Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 138725 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #840 on: June 08, 2011, 07:06:28 AM »
Usually if there are leftover dough balls, of the preferment Lehmann dough, I freeze them and then used them the next week for garlic knots, pizza pinwheels, cheesy breadsticks, pizza buns, or Greek style pizza.  I found when making Greek style pizza out of the frozen dough balls, if I used my docker, the crust wonít puff up as much.  I decided to do another experiment with a dough ball that had been frozen and then thawed out at market.

I flattened a dough ball our (with the palm of my hand)  and used my pizza cutter to slice into strips.  I then rolled the strips of  dough.  The one dough strip I didnít dock and the other strip I did dock.  I prepared some Lancaster County hot dogs, that I bought at a market stand, by brushing them with oil infused garlic and a herb blend and slicing the top of the hot dogs.  They were then put into a pan and put into the deck oven, until they were cooked.  I then rolled each strip and folded each end in at the ends of the hot dogs.  The docked strip, did end up flatter than the strip that was just rolled and not docked, when baked.  Steve also made an experimental pizza hot dog with a rolled strip.  He added pizza sauce and mozzarella cheese before rolling the strip onto the hot dog.  Steve and I decided we liked the pizza dough hot dogs better that didnít include the pizza sauce and mozzarella.  The pizza dogs were baked on a screen and turned a little while baking. The finished pizza dogs were also brushed with more of the garlic herb infused oil. The pizza dogs could be dipped in melted better when finished. We just used mustard and pizza sauce to dip the pizza dogs in.   We preferred the mustard, when dipping, but I could imagine other ways to create a pizza dog.  I only cut the pizza dogs, so the insides could be seen, but the pizza dogs could be eaten without cutting.  If anyone has leftover dough, this can be a way of also using leftover dough or even fresh dough.  I am sure other doughs could also be used this way to create a pizza dog.  Steve and I only made three experimental pizza dogs, but more pizza dogs could be made out of one of my normal dough balls.

All in all, the experiment with the pizza dogs was successful.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #841 on: June 08, 2011, 07:10:52 AM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #842 on: June 08, 2011, 02:41:34 PM »
Norma
Mustard and sweet onions on the inside....that, would be killer to me!!!!  Those look damn good!!

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #843 on: June 08, 2011, 03:15:23 PM »
Norma
Mustard and sweet onions on the inside....that, would be killer to me!!!!  Those look damn good!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying you also think you would like pizza dogs. I would think children would really like the pizza dogs. If you ever try to make any, let me know how they turn out.  Your idea of mustard and sweet onions sounds really great to me.  :) I think there could be many combinations of dressings inside that might work. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #844 on: June 09, 2011, 08:19:47 AM »
The results were not conclusive in letting the preferment part of the Lehmann dough ferment for 15 minutes more.  The crusts did seem to brown better, but I am not sure if letting the preferment (poolish) part ferment a little longer and then cold fermenting the preferment for 3 days did help my crust or not.  I plan on letting the preferment part ferment another 15 minutes this Friday to see if there are any other developments with the crusts next Tuesday.

By reading over the Artisan Yeast Treatise again, I wonder how using a preferment (poolish) right before the break point does affect crust browning.  Since my preferment part never reaches the break point, I wonder how that works to brown the crust.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm

Some pictures of preferment Lehmann dough pies made different times of the day Tuesday.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #845 on: June 09, 2011, 08:58:52 AM »
Norma,

As you know from personal exchanges with Tom Lehmann, he often discusses how the pH, and and high acid production, penalizes crust coloration. An example of this position can be seen in one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64013. Also, as you know from what Professor Calvel had written, there is a fairly complex relationship between pH, residual sugar, the Maillard reaction and oven spring. If the problem is insufficient sugars to contribute to crust coloration, then one can consider measures that increase the amounts of sugar. Or, alternatively, if there is too much acid production, it might be possible to reduce it by altering the rate at which the preferment ferments, for example, by adding a small amount of salt to the preferment to slow things down rather than trying to shorten the prefermentation period, which might throw off your timetable, or allocating less of the formula yeast to the preferment.

Another point to keep in mind is that as the ambient temperatures change on a seasonal basis, that can affect the rate and extent of prefermentation of the preferment. However, I am not certain whether that is a factor in your case, especially if you were experiencing reduced crust coloration when it was cooler where you are.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #846 on: June 09, 2011, 10:05:02 AM »
Norma,

As you know from personal exchanges with Tom Lehmann, he often discusses how the pH, and and high acid production, penalizes crust coloration. An example of this position can be seen in one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64013. Also, as you know from what Professor Calvel had written, there is a fairly complex relationship between pH, residual sugar, the Maillard reaction and oven spring. If the problem is insufficient sugars to contribute to crust coloration, then one can consider measures that increase the amounts of sugar. Or, alternatively, if there is too much acid production, it might be possible to reduce it by altering the rate at which the preferment ferments, for example, by adding a small amount of salt to the preferment to slow things down rather than trying to shorten the prefermentation period, which might throw off your timetable, or allocating less of the formula yeast to the preferment.

Another point to keep in mind is that as the ambient temperatures change on a seasonal basis, that can affect the rate and extent of prefermentation of the preferment. However, I am not certain whether that is a factor in your case, especially if you were experiencing reduced crust coloration when it was cooler where you are.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the article from Tom.  I know there is a fairly complex relationship, between pH, residual sugar, the Maillard reaction and oven spring from Professor Calvel's writings.  I wonder if I start using my pH meter again to measure the acidity of the final dough if that might give me more clues of how the preferment (fermented at different times or different bubble amounts) does affect coloration.  I am still trying to figure out how long to let the preferment part of the preferment Lehmann dough ferment (in the Hatco Unit) to give the best crust coloration.

I know ambient temperatures do affect doughs in many ways, but I was having problems with crust coloration different times in this thread, whether it was hot or cold.  I try to keep my final dough within a few degrees of all my batches and keep my coolers set low. That seems to work out well and I had reduced my yeast in the final dough to. 0.24 %, since it is warmer in our area.  That also seems to work well with keeping the doughs from overfermenting while in my coolers, so I can use them in the morning or though out the day. I know Tom doesnít advocate reducing the yeast levels, but advocates a lower final dough temperature.  I have found that reducing the final dough yeast amount works better, at least for me.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #847 on: June 11, 2011, 09:05:26 AM »
I decided to start to take the pH numbers of the preferment, after it ferments in my Hatco Unit.  I will keep doing this for a few weeks to see if the pHís of the preferment, (after it ferments in the Hatco Unit, after it sits in the deli case for 3 days, and then the final dough pHís) can help me to understand how crusts do brown when using the preferment Lehmann dough.  I donít think this will lead to any new discoveries, but will see if I can find out anything about if pH levels do affect browning in some way.  I let the poolish (preferment) ferment for 15 more minutes this week.

Picture of the preferment right before it went into the deli case.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #848 on: June 13, 2011, 06:20:58 PM »
Well, I had another problem today, when trying to take the pH of the poolish (preferment) and final dough.  I removed the preferment from of the deli case and got my pH meter and wouldnít you know it, the batteries had almost died.  The poolish didnít look as bubbly as last week though.  When I was trying to take the four small batteries out of the pH meter, to see if I could juggle them around a little and make the pH meter work, one of the small batteries fell and rolled somewhere.  I searched for about 10 minutes and couldnít find it, and I knew I had to get started getting ready for market for tomorrow.  No more pH reading could be taken today, to see if I can learn anything from the pH readings.  I did record the pH reading from Friday though and it was 5.47 after the poolish had bubbled in the Hatco unit.  I will start to take pH reading again this coming Friday.  I finally did find the one small battery when I was cleaning up, but then it was too late to do anything.  ::)

Pictures of the poolish today.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #849 on: June 15, 2011, 07:50:32 AM »
Even though I didnít get a chance to take all the pH readings I wanted to, it seemed like the pizzas turned out well yesterday with letting the preferment ferment 15 minutes more in the Hatco unit.  They did brown well in my opinion.  I didnít have time to get a lot of crumb shots because we were busy.

These are pictures of some of the pizzas baked yesterday.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #850 on: June 15, 2011, 07:52:35 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #851 on: June 15, 2011, 07:54:01 AM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #852 on: June 17, 2011, 06:53:35 PM »
I bought new batteries for my pH meter this week.  Wow,  those batteries are expensive.  I let the preferment ferment for the same amount of time I did last week.  This week the pH of the preferment after fermenting in the Hatco Unit was 5.55.

Picture below

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #853 on: June 17, 2011, 11:16:46 PM »
If your pizzas taste as good as they look, your customers must be in heaven.  I especially like the way the bottoms look!!!  Beautiful!
John

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #854 on: June 18, 2011, 07:47:21 AM »
If your pizzas taste as good as they look, your customers must be in heaven.  I especially like the way the bottoms look!!!  Beautiful!
John

John,

Thanks so much for your kind words!  :) Peterís formula for the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas have served me well and customers do like the pizzas.  I had a hard time trying to get my deck temperatures to the right place to get the bottom browning.  I had played around with those temperatures for many months.  At first the deck temperatures were lower, but after reading on the forum how higher temperatures make better pies, in terms of oven spring, moistness in the crust, char, etc., I experimented with higher temperatures for awhile.  I think I have found that I like lower oven temperatures better overall, at least for making pizzas my deck oven.

Norma
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #855 on: June 18, 2011, 08:45:35 AM »
PH - Schme H, They all look so Good Norma!! and those diggity dogs as Ronzo says forgetaboutit!!
as mentioned  I dont know how anybody passes your stand!  :chef:
John
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 08:47:17 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #856 on: June 18, 2011, 11:49:22 AM »
PH - Schme H, They all look so Good Norma!! and those diggity dogs as Ronzo says forgetaboutit!!
as mentioned  I dont know how anybody passes your stand!  :chef:
John

John,

Thanks for the kinds words about the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and diggity dogs.  :) I know what Ron always says.  He always makes me chuckle when he says those words.  :-D There are loads of foods stands at market, where customers can eat..  I am only one of them, and am in the back part of the market, where not to many people get to. By the time some non regular people get to my stand, they have already eaten. 

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #857 on: June 18, 2011, 12:48:13 PM »
John,

Thanks so much for your kind words!  :) Peterís formula for the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas have served me well and customers do like the pizzas.  I had a hard time trying to get my deck temperatures to the right place to get the bottom browning.  I had played around with those temperatures for many months.  At first the deck temperatures were lower, but after reading on the forum how higher temperatures make better pies, in terms of oven spring, moistness in the crust, char, etc., I experimented with higher temperatures for awhile.  I think I have found that I like lower oven temperatures better overall, at least for making pizzas my deck oven.

Norma

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn...but I know one important guy who would agree with you about baking longer in a cooler oven..and that would be the Dough Doctor himself!!
John

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #858 on: June 18, 2011, 01:03:20 PM »
I hope I'm not speaking out of turn...but I know one important guy who would agree with you about baking longer in a cooler oven..and that would be the Dough Doctor himself!!
John

John,

You arenít speaking out of turn.  I did use a lower oven temperature when I first started making pizzas.  I just thought a higher temperature oven would somehow improve my pizzas, but found they really didnít, at least in my deck oven.  I do like higher bake temperature using some other doughs in the BBQ grill set=i[ or in a WFO.  I also think Tom would agree about lower bake temperatures in a deck oven.

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #859 on: June 18, 2011, 04:51:37 PM »
Norma - Just noticed your pizza dough hot dogs.  Those look great!  I might try that with a brat...

There is a French bakery here in town (Le Trompeau), that some mornings lately has had a REAL good a hot dog with emmentaler cheese wrapped in brioche dough with a dab of mustard.  The are real tasty.  Not sure why he started to do the hot dog thing along with his more traditional french breakfast croissant style.  The bakery just moved to a location about 3 min away too!