Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 138594 times)

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #820 on: April 29, 2011, 11:04:15 PM »
Norma,

If the 3.6 pounds of water is added to the final mix, without changing anything else, then I estimate that the total formula hydration is a bit over 63%. It may be that you are on the cusp where the results can go one way or the other without warning. Maybe you have to go to considerably higher hydration before you can be sure of getting the results you are looking for when resorting to reballing.

Peter


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #821 on: April 29, 2011, 11:26:41 PM »
Norma,

If the 3.6 pounds of water is added to the final mix, without changing anything else, then I estimate that the total formula hydration is a bit over 63%. It may be that you are on the cusp where the results can go one way or the other without warning. Maybe you have to go to considerably higher hydration before you can be sure of getting the results you are looking for when resorting to reballing.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me about what you think the hydration is I am using now.  I am not going to fool around with the reball anymore, because I didnít like the way that dough behaved.  It kept wanting to stretch back and not open right.  The week I had the most problems was a week that the temperature at market was really warm when I was mixing, balling, and reballing the dough.  I donít know if that was part of the problem or not, but the dough balls wanted to really ferment too fast when letting them warm-up.  I had better luck just taking them out of the cooler or deli case and opening them.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #822 on: April 29, 2011, 11:31:05 PM »
Well, tonight was one of those pizza making nights that everything seems to go wrong.  :-D I had wanted to try out my steel pan to bake a pizza on that I had purchased last Saturday.  I hadnít thought of measuring the steel pan, before I defrosted one frozen dough ball.  When I went to place the steel pan in the oven it was 1 Ĺ inches to big for the oven.  I tried every which way to place it in the oven, with no luck.  I then was thinking of some other way to try out the defrosted dough ball.  I decided to try a combination of my pizza stone and another steel pan I have.  I placed the pizza stone on the middle rack and put the steel pan on the top rack, just to see what would happen.  I let the oven heat for over an hour and even had the broiler on some of the time.  I donít know what was going on with that combination of pizza stone and steel pan, but this was the longest bake of a pizza in my home oven.  This pizza took over 11 minutes to bake.  That is a long time.  I also tried something else I hadnít tried before with this pizza.  I loaded the pie into the oven with my metal peel.  That almost was a disaster.  The pie almost slid onto the oven rack instead of the pizza stone. 

The pizza was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, my regular blend of mozzarella cheeses, EL Abuelto mozzarella cheese and Dietz &Watson pepperoni.  The pizza was okay, but not like I would have like it to be.

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #823 on: April 29, 2011, 11:32:29 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #824 on: May 14, 2011, 10:48:17 PM »
I know I try the craziest stuff sometimes, but when I went to market yesterday to make my poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough and also do some cleaning, I found a leftover dough ball that must have been pushed back in my pizza prep refrigerator, from Tuesday. The dough ball really smelled like alcohol. I always turn the pizza prep refrigerator off before I go home from market to save on the electric bill.  I also always open the door on the bottom and the lid on top of the pizza prep refrigerator so it doesnít get moldy.  When I went to clean in the inside of the bottom of the fridge, I found this sad looking dough ball.  It looked like it had really overfermented.  At first, I was going to throw it out, but thought I would do an experiment on it.  

I opened the plastic bag and put some IDY on the flattened dough ball, then did reballing with a little flour.  I then took the dough ball along into Lancaster.  It sat out for about 2 hrs.  I then reballed again after I returned home with a little more flour.  This morning, I did another reball, and the dough looked like it was okay. I floured the outside of the dough ball.  After I finished making another pizza today I thought I might as well use this dough ball and see if it could be baked into bread. I donít have any useful things to score bread with so I just used a little Exacto knife.  I also got my steam cleaner out to try and steam the dough.  I donít have any regular bread making equipment, but just used a Pyrex mixing bowl to place over the dough on the heated pizza stone.  I lifted the glass Pyrex bowl about 5 times and really steamed the dough ball.  That was about in a 15 minute time frame.  I then let the dough ball keep baking on the pizza stone, until the middle of the bread measured about 210 degrees F on my thermometer.  I was surprised that the old sad looking overfermented preferment Lehmann dough ball did turn into bread. What really surprised me is how good this bread tasted and there wasnít even any sour taste in the bread.  ;D

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 10:56:43 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #825 on: May 14, 2011, 10:53:46 PM »
more pictures

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #826 on: May 14, 2011, 10:55:14 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #827 on: May 18, 2011, 08:39:59 AM »
A few pictures of the preferment Lehmann dough pies, made though the course of yesterday.  As can be seen, the pizza looks can change, depending on the time of day, how long the pie is in the oven, how the dough is opened, and many other factors.  I still believe each pie has its own ďfinger printĒ even though it came from the same dough batch, depending on many factors.

I personally like the darker rim pies, but my customers are more used to a lighter rims.  Even though there is a darker rim, the bottom of the crust wasn't burnt.  The picture of the pie with the darker rim was just left in the oven a little longer.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #828 on: May 18, 2011, 06:33:32 PM »
Norma, I like the darker rim pies as well.  The last one you posted looks outstanding!  Did you taste a slice of that pie and how was it?

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #829 on: May 18, 2011, 09:43:38 PM »
Norma, I like the darker rim pies as well.  The last one you posted looks outstanding!  Did you taste a slice of that pie and how was it?


Chau,

Thanks for saying you like the darker pie!  I didnít taste a slice of that pie, but would like my pies darker like that pie, but most customers prefer lighter crust pies.  If there are two pies, one a little darker and one light, most customers would choose the lighter pie.  My guess is that most customers are used to NY style pies that do have lighter rims.  Even most pizza businesses near me have lighter rims.  I canít think of a single pizza business near me that has darker rims.  When it comes to bubbles in the rim, some customers like the bubbles and some donít..lol

I should have taken bottom shot pictures of those pies, but didnít.  The bottom picture was a pizza just baked about Ĺ minute longer. 

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #830 on: May 25, 2011, 08:43:18 PM »
This is something that has been bugging me for awhile.  The other time I thought I was having trouble with my poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough, I was thinking it might be the flour, that was making the poolish act differently. I noted the poolish at Reply 643 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112876.html#msg112876 and the browner crust pizzas and the poolish acting differently at Reply 623  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112128.html#msg112128 I never figured out why the poolish did act like it did (with a liquid layer on the bottom).  The only thing I noticed from using that poolish, was my crusts seemed to brown better.  Well, Friday when I went to clean and make my poolish at market, it was warmer and I was busy cleaning, stocking sodas, putting pizza boxes together, etc. and doing things, I normally do on Fridays.  I normally keep my Hatco Unit at about 120 degrees F, for the poolish to ferment.  It usually takes anywhere around 1 hour or a little more, for the poolish to start to bubble a little, before I put it in the deli case to ferment more, until I use it to make the final dough on Monday. Sometimes if the flour is colder, it can take a little longer, for the poolish to ferment.  I was busy cleaning and doing the other stuff, and almost forgot about the poolish fermenting in the Hatco Unit.  I was at market about a little over 2 Ĺ hours.  When I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit, I saw the poolish had fermented more (with bigger bubbles, than normal) and I thought, I hope the poolish lasts until Monday.  The poolish did last until Monday and looked about the same as usual, but had more big bubbles. There was no liquid on the bottom of the containers. I am timing my doughs, when using the Hobart mixer for the last few weeks, and the final dough seemed the same in every way.  When I went to start making pizzas Tuesday morning I was surprised that my rims did get browner.  This lasted though out the day.  I mentioned to Steve, that I wonder if because the poolish had fermented more in the first place and might have had more acidity, if that is why  my crusts were getting browner, even in the same amount of bake time and bake temperatures.  I am still not sure if this is why my crust did turn browner, but it will be interesting to watch and see what happens.  Steve and I were stumped by this.  I was always blaming my oven, for my crust not getting darker, but maybe it isnít my oven after all.

BTW, Lorenzo has been at market for the last three weeks and keeps telling me how good my pizzas look and I am doing a great job with them.  I have asked him all three weeks, if he wants to try a slice for free to see if he really thinks my crusts are good.  Each time, he tells me, I can tell they are good, I donít need to taste them.  He is still asking me to sell my little pizza stand to him.  I still canít figure out why he wants to buy my small pizza stand, when he already owns a much bigger pizza business.

Pictures of some of the pies made yesterday, mostly before 2 pm, but they all looked about the same.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #831 on: May 25, 2011, 08:45:51 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #832 on: June 02, 2011, 11:08:59 PM »
It was back to making the poolish the same way it was made before.  The crusts didnít brown as much as can be seen on these two photos on Tuesday.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #833 on: June 03, 2011, 11:08:16 PM »
How many of those do you make a day Norma?  Do they hold up very well and for how long?  I think they are tasty looking and I would snatch them up in a minute!!

John

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #834 on: June 03, 2011, 11:56:46 PM »
How many of those do you make a day Norma?  Do they hold up very well and for how long?  I think they are tasty looking and I would snatch them up in a minute!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas are tasty looking and you would eat one.  To answer your question on how many pies I make a day, it all depends on the weather, whether it is summer, spring, fall, winter, if tourists or school children are out of school and many other things.  The case the pizzas are in is a heated, humidified case.  The slices last up to 1 Ĺ hrs.  We always ask if a customer wants a slice reheated, because the crust does get softer when sitting in the case. 

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #835 on: June 06, 2011, 09:09:54 PM »
I am still trying to get to the bottom of why some crusts brown more than others when using the poolish part of the preferment Lehmann dough.  Last week I left the poolish only bubble to the point I always have.  This week I let the poolish ferment in the Hatco Unit for 15 minutes longer than last week. There were more bubbles on the surface on Friday. This is how the poolish part of the preferment Lehmann dough looked today, before I incorporated it into the final doughs.  Tomorrow I will see if there is any difference in how the crusts brown.

Two pictures of poolish top and side.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #836 on: June 06, 2011, 09:40:09 PM »
Norma,

Can you describe the characteristics of the latest Lehmann preferment and how it differs from the other Lehmann preferments you have been making? For example, it it more liquid? Are there any consistent attributes or characteristics of the Lehmann preferments that have resulted in reduced coloration?

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #837 on: June 06, 2011, 10:08:31 PM »
Norma,

Can you describe the characteristics of the latest Lehmann preferment and how it differs from the other Lehmann preferments you have been making? For example, it it more liquid? Are there any consistent attributes or characteristics of the Lehmann preferments that have resulted in reduced coloration?

Peter

Peter,

The characteristics really arenít that much different, from the other preferments I have made, except for the ones that I made that were watery on the bottom .  Today there was a little bit of watery substance on the bottom of the container, but not as much as a long while ago, when I thought my flour was to blame for the poolish being more watery.  A few weeks ago I had left the poolish (preferment) in the Hatco Unit longer than I usually do.  That is when my crusts browned more.  I am just watching now every week to see what makes the crusts brown more.  I started two weeks ago to just watch for little bubbles on the top of the poolish and this past Friday, I let the preferment bubble a little more.  I donít know if I ever will be able to find out what makes the crust brown more, or if when the preferment ferments more before the cold ferment of the preferment if that somehow then helps the crust brown more or not.

Norma
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Offline theppgcowboy

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #838 on: June 07, 2011, 12:06:28 AM »
Norma,
Have you ever let a preferment go for a couple of days, up to three, and then mix it in the morning for pies in the evening?  Also what have you settled on for your hydration.  I would also like to ask what is the best time in mixing the dough to add oil?  I have not really used oil, have you found oil to be a deal breaker with this recipe?

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #839 on: June 07, 2011, 06:56:18 AM »
Norma,
Have you ever let a preferment go for a couple of days, up to three, and then mix it in the morning for pies in the evening?  Also what have you settled on for your hydration.  I would also like to ask what is the best time in mixing the dough to add oil?  I have not really used oil, have you found oil to be a deal breaker with this recipe?

theppgcowboy,

The preferment Lehmann dough is usually the dough I use at market, but I also have used the preferment part at home for some experiments, such as starting at Reply 707 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123166.html#msg123166
The preferment amount can be fermented at room temperature( or in a oven or something similar) and used when the poolish is ready.  The only reason I let the preferment amount bubble a little and then put it in the cooler to ferment more, is because it was developed by Peter so it would fit my market schedule.  I canít get into market over the weekend, so the poolish is made on a Friday to be incorporated into the final dough on a Monday, then cold fermented for one day.

Peter figured out the hydration of what I had been using at Reply 820 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg137395.html#msg137395 but I have since lowered the water amount, since I am not trying the reballs anymore.  I would think my hydration is now about 62%.  The original formula Peter set-forth does work well.

I havenít tried mixing the preferment amount (up to a couple of days before), then making the pies the same day, in my normal operation.  I donít know if there would be enough fermentation activity, if the final dough is only left to ferment the same day (in a cooler or home refrigerator),  with the yeast amount in the final dough.  Maybe if the final dough is left at room temperatures, it might be able to be used in the same day.  I never tried that experiment.

The way I mix the oil in, is after the other ingredients are already mixed.  The oil is added last.  I never tried this formula without oil, so I donít know how that would work.  In my Hobart mixer I time the final mix (after the ingredients are already mixed) for 8 minutes, but that is for a whole batch of 15 lbs.  At home when I mix this dough it isnít for that long.

Norma
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