italian, you would be saying that you are using "secret" recipes from Italy. I've never heard anyone in the pizza business say that they are using secret recipes from places like Poland or Turkey. It's always from Italy. In Thompson's case, however, he maintains tight control over all of the processes, including dough formulation and sauce recipes (he prepares and controls the spice blends). Intellectual property laws in China are far less developed than in the U.S., with lax enforcement, so one has to be extra cautious to protect trade secrets and other property rights.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #765 on:** January 31, 2011, 07:56:20 PM »

Peter,

I know it’s rare to find someone in the pizza business that doesn’t say they use a secret recipe. Even our small pizza businesses in our area wouldn’t ever give out how they prepare their doughs. Almost all the independent pizza businesses in our area have Italian owners, and they all think their doughs are the best, but I have found out otherwise since I have been on this forum. I am a small pizza business and I wouldn’t ever care if someone would copy any pizzas doughs I make. I don’t think many would want bother with a poolish preferment and wouldn’t have the time to spend on one either.

I can understand Thompson’s has to use a tight control over all his processes. He wouldn’t be unique if he didn’t.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #766 on:** February 02, 2011, 10:49:44 PM »

I tried one experimental preferment Lehmann dough ball with the leftover poolish from market. I have a Cuisinart spice & nut grinder. I used Spring Wheat Prairie Gold 10% (23.45 grams) and ground pecans 10% (23.45) KASL 80% (187.6 grams) and added some extra water (120 grams) altogether in the mix, because the Prairie Gold and ground nuts did make the dough drier. I used the same amount of poolish and the rest of the ingredients. I mixed the dough yesterday and baked the pie this evening. I ground the Prairie Gold and the pecans in my spice and nut grinder.

This was the most different crust I have tried so far. It had a slight taste of pecans, which I thought tasted good. I have tried Prairie Gold in a pie I made before in the basic Lehmann thread.

This pie was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, a blend of white cheddar and mozzarella, grape tomatoes that were slightly fried in olive oil with herbs, red and green peppers and after the bake a small amount of basil was placed in the middle of the pie.

Pictures below

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #767 on:** February 02, 2011, 10:52:06 PM »

rest of pictures

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #768 on:** February 05, 2011, 08:53:26 AM »

Peter,

I have a question to ask you, but I don’t know if you will be able to answer it or not. I might just have to do the experiment to find out. I had used my leftover preferment Lehmann poolish from market last week to make a Tartine Bread at Reply 653 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg125507.html#msg125507

I then put a small amount of poolish into the refrigerator. I want to try and make a Tartine Bread again with the poolish made last Friday (the poolish was then ready to used by last Monday). These are two pictures of how the poolish looks this morning. Do you think the poolish is still unable? The bubbles aren’t as big and the gluten isn’t as formed as when I used the poolish to make the Tartine bread. I was just wondering if you ever heard of someone using a poolish and being successful after a longer time.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #769 on:** February 06, 2011, 11:40:37 AM »

Norma,

I have been tied up with visitors who have come into Dallas for the Super Bowl game so I haven't been around to post.

I think the risk of using a poolish that has been allowed to preferment too long is that there may be excessively high acid levels that might adversely affect the dough (in terms of extensibility) and the finished crust (off flavors). There may also be depletion of sugar levels in the dough as yeast levels decline, requiring you to use a bit more yeast as part of the final mix. But you are correct that the only way to really find out what the effects are is to to actually use the poolish to make the bread.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #770 on:** February 06, 2011, 02:01:18 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 06, 2011, 11:40:37 AM

Norma,

I have been tied up with visitors who have come into Dallas for the Super Bowl game so I haven't been around to post.

I think the risk of using a poolish that has been allowed to preferment too long is that there may be excessively high acid levels that might adversely affect the dough (in terms of extensibility) and the finished crust (off flavors). There may also be depletion of sugar levels in the dough as yeast levels decline, requiring you to use a bit more yeast as part of the final mix. But you are correct that the only way to really find out what the effects are is to to actually use the poolish to make the bread.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know what you think about using the old poolish. I might add more yeast in the final dough and see what happens. I had looked on the internet and on the forum and couldn’t see where anyone had tried an old poolish before. I know the ideal time to use a poolish is at least at the break point. I was contemplating what might go wrong and haven’t tried the poolish yet to make a dough. This afternoon the poolish is almost fallen altogether. I might try the old preferment Lehmann poolish in a dough for the Tartine bread to see what happens. If I ever can get the Tartine Bread with a preferment Lehmann dough poolish down okay, I might make panini’s at market with the Tartine Bread. It also depends on if I can make a suitable size loaf and the it bakes well in the deck oven with my deck height limitations. Since my deck oven isn’t very high that poses more problems.

Have a nice time with your friends during the Super Bowl.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #771 on:** February 07, 2011, 08:15:18 AM »

I made the Tartine bread dough with the old preferment Lehmann poolish yesterday and used 75 grams old poolish and 40 grams of Ischia starter, that I recently revived. I had kept 1 container of Ischia starter in the refrigerator for a long while, just to see if it could be revived. The Ischia starter wasn’t fully revived, when I used it. The old poolish that had almost stopped bubbling still felt like it had before. (it was springy and almost felt like a Pizzarium dough) I have no idea how the dough will bake into bread, but so far it feels and looks okay.

Picture of Ischia starter before I revived it (2/05/2011) and pictures of dough with old preferment poolish added this morning top and bottom of dough for an attempt at Tartine Bread.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #772 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:24:06 PM »

I baked the Tartine bread with the old preferment Lehmann dough poolish and from the two bakes today, I don’t think I will be able to make the Tartine bread in my deck oven. For one thing the deck is too low and another thing is because I keep my oven temperatures higher, I don’t think the higher temperatures are good for a Tartine bread. The ends of the bread did bake well, but the middle of the bread was more dense.

I had cut the one dough to try in the bake. I had trouble getting the one loaf out of the oven. I had cut the first loaf so it could rise, but somehow the one end sprang faster than the other end. I don’t know why that happened. The one loaf was more in a longer shape and the other loaf was in a round shape. The longer shaped loaf did turn out better.

At least the old preferment Lehmann poolish did work well to make this dough rise in combination with the Ischia starter and the bread did taste good. I had one slice of the Tartine bread that was brushed with garlic and herb infused olive oil and then heated with mozzarella. I enjoyed that slice.

Pictures below

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #773 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:25:24 PM »

end of pictures

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #774 on:** February 14, 2011, 06:27:00 PM »

Well, I made a big leap today. I put dairy whey in a 15 lb. batch of dough. If this doesn’t work out okay tomorrow I am in big trouble.

My other doughs were regular though.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #775 on:** February 15, 2011, 09:44:17 PM »

I used most of the dough balls with added dairy whey today. The crust did brown better, but I am not still sure if they added dairy whey does make my pizzas look better. The crust didn’t taste any different than when I didn’t use dairy whey. I had added more water to the 15 lb. batch of dough because it had felt drier. The skins did feel a little bit drier with the added dairy whey when opening the doughs. The crumb didn’t taste any moister than my regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas. I did save a few dough balls to freeze to see what happens to the frozen dough balls when they are rethawed.

Pictures of some of the pies made today with the added dairy whey. The last pictures are one Greek-style pizza, a Sicilian pizza made with the preferment Lehmann dough and an experimental Nutella pie with cultured butter dotted around the edges all without added dairy whey.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #776 on:** February 15, 2011, 09:47:03 PM »

more pictures

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #777 on:** February 15, 2011, 09:49:21 PM »

end of pictures

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #778 on:** February 15, 2011, 10:40:28 PM »

Norma,

It sounds like you have made some decisions on what you would like to make at market on a regular basis.

You have been on quite a culinary journey, starting on April 8, 2009 when you asked me for help in coming up with a NY style dough formulation (www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.0.html). That was the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. In due course, that led to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation. That became the mainstay of the pizzas you made at market while you experimented with other variations, including the use of wa dave's milk-based sourdough mix, the Ischia Lehmann starter/preferment dough formulation and the Lehmann milk kefir preferment version. Most recently, you tried using dried dairy whey as a way of improving the crust coloration of your Lehmann crusts. Of course, along the way you also came up with 101 ways of using the Lehmann dough, including what appears to be credible Greek and Sicilian style pizzas based on the Lehmann dough. You have made many incredible pizzas along the way. And I think it is safe to say that we and others on the forum have learned a lot from what you did.

Have you settled on what you would like to make at market on a regular basis, and what forms your pizzas will take beyond the basic NY style? And are there other styles that you would like to offer?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #779 on:** February 15, 2011, 11:20:47 PM »

Peter,

It has been a good journey from my first post about asking you how to make a basic Lehmann dough and learning from there to where I am now. This almost past two years has had it share of challenges, but they all taught me something more about dough. I think my decision now is to stay with the preferment Lehmann dough. I have it down pat and it does create a delicious pizza and I can also make many other things from the same dough. After I was thinking about it today, I don’t think my market customers would notice the difference if I went to a natural preferment dough. I can’t really tell that much difference myself. The crumb structure is different and the taste of the crust is better to me, but most of my customers never tried a natural preferment crust.

I don’t know if I will be able to make a Pizzarium style pizza at market, but have been working on using basically the same dough in my last attempt as my preferment Lehmann dough, but using a higher hydration and more oil in the dough. It will be a challenge to make a Pizzarium style pizza from this same dough. Do you have any ideas on if this might work or not? I recently found I can use this same poolish and it works well. I just need to get down how to handle the dough. If I could get this down okay, then I could use the same poolish as I make on Fridays. Do you also have any other ideas of what I can do with the preferment Lehmann dough?
I think I have come to the conclusion that making a natural preferment Lehmann dough at market it not going to work, but I never would say never.

Thanks for helping me though all the other experiments to be able to come to my decision now.

Norma