Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 163145 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #825 on: May 14, 2011, 10:53:46 PM »
more pictures

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #826 on: May 14, 2011, 10:55:14 PM »
end of pictures

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #827 on: May 18, 2011, 08:39:59 AM »
A few pictures of the preferment Lehmann dough pies, made though the course of yesterday.  As can be seen, the pizza looks can change, depending on the time of day, how long the pie is in the oven, how the dough is opened, and many other factors.  I still believe each pie has its own ďfinger printĒ even though it came from the same dough batch, depending on many factors.

I personally like the darker rim pies, but my customers are more used to a lighter rims.  Even though there is a darker rim, the bottom of the crust wasn't burnt.  The picture of the pie with the darker rim was just left in the oven a little longer.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #828 on: May 18, 2011, 06:33:32 PM »
Norma, I like the darker rim pies as well.  The last one you posted looks outstanding!  Did you taste a slice of that pie and how was it?

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #829 on: May 18, 2011, 09:43:38 PM »
Norma, I like the darker rim pies as well.  The last one you posted looks outstanding!  Did you taste a slice of that pie and how was it?


Chau,

Thanks for saying you like the darker pie!  I didnít taste a slice of that pie, but would like my pies darker like that pie, but most customers prefer lighter crust pies.  If there are two pies, one a little darker and one light, most customers would choose the lighter pie.  My guess is that most customers are used to NY style pies that do have lighter rims.  Even most pizza businesses near me have lighter rims.  I canít think of a single pizza business near me that has darker rims.  When it comes to bubbles in the rim, some customers like the bubbles and some donít..lol

I should have taken bottom shot pictures of those pies, but didnít.  The bottom picture was a pizza just baked about Ĺ minute longer. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #830 on: May 25, 2011, 08:43:18 PM »
This is something that has been bugging me for awhile.  The other time I thought I was having trouble with my poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough, I was thinking it might be the flour, that was making the poolish act differently. I noted the poolish at Reply 643 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112876.html#msg112876 and the browner crust pizzas and the poolish acting differently at Reply 623  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112128.html#msg112128 I never figured out why the poolish did act like it did (with a liquid layer on the bottom).  The only thing I noticed from using that poolish, was my crusts seemed to brown better.  Well, Friday when I went to clean and make my poolish at market, it was warmer and I was busy cleaning, stocking sodas, putting pizza boxes together, etc. and doing things, I normally do on Fridays.  I normally keep my Hatco Unit at about 120 degrees F, for the poolish to ferment.  It usually takes anywhere around 1 hour or a little more, for the poolish to start to bubble a little, before I put it in the deli case to ferment more, until I use it to make the final dough on Monday. Sometimes if the flour is colder, it can take a little longer, for the poolish to ferment.  I was busy cleaning and doing the other stuff, and almost forgot about the poolish fermenting in the Hatco Unit.  I was at market about a little over 2 Ĺ hours.  When I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit, I saw the poolish had fermented more (with bigger bubbles, than normal) and I thought, I hope the poolish lasts until Monday.  The poolish did last until Monday and looked about the same as usual, but had more big bubbles. There was no liquid on the bottom of the containers. I am timing my doughs, when using the Hobart mixer for the last few weeks, and the final dough seemed the same in every way.  When I went to start making pizzas Tuesday morning I was surprised that my rims did get browner.  This lasted though out the day.  I mentioned to Steve, that I wonder if because the poolish had fermented more in the first place and might have had more acidity, if that is why  my crusts were getting browner, even in the same amount of bake time and bake temperatures.  I am still not sure if this is why my crust did turn browner, but it will be interesting to watch and see what happens.  Steve and I were stumped by this.  I was always blaming my oven, for my crust not getting darker, but maybe it isnít my oven after all.

BTW, Lorenzo has been at market for the last three weeks and keeps telling me how good my pizzas look and I am doing a great job with them.  I have asked him all three weeks, if he wants to try a slice for free to see if he really thinks my crusts are good.  Each time, he tells me, I can tell they are good, I donít need to taste them.  He is still asking me to sell my little pizza stand to him.  I still canít figure out why he wants to buy my small pizza stand, when he already owns a much bigger pizza business.

Pictures of some of the pies made yesterday, mostly before 2 pm, but they all looked about the same.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #831 on: May 25, 2011, 08:45:51 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #832 on: June 02, 2011, 11:08:59 PM »
It was back to making the poolish the same way it was made before.  The crusts didnít brown as much as can be seen on these two photos on Tuesday.

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #833 on: June 03, 2011, 11:08:16 PM »
How many of those do you make a day Norma?  Do they hold up very well and for how long?  I think they are tasty looking and I would snatch them up in a minute!!

John


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #834 on: June 03, 2011, 11:56:46 PM »
How many of those do you make a day Norma?  Do they hold up very well and for how long?  I think they are tasty looking and I would snatch them up in a minute!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas are tasty looking and you would eat one.  To answer your question on how many pies I make a day, it all depends on the weather, whether it is summer, spring, fall, winter, if tourists or school children are out of school and many other things.  The case the pizzas are in is a heated, humidified case.  The slices last up to 1 Ĺ hrs.  We always ask if a customer wants a slice reheated, because the crust does get softer when sitting in the case. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #835 on: June 06, 2011, 09:09:54 PM »
I am still trying to get to the bottom of why some crusts brown more than others when using the poolish part of the preferment Lehmann dough.  Last week I left the poolish only bubble to the point I always have.  This week I let the poolish ferment in the Hatco Unit for 15 minutes longer than last week. There were more bubbles on the surface on Friday. This is how the poolish part of the preferment Lehmann dough looked today, before I incorporated it into the final doughs.  Tomorrow I will see if there is any difference in how the crusts brown.

Two pictures of poolish top and side.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #836 on: June 06, 2011, 09:40:09 PM »
Norma,

Can you describe the characteristics of the latest Lehmann preferment and how it differs from the other Lehmann preferments you have been making? For example, it it more liquid? Are there any consistent attributes or characteristics of the Lehmann preferments that have resulted in reduced coloration?

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #837 on: June 06, 2011, 10:08:31 PM »
Norma,

Can you describe the characteristics of the latest Lehmann preferment and how it differs from the other Lehmann preferments you have been making? For example, it it more liquid? Are there any consistent attributes or characteristics of the Lehmann preferments that have resulted in reduced coloration?

Peter

Peter,

The characteristics really arenít that much different, from the other preferments I have made, except for the ones that I made that were watery on the bottom .  Today there was a little bit of watery substance on the bottom of the container, but not as much as a long while ago, when I thought my flour was to blame for the poolish being more watery.  A few weeks ago I had left the poolish (preferment) in the Hatco Unit longer than I usually do.  That is when my crusts browned more.  I am just watching now every week to see what makes the crusts brown more.  I started two weeks ago to just watch for little bubbles on the top of the poolish and this past Friday, I let the preferment bubble a little more.  I donít know if I ever will be able to find out what makes the crust brown more, or if when the preferment ferments more before the cold ferment of the preferment if that somehow then helps the crust brown more or not.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #838 on: June 07, 2011, 12:06:28 AM »
Norma,
Have you ever let a preferment go for a couple of days, up to three, and then mix it in the morning for pies in the evening?  Also what have you settled on for your hydration.  I would also like to ask what is the best time in mixing the dough to add oil?  I have not really used oil, have you found oil to be a deal breaker with this recipe?

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #839 on: June 07, 2011, 06:56:18 AM »
Norma,
Have you ever let a preferment go for a couple of days, up to three, and then mix it in the morning for pies in the evening?  Also what have you settled on for your hydration.  I would also like to ask what is the best time in mixing the dough to add oil?  I have not really used oil, have you found oil to be a deal breaker with this recipe?

theppgcowboy,

The preferment Lehmann dough is usually the dough I use at market, but I also have used the preferment part at home for some experiments, such as starting at Reply 707 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123166.html#msg123166
The preferment amount can be fermented at room temperature( or in a oven or something similar) and used when the poolish is ready.  The only reason I let the preferment amount bubble a little and then put it in the cooler to ferment more, is because it was developed by Peter so it would fit my market schedule.  I canít get into market over the weekend, so the poolish is made on a Friday to be incorporated into the final dough on a Monday, then cold fermented for one day.

Peter figured out the hydration of what I had been using at Reply 820 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg137395.html#msg137395 but I have since lowered the water amount, since I am not trying the reballs anymore.  I would think my hydration is now about 62%.  The original formula Peter set-forth does work well.

I havenít tried mixing the preferment amount (up to a couple of days before), then making the pies the same day, in my normal operation.  I donít know if there would be enough fermentation activity, if the final dough is only left to ferment the same day (in a cooler or home refrigerator),  with the yeast amount in the final dough.  Maybe if the final dough is left at room temperatures, it might be able to be used in the same day.  I never tried that experiment.

The way I mix the oil in, is after the other ingredients are already mixed.  The oil is added last.  I never tried this formula without oil, so I donít know how that would work.  In my Hobart mixer I time the final mix (after the ingredients are already mixed) for 8 minutes, but that is for a whole batch of 15 lbs.  At home when I mix this dough it isnít for that long.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #840 on: June 08, 2011, 07:06:28 AM »
Usually if there are leftover dough balls, of the preferment Lehmann dough, I freeze them and then used them the next week for garlic knots, pizza pinwheels, cheesy breadsticks, pizza buns, or Greek style pizza.  I found when making Greek style pizza out of the frozen dough balls, if I used my docker, the crust wonít puff up as much.  I decided to do another experiment with a dough ball that had been frozen and then thawed out at market.

I flattened a dough ball our (with the palm of my hand)  and used my pizza cutter to slice into strips.  I then rolled the strips of  dough.  The one dough strip I didnít dock and the other strip I did dock.  I prepared some Lancaster County hot dogs, that I bought at a market stand, by brushing them with oil infused garlic and a herb blend and slicing the top of the hot dogs.  They were then put into a pan and put into the deck oven, until they were cooked.  I then rolled each strip and folded each end in at the ends of the hot dogs.  The docked strip, did end up flatter than the strip that was just rolled and not docked, when baked.  Steve also made an experimental pizza hot dog with a rolled strip.  He added pizza sauce and mozzarella cheese before rolling the strip onto the hot dog.  Steve and I decided we liked the pizza dough hot dogs better that didnít include the pizza sauce and mozzarella.  The pizza dogs were baked on a screen and turned a little while baking. The finished pizza dogs were also brushed with more of the garlic herb infused oil. The pizza dogs could be dipped in melted better when finished. We just used mustard and pizza sauce to dip the pizza dogs in.   We preferred the mustard, when dipping, but I could imagine other ways to create a pizza dog.  I only cut the pizza dogs, so the insides could be seen, but the pizza dogs could be eaten without cutting.  If anyone has leftover dough, this can be a way of also using leftover dough or even fresh dough.  I am sure other doughs could also be used this way to create a pizza dog.  Steve and I only made three experimental pizza dogs, but more pizza dogs could be made out of one of my normal dough balls.

All in all, the experiment with the pizza dogs was successful.

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #841 on: June 08, 2011, 07:10:52 AM »
end of pictures

Norma


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #842 on: June 08, 2011, 02:41:34 PM »
Norma
Mustard and sweet onions on the inside....that, would be killer to me!!!!  Those look damn good!!

John

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #843 on: June 08, 2011, 03:15:23 PM »
Norma
Mustard and sweet onions on the inside....that, would be killer to me!!!!  Those look damn good!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying you also think you would like pizza dogs. I would think children would really like the pizza dogs. If you ever try to make any, let me know how they turn out.  Your idea of mustard and sweet onions sounds really great to me.  :) I think there could be many combinations of dressings inside that might work. 

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #844 on: June 09, 2011, 08:19:47 AM »
The results were not conclusive in letting the preferment part of the Lehmann dough ferment for 15 minutes more.  The crusts did seem to brown better, but I am not sure if letting the preferment (poolish) part ferment a little longer and then cold fermenting the preferment for 3 days did help my crust or not.  I plan on letting the preferment part ferment another 15 minutes this Friday to see if there are any other developments with the crusts next Tuesday.

By reading over the Artisan Yeast Treatise again, I wonder how using a preferment (poolish) right before the break point does affect crust browning.  Since my preferment part never reaches the break point, I wonder how that works to brown the crust.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm

Some pictures of preferment Lehmann dough pies made different times of the day Tuesday.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #845 on: June 09, 2011, 08:58:52 AM »
Norma,

As you know from personal exchanges with Tom Lehmann, he often discusses how the pH, and and high acid production, penalizes crust coloration. An example of this position can be seen in one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64013. Also, as you know from what Professor Calvel had written, there is a fairly complex relationship between pH, residual sugar, the Maillard reaction and oven spring. If the problem is insufficient sugars to contribute to crust coloration, then one can consider measures that increase the amounts of sugar. Or, alternatively, if there is too much acid production, it might be possible to reduce it by altering the rate at which the preferment ferments, for example, by adding a small amount of salt to the preferment to slow things down rather than trying to shorten the prefermentation period, which might throw off your timetable, or allocating less of the formula yeast to the preferment.

Another point to keep in mind is that as the ambient temperatures change on a seasonal basis, that can affect the rate and extent of prefermentation of the preferment. However, I am not certain whether that is a factor in your case, especially if you were experiencing reduced crust coloration when it was cooler where you are.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #846 on: June 09, 2011, 10:05:02 AM »
Norma,

As you know from personal exchanges with Tom Lehmann, he often discusses how the pH, and and high acid production, penalizes crust coloration. An example of this position can be seen in one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64013. Also, as you know from what Professor Calvel had written, there is a fairly complex relationship between pH, residual sugar, the Maillard reaction and oven spring. If the problem is insufficient sugars to contribute to crust coloration, then one can consider measures that increase the amounts of sugar. Or, alternatively, if there is too much acid production, it might be possible to reduce it by altering the rate at which the preferment ferments, for example, by adding a small amount of salt to the preferment to slow things down rather than trying to shorten the prefermentation period, which might throw off your timetable, or allocating less of the formula yeast to the preferment.

Another point to keep in mind is that as the ambient temperatures change on a seasonal basis, that can affect the rate and extent of prefermentation of the preferment. However, I am not certain whether that is a factor in your case, especially if you were experiencing reduced crust coloration when it was cooler where you are.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the article from Tom.  I know there is a fairly complex relationship, between pH, residual sugar, the Maillard reaction and oven spring from Professor Calvel's writings.  I wonder if I start using my pH meter again to measure the acidity of the final dough if that might give me more clues of how the preferment (fermented at different times or different bubble amounts) does affect coloration.  I am still trying to figure out how long to let the preferment part of the preferment Lehmann dough ferment (in the Hatco Unit) to give the best crust coloration.

I know ambient temperatures do affect doughs in many ways, but I was having problems with crust coloration different times in this thread, whether it was hot or cold.  I try to keep my final dough within a few degrees of all my batches and keep my coolers set low. That seems to work out well and I had reduced my yeast in the final dough to. 0.24 %, since it is warmer in our area.  That also seems to work well with keeping the doughs from overfermenting while in my coolers, so I can use them in the morning or though out the day. I know Tom doesnít advocate reducing the yeast levels, but advocates a lower final dough temperature.  I have found that reducing the final dough yeast amount works better, at least for me.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #847 on: June 11, 2011, 09:05:26 AM »
I decided to start to take the pH numbers of the preferment, after it ferments in my Hatco Unit.  I will keep doing this for a few weeks to see if the pHís of the preferment, (after it ferments in the Hatco Unit, after it sits in the deli case for 3 days, and then the final dough pHís) can help me to understand how crusts do brown when using the preferment Lehmann dough.  I donít think this will lead to any new discoveries, but will see if I can find out anything about if pH levels do affect browning in some way.  I let the poolish (preferment) ferment for 15 more minutes this week.

Picture of the preferment right before it went into the deli case.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #848 on: June 13, 2011, 06:20:58 PM »
Well, I had another problem today, when trying to take the pH of the poolish (preferment) and final dough.  I removed the preferment from of the deli case and got my pH meter and wouldnít you know it, the batteries had almost died.  The poolish didnít look as bubbly as last week though.  When I was trying to take the four small batteries out of the pH meter, to see if I could juggle them around a little and make the pH meter work, one of the small batteries fell and rolled somewhere.  I searched for about 10 minutes and couldnít find it, and I knew I had to get started getting ready for market for tomorrow.  No more pH reading could be taken today, to see if I can learn anything from the pH readings.  I did record the pH reading from Friday though and it was 5.47 after the poolish had bubbled in the Hatco unit.  I will start to take pH reading again this coming Friday.  I finally did find the one small battery when I was cleaning up, but then it was too late to do anything.  ::)

Pictures of the poolish today.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #849 on: June 15, 2011, 07:50:32 AM »
Even though I didnít get a chance to take all the pH readings I wanted to, it seemed like the pizzas turned out well yesterday with letting the preferment ferment 15 minutes more in the Hatco unit.  They did brown well in my opinion.  I didnít have time to get a lot of crumb shots because we were busy.

These are pictures of some of the pizzas baked yesterday.

Norma


 

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