Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 138268 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #560 on: July 31, 2010, 02:44:35 PM »
Norma, thanks for posting that tip from heavy-D.  I'll definitely use it.  Also thanks for the pictures of the preferment.  That is helpful.  I'm glad there are other pictures earlier in this thread as well as I'm trying to use those as landmarks.

Here is what my preferment looked like right after I mixed it up vs. 13 hours later.  And I even used slightly less than the 3% noted in the recipe.  I swear its the altitude.  My gut instinct tells me it's ready to go to sleep. what are your thoughts? Should I let it ride another 6 hrs to see what happens?

« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 02:46:21 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #561 on: July 31, 2010, 03:41:10 PM »
Jackie Tran,

Your poolish looks great to me and in my opinion it does look like it is ready to go to sleep.  I donít think I would let it ride another 6 hours, but that is up to you.  Earlier in this thread when I was just trying out the poolish, I let it sit in my kitchen and I think, but am not sure that it took less than a day for the poolish to develop to where yours is now. 

I hope your experiment goes well.  Wait until you smell that poolish, after it is sleeping for three days. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #562 on: August 03, 2010, 10:32:42 PM »
Jackie Tran,

These are the pictures from four different pies that I baked today, at different times, that you said you wanted me to take. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg105093.html#msg105093 The first pie was baked first thing this morning.  The second pie was baked around 11:00 am.  This third pie was baked around 4:00 pm and the fourth pie was baked second to the last pie this evening. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #563 on: August 03, 2010, 10:34:21 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #564 on: August 03, 2010, 10:35:45 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #565 on: August 03, 2010, 10:37:52 PM »
last of pictures

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #566 on: August 03, 2010, 10:42:29 PM »
Norma, thx for doing that.  All were baked at the same temps in the same oven I presume?   I can almost see the dough age through the day.  Seems like you get a bit more coloration to the crust as the day progresses.  I'll post an update to my preferment in a bit.  Got to load the pics.

Norma, so I just took the preferment out and mix it into the final dough.  Once done mixing I loosely formed a ball and it went into the fridge right away.  I plan on dividing it and balling it tomorrow when I first take it out of the fridge.  I let it come up to room temp or double in size before baking.  Is this normally how you do things? or do you divide and ball it before going into the fridge for the final 24 hours of cold ferment?

Chau
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 10:44:48 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #567 on: August 03, 2010, 10:45:27 PM »
Norma, thx for doing that.  All were baked at the same temps in the same oven I presume?   I can almost see the dough age through the day.  Seems like you get a bit more coloration to the crust as the day progresses.  I'll post an update to my preferment in a bit.  Got to load the pics.

Jackie Tran,

Yes, the pies were all baked at the same temperatures in the same oven.  It was my oven at market. 
I am interested is seeing how you did with your preferment.   ;D

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #568 on: August 03, 2010, 10:58:29 PM »
Oh BTW, I forgot to say.  LOVE  those nice big voids and love the crumb shot on the last one.  I like getting those tiny hair like strands in there. 

So I decide to do the final mix tonight after a bit less than 2 and half days of cold ferment.  Sorry I couldn't wait the 3 days.   :P  Me too impatient.   I also had to weigh the preferment again so I scraped it out of the bowl and place it on the plastic sheet thus the upskirt shot.

I was able to dissolve most of the preferment in the water and with the last chunk, I just cut it up with scissors into small chunks before the mix.  The last picture is of the final dough ball.  I'll put it to sleep for 24 hours.  I plan on dividing and balling it tomorrow once it comes out of the fridge and let it come up to room temp or till doubled before baking. 

I also plan on doing stretch and folds with one of the 2 balls.  I hope to get nice big voids like you. :)

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #569 on: August 03, 2010, 11:08:54 PM »
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying you love the big voids and crumb in the last pie.   :)

I usually donít dissolve the preferment in the water, I just add it to the water and then mix.  I am anxious to see how you like your pies using a poolish.  :)

Thanks for posting the pictures and telling me what you did.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #570 on: August 03, 2010, 11:17:30 PM »
Norma, so I just took the preferment out and mix it into the final dough.  Once done mixing I loosely formed a ball and it went into the fridge right away.  I plan on dividing it and balling it tomorrow when I first take it out of the fridge.  I let it come up to room temp or double in size before baking.  Is this normally how you do things? or do you divide and ball it before going into the fridge for the final 24 hours of cold ferment?


Chau,

Norma can correct me but I believe she does the dough division before going into her cold storage unit. I believe that she also uses a fairly short temper time.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #571 on: August 03, 2010, 11:17:56 PM »
Norma, did you see reply #566.  I added a few questions while you were typing I think so you may have missed them.

I'm typically not a fan of cold ferments b/c my (pizza) balls tend to dry out.  But I think I've found a work around for that.  When I proof them, I'll cover them with a moist cloth which should prevent that.  Who knows, this may be the bake that changes my views on cold ferments forever.  :D

This is very different than my typically routine for a cold ferment dough so I'm very excited about the possible outcomes.  I hope to get something very different than what I usually do.  If that happens then I'll be very happy.  I'm already learning some new things from this process.  

Once the dough is out of the fridge after the 24 hour cold ferment, how long do you typically proof it for and at what temps before they are baked?  Or do you go by visual cues or both?  You also proof them inside plastic bags correct?

Thx,
Chau

Thanks Peter,  I was typing while you were as well.  I'll just leave the questions up. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 11:26:09 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #572 on: August 03, 2010, 11:56:33 PM »
Jackie Tran,

No, I didnít see that you edited your other post at reply #566.  Peter is right that after I do the final dough mix, I then weigh and ball my dough right away.  I only let the dough balls come up to room temperature or maybe not that all the time.  It all depends on the ambient room temperature.  Today, Steve and I did an experiment with this dough.  We just took it out of the deli case and used the dough right away.  The last pie was done this way.  It didnít seem to affect this pie in any way. 

It will be interesting to see if this will change your views on cold ferments.  Itís good you have already learn some new things while trying this dough.  For me this dough is very versatile.  Now I am trying the new sour dough mix for the Lehmann dough.  That sour dough mix is very interesting.

To answer your question on how long you should let this dough set out, I posted before you have to watch this dough.  In the winter the dough can sit out for much longer.  Now, in the summer I really have to watch this dough.  If it becomes to warm, then it will want to become unmanageable.  You will be able to see more bubbles forming in the dough if it sets out for too long.  I do keep my dough balls in the plastic bags all the time, until I am ready to use them.  I think the bake temperature could be anywhere between 525-550 degrees F.  I never tried temperatures in between last weeks really high bake and what I normally use.

Best of luck,  ;D

Norma
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 11:58:16 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #573 on: August 04, 2010, 01:06:34 PM »
I canít find a link to the exact article, but in the magazine Bon Appetit on page 90 there is an article on Rootís Market, titled ď Pennsylvania Dutch Treatí by Mark Rozzo.  I will have to buy that magazine to see the full article. http://www.bonappetit.com/magazine/toc/august_2010_toc  I found out about the article from a newsletter I received each month from Rootís Market.  This is what the newsletter says.

ROOT'S    "IN THE NEWS"   

 "Local farmers, particularly Amish and Mennonite, are always found at the Dutch country's abundant farmers' markets, including Root's Country Market & Auction, my favorite, outside East Petersburg.   It's a sprawling, ramshakle complex where goats, chickens, ducks and rabbits are auctioned off every Tuesday and all manner of Dutch goodies (from Lebanon bologna to guilty-pleasure whoopie pies you eat right on the spot) can be purchased from the farmers, butchers, and bakers who made them."     Pennsylvania Dutch Treat by Mark Rozzo, Bon Appetit Magazine, August, 2010

"If you really want to make a day of it... Here is (one of two) fantastic markets that combine indoor and outdoor vendors that I promise will make the drive and day worthwhile.   Every Tuesday as well as the first Saturday of each month, Root's Country Market & Auction in Manheim, PA is a farm shoppers dream. ... They have just about everything for sale from produce, plants, flowers and food stands with amazing prices to Florida type flea market items and live farm animals such as chickens, roosters, goats, etc." ... "There's even a "Pickle Lady" stall indoors... who makes the best homemade pickles I've ever tasted, in more varieties than you can imagine.   There are about four huge indoor buildings, as well as maybe hundreds of outdoor vendors..."     Best Tastes by Ilene Spector, Special Writer, Baltimore Jewish Times,   July 2, 2010

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #574 on: August 04, 2010, 06:29:51 PM »

This article was an insert in our local newspaper yesterday.  It is about how Rootís Market started, how many stands are there and also the auctions they hold at Root's. This market is where I make my preferment Lehmann dough and also sell my pizzas.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #575 on: August 04, 2010, 08:53:34 PM »
Norma, I'm baking the pizzas tonight and hope to do well.  The final dough has been cold fermenting for 24 hours.  The top had a dry skin on it, but i went ahead had shaved it off since I have extra dough.  I'm only using 182 gm per doughball since my MBE can't handle big pies.

Pic 1 is the doughball coming out of the fridge.  As you can see in comparison to the last pic in reply #568, the doughball has risen a bit in the fridge.  I divided the dough and cut each down to 182gm.  The left one I balled up and the right one I added 4 quick folds to it before balling.  You can see the skin is a bit tighter on that one.   I'll let them come up to room temp for about 2 hours and plan on baking them at around 650F for 4 mins or so.

I hope I will still be able to open them easily despite balling them up after the cold ferment.  It's possible that the the warm up won't be enough time to allow the gluten to relax again enough to open the dough easily.  I guess I will find out. 

Chau
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 08:57:50 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #576 on: August 04, 2010, 09:34:03 PM »
Jackie Tran,

I hope your bake goes well tonight, too.  I wonder why the top got a dry skin.  I hope you will be able to open them up, despite dividing after the cold ferment.  Your dough balls look a lot drier than mine.

Best of luck and I will be looking forward to your results.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #577 on: August 04, 2010, 09:54:34 PM »
Norma I covered the top of the bowl with saran tightly and will often see a bit of moisture collect on the underside.   Believe it or not the hydration of this dough is 68% vs your 61%.  I believe there are 2 reasons for this.  First mixing by hand inevitable yields a higher hydration and 2ndly, the high altitude and arid climate wicks moisture from my dough at an incredible rate.  To balance this lost of moisture out I have to purposely mix a much wetter dough.  I just may have to start cold ferment and/or proofing them inside plastic bags as you do. 

Now you can see my previous dissatisfaction with cold ferments.  But I have them proofing on the counter with a moist towel over them so that should prevent further moisture lost.   I'll post pics later. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #578 on: August 04, 2010, 10:04:54 PM »
Jackie Tran,

When I had dry dough in the Ultra-Thin thread I did oil my dough balls more then, but it is good that you can see some moisture forming on the saran wrap. Did you oil these dough balls at all?  I donít know what high altitude does to dough, but low humidity here in the winter doesnít seem to affect this dough.  I can see by mixing by hand, there can be different results with this dough.  Itís hard for me to see myself using a 68% hydration for this dough, in my setting.  The plastic bags seem to keep the moisture in for me.  I just purchase a case of food safe bags at my local restaurant store.  They are fairly inexpensive.  One case would last you for awhile.  There are 1,000 bags in a case.   :-D

Looking forward to your results.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #579 on: August 04, 2010, 11:53:06 PM »
OK Norma, the results.   Some pluses and minuses.

First off, balling them after the last cold ferment was definitely a mistake.  Even though I didn't handle them much to ball them, the gluten had already been developed so the balling overdeveloped the gluten structure and made it very hard to open.  I ended up with pizza pot pies b/c of this.

I think I could have let them proof for 3 hours but when I stretched them out at 2hours, they were still quite cool to the touch and not as puffy as I would have like. I think if I had let them go to the 3rd hour I would have gotten more voids in the dough.  I didn't wait for the 3rd hour b/c it was getting late and the oven was ready.  :-[

Here's what the balls looked like after proofing 2H.  Here's a stretched out skin.  I wanted 10" but could only get 8".  The one with extra stretch and folds had no extra voids in it compared to the one without.  I was impress to see a few voids in the rim of the ball that didn't have the extra stretch and folds. 

The plain cheese had the extra folds.