Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 152479 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #750 on: January 28, 2011, 08:07:09 PM »
After mixing my poolish today for the preferment Lehmann dough at market, I was pondering after watching how the poolish develops many times in the past over the three day period and then seeing how strong the gluten gets from just letting it cold ferment.  When I take the poolish out of the container it is very bubbly and the strands of gluten are very strong.  I never saw the poolish fall at market while cold fermenting.  It makes me wonder, if this is also how a long fermented dough can develop gluten over about 4 days or more.  This thinking was just related to the thread I am also working on trying to make a pizza like Pizzarium.  I would think that a dough like is used for a pizza in teglia, would form the tight gluten bonds during the long cold ferment, just by letting it cold ferment.  I also saw in my experiments with the preferment Lehmann dough poolish different things could happen differently with different doughs that were made from just the poolish the other week.  I donít know if anyone might agree with me or not, in letting a dough ferment (either cold or bulk room ferment) and then the gluten getting stronger just by itself after mixing to the right point, but they are in my thoughts now.

On another note, I did send Tom Lehmann a PM this morning and told him the first experiment at market with the 4% added dairy whey did give the crust great coloration, because he had asked me to let him know how my experiments worked with the added dairy whey. I did tell Tom Lehmann I was going to do a few more experiments with the added dairy whey at market, before I would decide to use dairy whey all the time in my dough.  I also gave him the link to the preferment Lehmann pizza with the added dairy whey incase he wanted to see the pictures of the pizza.  I donít know if Tom Lehmann looked at the pictures of the pizza with added dairy whey or not, but Tom Lehmann did PM me this afternoon.  This is what he said.

Norma;
The best part of using whey to get the crust color is that the lactose sugar in the whey (this is the sugar responsible for the darkening of the crust color when using whey) in not fermentably be the yeast, hence, it is not affected by any additional fermentation that the crust might receive after it leaves your control, making it great for take and bake applications.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

After Tom Lehmann reply, I now wonder how I should reply back to his PM.  I always wanted to make a take and bake pizza at market, but always had limited results, in varying degrees.  I never thought about a take and bake while using dairy whey and what effects dairy whey would have on a take and bake pizza.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #751 on: January 28, 2011, 08:44:42 PM »
Norma,

What Tom told you about the benefits of whey is well known on the forum. See, for example, the entry for dried dairy whey in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#D. When Steve (the owner of the forum) and I were composing the Pizza Glossary, I am sure that I wrote the dried dairy whey entry based on what Tom had written somewhere. I believe what he means to say with respect to the take-and-bake pizza is that the lactose in the dairy whey won't get used up by the yeast even if the purchaser doesn't use the take-and-bake pizza for some time. It is common and well known that purchasers of take-and-bake pizzas don't always follow the directions for use. For example, I discussed several forms of take-and-bake abuse by purchasers at Reply 349 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg21166/topicseen.html#msg21166. Since the lactose remains in the dough, even with customer abuse, it will still provide crust coloration when the user eventually gets around to baking the pizza.

If you are interested in a take-and-bake dough, whether it includes dairy whey or not, you might follow up with Tom to see what he now suggests as a decent take-and-bake product. In the past, he has referred inquiries on take-and-bake to the PMQ Recipe Bank. Maybe things have changed since then. I would perhaps keep the request generic on the take-and-bake and then ask about the possibility of using dairy whey.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #752 on: January 28, 2011, 09:31:38 PM »
Peter,

As long as I have been on this forum, I even sometimes forget what I have read on the Pizza Glossary.  I am sure you are right as to what Tom meant to say. 

The same concerns you had with take and bakes in the link you referenced are my concerns about a take and bake, when I was trying different attempts for a take and bake.  My normal preferment Lehmann dough is made for use the day I use the dough.  I tried different ways before of making a take and bake and none of them were as successful as I wanted.  I even par-baked the crust at one point.  I also have a concern about making a take and bake and the skin wanting to stick to a round if a customer tries to remove it. 

I do sell some dough balls to customers, but donít advertize I do any longer, because I know if someone lets the dough in the refrigerator for more than 2 additional days, they might have problems with trying to open the dough.  I have intentionally left a dough ball in my refrigerator at home to see what would happen in an extra two days.  I can open the dough, but donít think a person that doesnít make pizza that much could open the dough. 

I will follow-up with Tom to see what he now suggests as a decent take and bake product.  I will also let Tom know what milestone his Tom Lehmann thread has now reached.  I am sure he would be proud to know how many times that thread has been viewed.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #753 on: January 28, 2011, 09:43:13 PM »
I will follow-up with Tom to see what he now suggests as a decent take and bake product.  I will also let Tom know what milestone his Tom Lehmann thread has now reached.  I am sure he would be proud to know how many times that thread has been viewed.

Norma,

I have never told Tom about the Lehmann thread. I was afraid he would yell at me for all the things I did with his recipe and dough and start singing the song at   :-D.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #754 on: January 28, 2011, 10:01:16 PM »
Norma,

I have never told Tom about the Lehmann thread. I was afraid he would yell at me for all the things I did with his recipe and dough and start singing the song at   :-D.

Peter

Peter,

That song gave me a good chuckle and especially since you never told Tom Lehmann what you did with his dough formula!   :-D I thought you might have mentioned the Tom Lehmann thread to him before. Do you really think Tom Lehmann would think you ďturned his dough formula upside downĒ?  If you donít want me to mention the milestone to Tom, I wonít.  Tom seems like a good natured man.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #755 on: January 28, 2011, 10:27:44 PM »
Norma,

Tom may not know how his NY style recipe is being used all around the world, with a lot of credit to this forum for popularizing his recipe. To give you an idea, I spoke a few months ago with Thompson Ly, one of our members who moved to South China a few years ago to start a pizza business based on a NY style dough. At the time, he asked me for my help. I suggested Tom's NY style dough formulation and worked with him to refine it. Thompson now has three stores, with plans to open more. And he is still using Tom's recipe. Thompson told me that he is now known for his pizza throughout all of China. You can see his menu at http://www.nypdpizza.com.cn/.

I have no problem with Tom knowing about the Lehmann thread. As I noted recently in the Slice interview (at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/who-is-pete-zza-from-pizzamaking-com.html#continued), I credited Tom for his influence on my pizza development. And you were a beneficiary of what I learned from Tom, with your use of the original Lehmann dough formulation and the preferment Lehmann formulation at market.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #756 on: January 28, 2011, 10:46:49 PM »
Peter,

I didnít know you helped a man in China with a Lehmann formula.  From the link you referenced there are so many kind of pizzas.  Some of them are different than in the US.  I couldnít imagine eating a pizza with Ziti, but it might be good.  To think that man went on to open 3 pizzerias.  I bet you are also proud how well he did after you helped him.  I enjoyed looking at his menu and also what he called his pizzerias.  The picture on the right side of his pizzas sure look like a NY style pizza. 

I know I was a beneficiary of what you learned from Tom.  I will let him know about the milestone since you donít mind.  I might even tell him about the man in China that has become successful with his formula with your help.  Tom seems to be a very modest man.  If he says anything about his dough formula being so popular I will post what he says. 

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #757 on: January 28, 2011, 11:08:54 PM »
Norma,

I think Thompson was in his mid-twenties when he left for China. He is an entrepreneur with a good head on his shoulders. He has also been consulting with other companies that want to open up pizzerias because he now knows how to do it. He said that about 80 percent of his business is with expats, so the NY style goes over very well there. He imports pallets of canned tomatoes from the U.S. at multiples of what we pay in the U.S. but he is still profitable, mostly because of the low labor costs in China. I am happy for him. Nothing would please me more than to see him make it big time. He has always expressed his gratitude for my having helped him. When we last spoke (he said it was 3 AM his time), I offered to help him tweak the Lehmann formulation based on what I learned about the NY style since he started using it (I was thinking of a thinner crust). He told me that he and his customers liked his pizza very much as is and added that "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".

Peter




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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #758 on: January 28, 2011, 11:22:02 PM »
Peter,

I am also happy for Thompson.  He really sounds like a great entrepreneur.  I wish him much more success if he does consulting now.  Thompson sounds a lot like Tom Lehmann in his modest gratitude and even talking to you at 3am his time.  Tom Lehmann has always been kind to me and although I have asked him many questions, he still takes the time to answer my questions even if I am a small business.  Thompson must also have the same attitude as Tom has in "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".  That phrase alone does sound like Tom. 

Thanks for telling me about Thompson and how he has succeeded.  I enjoy hearing a story like that.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #759 on: January 29, 2011, 09:19:40 PM »
From a little leftover piece of preferment Lehmann dough I unfroze for a Greek-style pizza, I decided to make a little boat or something similar.  I stretched the small piece out and then dressed it with my regular tomato sauce, Parmesan cheese, and mozzarella.  The little boat was baked right on my pizza stone at around 500 degrees F.  After the little boat was baked I used my fresh basil I had started from a piece of fresh basil in the fall.  I have been feeding this bunch of fresh basil milk kefir, while in a pot with dirt and it seems to be doing well. 

I also used the preferment Lehmann dough to make a Greek-style pizza, after the advice of Peter (Pete-zza) for trying the preferment Lehmann dough for a Greek-style pizza.  The preferment Lehmann dough did work out well for a Greek-style pizza. 

This is where I posted the other pictures of the Greek-style pizza and also posted how I made the Greek-style pizza at Reply 143  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg125069.html#msg125069               

Now the preferment Lehmann dough has two more things it can be used for.  I am glad the preferment Lehmann dough did work out for a Greek-style pizza. 

After making the little boat, I can see this would be a good way to make individual pizzas for more people.  It doesnít have to be cut, (to be able to eat the little boat) but I did cut the little boat, just so the inside crumb could be seen.  The little boat was quick to make out of the leftover dough.

Pictures of little boat and some pictures of Greek-style pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #760 on: January 29, 2011, 09:22:43 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #761 on: January 31, 2011, 09:08:32 AM »
Norma,

Tom may not know how his NY style recipe is being used all around the world, with a lot of credit to this forum for popularizing his recipe. To give you an idea, I spoke a few months ago with Thompson Ly, one of our members who moved to South China a few years ago to start a pizza business based on a NY style dough. At the time, he asked me for my help. I suggested Tom's NY style dough formulation and worked with him to refine it. Thompson now has three stores, with plans to open more. And he is still using Tom's recipe. Thompson told me that he is now known for his pizza throughout all of China. You can see his menu at http://www.nypdpizza.com.cn/.

I have no problem with Tom knowing about the Lehmann thread. As I noted recently in the Slice interview (at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/who-is-pete-zza-from-pizzamaking-com.html#continued), I credited Tom for his influence on my pizza development. And you were a beneficiary of what I learned from Tom, with your use of the original Lehmann dough formulation and the preferment Lehmann formulation at market.

Peter

Peter or anyone that might be interested,

I did send Tom Lehmann a PM and told him about the Tom Lehmann thread and how it has reached a milestone and also how you helped a man in China to become successful with the Lehmann formula.  This is what Tom replied back this morning.


Sent: 31 Jan 2011 13:55
From: Tom Lehmann
To: norma427

Norma;
Wow! I don't know what to say. I'm truly humbled by the notariety.
I'm just glad that I'm able to help so many people, and what is so astonishing is that there are so many people out there like you passing it on to others.
It truly makes one proud to be a part of such a great industry.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom Lehmann is a great man.  He has shared his knowledge with so many people and he is still humble.  My hat is off to Tom.  :chef:

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #762 on: January 31, 2011, 01:27:36 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for posting Tom's reply.

I am pretty sure that Thompson told me that at one time he reached out to Tom Lehmann for advice on some matter relating to his business. He also used to reach out to pizza operators for advice on the business side of his operation. Unfortunately two of his best sources went out of business.

I neglected to mention that before you came onto the forum I started a thread on Thompson's use of Tom's recipe in China, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5476.msg46215.html#msg46215.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #763 on: January 31, 2011, 07:08:15 PM »
Peter,

I never saw that thread you had started on Thompson using the Lehmann recipe in China. I throughly enjoyed the article you referenced about Thompson and even how he decided to name his pizza businesses.  Thompson even foresaw what happened in the US economy.  He had an export and import business before he decided to open his pizzeria.  His experiences with running   Papa Johnís outlets did prepare him for operating his own pizza businesses.  I liked the part about Thompson developing his secret recipes.  Thompson didnít even display any of his awards for his pizzas because he was so low-profile. I can see Thompson was well prepared for opening his own pizza business in another part of the world.  I think Tom Lehmann, Thompson and you are a lot alike.  All of you are humble and donít expect anything in return for all your contributions to the pizza making world.

Thanks for linking the article.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #764 on: January 31, 2011, 07:22:38 PM »
Norma,

It is rare to find someone in the pizza business who doesn't claim to use secret recipes. If you didn't post your preferment Lehmann recipe, it, too, would be a "secret" recipe, but with greater justification compared with most recipes I know of that are far simpler and basic than yours. If you were Italian, you would be saying that you are using "secret" recipes from Italy. I've never heard anyone in the pizza business say that they are using secret recipes from places like Poland or Turkey. It's always from Italy. In Thompson's case, however, he maintains tight control over all of the processes, including dough formulation and sauce recipes (he prepares and controls the spice blends). Intellectual property laws in China are far less developed than in the U.S., with lax enforcement, so one has to be extra cautious to protect trade secrets and other property rights.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 07:25:01 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #765 on: January 31, 2011, 07:56:20 PM »
Peter,

I know itís rare to find someone in the pizza business that doesnít say they use a secret recipe.  Even our small pizza businesses in our area wouldnít ever give out how they prepare their doughs. Almost all the independent pizza businesses in our area have Italian owners, and they all think their doughs are the best, but I have found out otherwise since I have been on this forum.  I am a small pizza business and I wouldnít ever care if someone would copy any pizzas doughs I make.  I donít think many would want bother with a poolish preferment and wouldnít have the time to spend on one either.

I can understand Thompsonís has to use a tight control over all his processes.  He wouldnít be unique if he didnít.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #766 on: February 02, 2011, 10:49:44 PM »
I tried one  experimental preferment Lehmann dough ball with the leftover poolish from market.  I have a Cuisinart spice & nut grinder.  I used Spring Wheat Prairie Gold 10%  (23.45 grams) and ground pecans 10% (23.45) KASL 80% (187.6 grams) and added some extra water (120 grams) altogether in the mix, because the Prairie Gold and ground nuts did make the dough drier.  I used the same amount of poolish and the rest of the ingredients.  I mixed the dough yesterday and baked the pie this evening.  I ground the Prairie Gold and the pecans in my spice and nut grinder. 

This was the most different crust I have tried so far.  It had a slight taste of pecans, which I thought tasted good.   I have tried Prairie Gold in a pie I made before in the basic Lehmann thread.

This pie was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, a blend of white cheddar and mozzarella, grape tomatoes that were slightly fried in olive oil with herbs, red and green peppers and after the bake a small amount of basil was placed in the middle of the pie. 

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #767 on: February 02, 2011, 10:52:06 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #768 on: February 05, 2011, 08:53:26 AM »
Peter,

I have a question to ask you, but I donít know if you will be able to answer it or not.  I might just have to do the experiment to find out.  I had used my leftover preferment Lehmann poolish from market last week to make a Tartine Bread at Reply 653 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg125507.html#msg125507

I then put a small amount of poolish into the refrigerator.  I want to try and make a Tartine Bread again with the poolish made last Friday (the poolish was then ready to used by last Monday).  These are two pictures of how the poolish looks this morning.  Do you think the poolish is still unable?  The bubbles arenít as big and the gluten isnít as formed as when I used the poolish to make the Tartine bread.  I was just wondering if you ever heard of someone using a poolish and being successful after a longer time.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #769 on: February 06, 2011, 11:40:37 AM »
Norma,

I have been tied up with visitors who have come into Dallas for the Super Bowl game so I haven't been around to post.

I think the risk of using a poolish that has been allowed to preferment too long is that there may be excessively high acid levels that might adversely affect the dough (in terms of extensibility) and the finished crust (off flavors). There may also be depletion of sugar levels in the dough as yeast levels decline, requiring you to use a bit more yeast as part of the final mix. But you are correct that the only way to really find out what the effects are is to to actually use the poolish to make the bread.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #770 on: February 06, 2011, 02:01:18 PM »
Norma,

I have been tied up with visitors who have come into Dallas for the Super Bowl game so I haven't been around to post.

I think the risk of using a poolish that has been allowed to preferment too long is that there may be excessively high acid levels that might adversely affect the dough (in terms of extensibility) and the finished crust (off flavors). There may also be depletion of sugar levels in the dough as yeast levels decline, requiring you to use a bit more yeast as part of the final mix. But you are correct that the only way to really find out what the effects are is to to actually use the poolish to make the bread.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know what you think about using the old poolish.  I might add more yeast in the final dough and see what happens.  I had looked on the internet and on the forum and couldnít see where anyone had tried an old poolish before.  I know the ideal time to use a poolish is at least at the break point.  I was contemplating what might go wrong and havenít tried the poolish yet to make a dough.  This afternoon the poolish is almost fallen altogether.  I might try the old preferment Lehmann poolish in a dough for the Tartine bread to see what happens.  If I ever can get the Tartine Bread with a preferment Lehmann dough poolish down okay, I might make paniniís at market with the Tartine Bread.  It also depends on if I can make a suitable size loaf and the it bakes well in the deck oven with my deck height limitations.  Since my deck oven isnít very high that poses more problems. 

Have a nice time with your friends during the Super Bowl.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #771 on: February 07, 2011, 08:15:18 AM »
I made the Tartine bread dough with the old preferment Lehmann poolish yesterday and used 75 grams old poolish and 40 grams of Ischia starter, that I recently revived.  I had kept 1 container of Ischia starter in the refrigerator for a long while, just to see if it could be revived.  The Ischia starter wasnít fully revived, when I used it. The old poolish that had almost stopped bubbling still felt like it had before. (it was springy and almost felt like a Pizzarium dough) I have no idea how the dough will bake into bread, but so far it feels and looks okay.

Picture of Ischia starter before I revived it (2/05/2011) and pictures of dough with old preferment poolish added this morning top and bottom of dough for an attempt at Tartine Bread.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #772 on: February 08, 2011, 09:24:06 PM »
I baked the Tartine bread with the old preferment Lehmann dough poolish and from the two bakes today, I donít think I will be able to make the Tartine bread in my deck oven.  For one thing the deck is too low and another thing is because I keep my oven temperatures higher, I donít think the higher temperatures are good for a Tartine bread.  The ends of the bread did bake well, but the middle of the bread was more dense. 

I had cut the one dough to try in the bake.  I had trouble getting the one loaf out of the oven.  I had cut the first loaf so it could rise, but somehow the one end sprang faster than the other end.  I donít know why that happened.  The one loaf was more in a longer shape and the other loaf was in a round shape.  The longer shaped loaf did turn out better.

At least the old preferment Lehmann poolish did work well to make this dough rise in combination with the Ischia starter and the bread did taste good.  I had one slice of the Tartine bread that was brushed with garlic and herb infused olive oil and then heated with mozzarella.  I enjoyed that slice.

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #773 on: February 08, 2011, 09:25:24 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #774 on: February 14, 2011, 06:27:00 PM »
Well, I made a big leap today.  I put dairy whey in a 15 lb. batch of dough.  If this doesnít work out okay tomorrow I am in big trouble.  ::) My other doughs were regular though.

Norma
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