Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 162582 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #550 on: July 30, 2010, 11:42:00 PM »
These are a few pictures of this pie, after it has cooled down. They were just taken a couple of minutes ago.  The first picture is the crust torn apart to see the crumb structure.  These were the last two slices of the pie.

Norma


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #551 on: July 30, 2010, 11:59:32 PM »
Norma, did you find that this lower temp bake in the home oven gave you a denser or doughier crumb at all or essentially the same crust texture?

Off the top of your head, do you know the protein content of the KASL flour you use? I have so much flour it's tough for me to buy more at this point.  I think I can blend a few flours to get close to the protein content of KASL.  It won't be exactly the same but should be close enough.   

Norma, good to know you usually mix this up by hand.  I had wrongly assumed you were using the mixer to get a 61%.  I'm not quite sure how you and others mix a 61% by hand without issues.

At this point the only thing I can attributed this too is the high % of preferment used (~74%).  Maybe once I start working with it, I'll find that it won't be hard to achieve the 61%.  I'll shoot for it though and won't go higher unless I feel that I really have to. 

You've mixed this up by hand so many times now I'm sure it's effortless.  Sorry for the noob question but can you quickly go over the steps you take to hand mix it.  Do you use the straight dough technique? or do you add the flour in a bit at a time, knead, and add more flour?   How long is your knead time approximately once you start adding water and flour and other ingredients to the the preferment.

Actually, if you don't mind can you list the order in which you add the ingredients to the preferment or do you add the preferment to the other ingredients.

BTW - I just started reading from page 12? (recipe for 1 16" pizza) and slowly making my way through the entire thread).  ;D

Chau
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 12:02:48 AM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #552 on: July 31, 2010, 07:24:02 AM »
Jackie Tran,

The lower bake temperature in my home oven and the longer bake, did give this crumb a little drier texture than a faster bake as in my commercial oven or BBQ grill set-up.  It still was very good in my opinion, but just a little different. 

I think the KASL has a protein content of about 14.2 %.  If you want me to send you enough flour to test two dough balls out, let me know and I could probably send you some next week.  This flour is an unbleached and unbromated flour.

I donít mix this formula by hand. This is mixed in my commercial mixer at market. I just said I thought it could be mixed by hand.  Most of the doughs I make at home are mixed by hand.  The reason I said in my other post that I didnít think this dough would be suited for a food processor is because of adding the poolish, which is very sticky.  I could be wrong about mixing this dough in a food processor.  I never tried mixing this dough in a food processor.

How I mix this dough is first weigh out the flour and IDY for the poolish  I use a whisk to distribute the yeast into the flour, then add the water and mix this all together.  I used a spatula to mix the poolish.  For one or two dough ball this can be mixed by hand.  It will look like a really thick pancake batter.  Cover and let this poolish sit out at room temperature, (or use a proofing box) until this mixture starts to bubble.  This can take varying amounts of time, all depending on what the ambient temperature is.  Then keep the poolish covered and cold ferment for 3 days.  Then add the final dough mix.  I add the water and poolish together, then flour (all the flour at one time), IDY on one side and salt on the other side and mix until the ingredients come together and look throughly mixed. Then add the olive oil and continue mixing until the olive oil is incorporated into the dough.  Next ball and let cold ferment for 1 day.  The dough should be ready to use then.  My commercial mixer does this fast, but I am not sure how long it will take to hand mix. 

Here is a link to show what the poolish should look like and the final dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg93116.html#msg93116

Anymore questions, just ask.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #553 on: July 31, 2010, 08:30:54 AM »
Norma,

When I suggested that you try to make a pizza in your home oven that is "identical" to what you make at market, I did not stop to think that you cannot make a 16" pizza in your home oven. That would have been the best test to determine whether it is the oven or the dough formulation that is more responsible for the oven spring in your case. Can you tell me the size of the pizza you made, the size of your pizza stone, and the oven rack position you used to make your last pizza? I assume that you used the same dough ball weight as you use at market.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #554 on: July 31, 2010, 09:01:14 AM »
Peter,

I can make a 16" pizza in my home oven. Sometimes there are problems with me loading a 16" pie and getting it on the baking stone, in my home oven. The pizza stone is 16" in diameter and I have four rack positions in my home oven and I used the second to the top rack position for this pie.  The dough ball weight was the same as my 16" pizza at market.

The only reason I let this dough a little thicker was to see if I had the same results as when I left a small dough ball a little thicker at market, and seeing if that also could get the better oven spring, if I let the rim and skin thicker.  That is what happened with this pie.  The rim did get about the same amount of oven spring, if the dough was left thicker and the rim was made bigger. 

In some ways, you are right that this is not ďidenticalĒ to my regular pizza at market, but in my opinion when I let the smaller dough balls thicker in my home BBQ grill set-up and at market in my commercial oven, these results were about the same, except this pie was a little bit drier, when baked in my home oven.  I attribute that to the longer bake time.

Donít you think this test showed anything about this dough and handling techniques?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #555 on: July 31, 2010, 10:13:37 AM »
Donít you think this test showed anything about this dough and handling techniques?


Norma,

My gut wants to say yes but when it comes to matters that are governed by science and technical factors I have learned that you really can't be definitive in the conclusions unless the two things to be compared are as close to each other as possible. To do the best comparison in this case, one would have to use the same dough batch weight, the same dough condition (e.g., fresh dough or frozen dough, but not one of each), the same skin thickness (thickness factor), the same pizza size, and the same types and amounts of sauce, cheese and other toppings. In your case, you might be able to make a smaller sized pizza for your home oven setup and stone but you would have to use a proportionate amount of sauce, cheese and toppings (which is based on the surface areas of the pizzas, as Tom Lehmann discusses, for example, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7381&p=49812&hilit=#p49812). Even then, there would be the nagging feeling that the different pizza size is not exactly comparable to the other pizza size.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 10:15:09 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #556 on: July 31, 2010, 11:10:00 AM »
Jackie Tran,

The lower bake temperature in my home oven and the longer bake, did give this crumb a little drier texture than a faster bake as in my commercial oven or BBQ grill set-up.  It still was very good in my opinion, but just a little different. 

I think the KASL has a protein content of about 14.2 %.  If you want me to send you enough flour to test two dough balls out, let me know and I could probably send you some next week.  This flour is an unbleached and unbromated flour.

I donít mix this formula by hand. This is mixed in my commercial mixer at market. I just said I thought it could be mixed by hand.  Most of the doughs I make at home are mixed by hand.  The reason I said in my other post that I didnít think this dough would be suited for a food processor is because of adding the poolish, which is very sticky.  I could be wrong about mixing this dough in a food processor.  I never tried mixing this dough in a food processor.

How I mix this dough is first weigh out the flour and IDY for the poolish  I use a whisk to distribute the yeast into the flour, then add the water and mix this all together.  I used a spatula to mix the poolish.  For one or two dough ball this can be mixed by hand.  It will look like a really thick pancake batter.  Cover and let this poolish sit out at room temperature, (or use a proofing box) until this mixture starts to bubble.  This can take varying amounts of time, all depending on what the ambient temperature is.  Then keep the poolish covered and cold ferment for 3 days.  Then add the final dough mix.  I add the water and poolish together, then flour (all the flour at one time), IDY on one side and salt on the other side and mix until the ingredients come together and look throughly mixed. Then add the olive oil and continue mixing until the olive oil is incorporated into the dough.  Next ball and let cold ferment for 1 day.  The dough should be ready to use then.  My commercial mixer does this fast, but I am not sure how long it will take to hand mix. 

Here is a link to show what the poolish should look like and the final dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg93116.html#msg93116

Anymore questions, just ask.

Norma

Thank you Norma for offering to send me a sample of KASL flour but that won't be necessary.  My Sams Club HG flour should be around the 14% range and will suffice even if it's bleached and bromated.  My real intentions for this project is to play around with cold fermented preferment a bit and see if I can glean any new ideas or knowledge, which I'm sure I will.  Thanks for clarifying the hand mixing issue.  I agree that using a food processor could be a sticky situation.  :-D
I will employ the power of the straight dough method to achieve around a 65% HR.  Again, I know it won't be following your recipe exactly but it should give me similar results and the lessons I learn about using a cold fermented preferment won't be affected by HR. 

Thank you for noting the steps inwhich you mix up your dough by hand.  I'm sure it will become very useful for those who are interested in making your pizza.   I have already mixed up the preferment last night using ADY instead of IDY.  The preferment is looking quite robust this morning.  i will keep an eye out for the big bubbles or for the high activity level as a sign for when to cold ferment.   Thank you for your help and I will post up pics as they come in.

Norma your pies always have those nice great big voids.  :)  I can get mine that way but do so by employing a stretch and fold technique part way through the fermenting process.  I've been curious to know (or figure out) if your voids come incidentally through the use of a cold fermented preferment (say that 3 times as fast as you can) or if they are injected in during the dough handling procedure.  BTW it is my belief that those big voids also play a big part in oven spring. For these test pies I'll leave out the stretch and fold on 1 ball to see if there is a difference in the end bake.  Should be interesting.

Cheers,
Chau

Whoops I keep forgetting to ask you.  Do your pies have a sour(dough) taste to them at all?  With as much yeast as required and a 4 day cold ferment I would think that they do.   Thx
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 11:17:31 AM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #557 on: July 31, 2010, 11:14:54 AM »
Peter,

I enjoy pizza making and learning how dough behaves.  I am not always into the matters that are governed by science and technical factors.  I can see how if everything is not exactly the same there can be variances.

I think I will just stay on course and study this dough, the best I can without getting too technical.  :-D

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #558 on: July 31, 2010, 11:25:49 AM »
Jackie Tran,

I found out over time that the poolish part of this dough doesnít have to have really big bubbles after I tested it for awhile.  I learned this over time.  It will still keep fermenting while it is cold fermenting for 3 days.  Now I only let the poolish part start to show some bubbles on the poolish and then cold ferment.  You will find when you get this poolish out after 3 days, that it will be a sticky mixture.  You can then decide if you want to add the water to the poolish to make it easier to remove from your container.  The poolish will smell wonderful.

Thanks for saying my pies have nice voids.  This has come from studying this dough and trying different ideas.  Should be interesting to see how you make out without the stretch and folds.

The crusts from this poolish preferment have no sourdough taste. 

Let me know if you need any other help.

Best of luck,  ;D

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #559 on: July 31, 2010, 11:38:12 AM »
Jackie Tran,

Here is a tip heavy-d gave Peter for getting the poolish out of a container after the 3 day cold ferment, if you are interesting in reading it.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg94554.html#msg94554

Here is also a picture of how the poolish looks after I experimented with it for awhile, before the 3 day cold ferment.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg94752.html#msg94752   

If you look down in these pictures, this is how the poolish should look when it is cold fermented for 3 days.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg95017.html#msg95017

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #560 on: July 31, 2010, 02:44:35 PM »
Norma, thanks for posting that tip from heavy-D.  I'll definitely use it.  Also thanks for the pictures of the preferment.  That is helpful.  I'm glad there are other pictures earlier in this thread as well as I'm trying to use those as landmarks.

Here is what my preferment looked like right after I mixed it up vs. 13 hours later.  And I even used slightly less than the 3% noted in the recipe.  I swear its the altitude.  My gut instinct tells me it's ready to go to sleep. what are your thoughts? Should I let it ride another 6 hrs to see what happens?

« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 02:46:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #561 on: July 31, 2010, 03:41:10 PM »
Jackie Tran,

Your poolish looks great to me and in my opinion it does look like it is ready to go to sleep.  I donít think I would let it ride another 6 hours, but that is up to you.  Earlier in this thread when I was just trying out the poolish, I let it sit in my kitchen and I think, but am not sure that it took less than a day for the poolish to develop to where yours is now. 

I hope your experiment goes well.  Wait until you smell that poolish, after it is sleeping for three days. 

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #562 on: August 03, 2010, 10:32:42 PM »
Jackie Tran,

These are the pictures from four different pies that I baked today, at different times, that you said you wanted me to take. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg105093.html#msg105093 The first pie was baked first thing this morning.  The second pie was baked around 11:00 am.  This third pie was baked around 4:00 pm and the fourth pie was baked second to the last pie this evening. 

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #563 on: August 03, 2010, 10:34:21 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #564 on: August 03, 2010, 10:35:45 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #565 on: August 03, 2010, 10:37:52 PM »
last of pictures

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #566 on: August 03, 2010, 10:42:29 PM »
Norma, thx for doing that.  All were baked at the same temps in the same oven I presume?   I can almost see the dough age through the day.  Seems like you get a bit more coloration to the crust as the day progresses.  I'll post an update to my preferment in a bit.  Got to load the pics.

Norma, so I just took the preferment out and mix it into the final dough.  Once done mixing I loosely formed a ball and it went into the fridge right away.  I plan on dividing it and balling it tomorrow when I first take it out of the fridge.  I let it come up to room temp or double in size before baking.  Is this normally how you do things? or do you divide and ball it before going into the fridge for the final 24 hours of cold ferment?

Chau
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 10:44:48 PM by Jackie Tran »


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #567 on: August 03, 2010, 10:45:27 PM »
Norma, thx for doing that.  All were baked at the same temps in the same oven I presume?   I can almost see the dough age through the day.  Seems like you get a bit more coloration to the crust as the day progresses.  I'll post an update to my preferment in a bit.  Got to load the pics.

Jackie Tran,

Yes, the pies were all baked at the same temperatures in the same oven.  It was my oven at market. 
I am interested is seeing how you did with your preferment.   ;D

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #568 on: August 03, 2010, 10:58:29 PM »
Oh BTW, I forgot to say.  LOVE  those nice big voids and love the crumb shot on the last one.  I like getting those tiny hair like strands in there. 

So I decide to do the final mix tonight after a bit less than 2 and half days of cold ferment.  Sorry I couldn't wait the 3 days.   :P  Me too impatient.   I also had to weigh the preferment again so I scraped it out of the bowl and place it on the plastic sheet thus the upskirt shot.

I was able to dissolve most of the preferment in the water and with the last chunk, I just cut it up with scissors into small chunks before the mix.  The last picture is of the final dough ball.  I'll put it to sleep for 24 hours.  I plan on dividing and balling it tomorrow once it comes out of the fridge and let it come up to room temp or till doubled before baking. 

I also plan on doing stretch and folds with one of the 2 balls.  I hope to get nice big voids like you. :)

Chau

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #569 on: August 03, 2010, 11:08:54 PM »
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying you love the big voids and crumb in the last pie.   :)

I usually donít dissolve the preferment in the water, I just add it to the water and then mix.  I am anxious to see how you like your pies using a poolish.  :)

Thanks for posting the pictures and telling me what you did.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #570 on: August 03, 2010, 11:17:30 PM »
Norma, so I just took the preferment out and mix it into the final dough.  Once done mixing I loosely formed a ball and it went into the fridge right away.  I plan on dividing it and balling it tomorrow when I first take it out of the fridge.  I let it come up to room temp or double in size before baking.  Is this normally how you do things? or do you divide and ball it before going into the fridge for the final 24 hours of cold ferment?


Chau,

Norma can correct me but I believe she does the dough division before going into her cold storage unit. I believe that she also uses a fairly short temper time.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #571 on: August 03, 2010, 11:17:56 PM »
Norma, did you see reply #566.  I added a few questions while you were typing I think so you may have missed them.

I'm typically not a fan of cold ferments b/c my (pizza) balls tend to dry out.  But I think I've found a work around for that.  When I proof them, I'll cover them with a moist cloth which should prevent that.  Who knows, this may be the bake that changes my views on cold ferments forever.  :D

This is very different than my typically routine for a cold ferment dough so I'm very excited about the possible outcomes.  I hope to get something very different than what I usually do.  If that happens then I'll be very happy.  I'm already learning some new things from this process.  

Once the dough is out of the fridge after the 24 hour cold ferment, how long do you typically proof it for and at what temps before they are baked?  Or do you go by visual cues or both?  You also proof them inside plastic bags correct?

Thx,
Chau

Thanks Peter,  I was typing while you were as well.  I'll just leave the questions up. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 11:26:09 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #572 on: August 03, 2010, 11:56:33 PM »
Jackie Tran,

No, I didnít see that you edited your other post at reply #566.  Peter is right that after I do the final dough mix, I then weigh and ball my dough right away.  I only let the dough balls come up to room temperature or maybe not that all the time.  It all depends on the ambient room temperature.  Today, Steve and I did an experiment with this dough.  We just took it out of the deli case and used the dough right away.  The last pie was done this way.  It didnít seem to affect this pie in any way. 

It will be interesting to see if this will change your views on cold ferments.  Itís good you have already learn some new things while trying this dough.  For me this dough is very versatile.  Now I am trying the new sour dough mix for the Lehmann dough.  That sour dough mix is very interesting.

To answer your question on how long you should let this dough set out, I posted before you have to watch this dough.  In the winter the dough can sit out for much longer.  Now, in the summer I really have to watch this dough.  If it becomes to warm, then it will want to become unmanageable.  You will be able to see more bubbles forming in the dough if it sets out for too long.  I do keep my dough balls in the plastic bags all the time, until I am ready to use them.  I think the bake temperature could be anywhere between 525-550 degrees F.  I never tried temperatures in between last weeks really high bake and what I normally use.

Best of luck,  ;D

Norma
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 11:58:16 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #573 on: August 04, 2010, 01:06:34 PM »
I canít find a link to the exact article, but in the magazine Bon Appetit on page 90 there is an article on Rootís Market, titled ď Pennsylvania Dutch Treatí by Mark Rozzo.  I will have to buy that magazine to see the full article. http://www.bonappetit.com/magazine/toc/august_2010_toc  I found out about the article from a newsletter I received each month from Rootís Market.  This is what the newsletter says.

ROOT'S    "IN THE NEWS"   

 "Local farmers, particularly Amish and Mennonite, are always found at the Dutch country's abundant farmers' markets, including Root's Country Market & Auction, my favorite, outside East Petersburg.   It's a sprawling, ramshakle complex where goats, chickens, ducks and rabbits are auctioned off every Tuesday and all manner of Dutch goodies (from Lebanon bologna to guilty-pleasure whoopie pies you eat right on the spot) can be purchased from the farmers, butchers, and bakers who made them."     Pennsylvania Dutch Treat by Mark Rozzo, Bon Appetit Magazine, August, 2010

"If you really want to make a day of it... Here is (one of two) fantastic markets that combine indoor and outdoor vendors that I promise will make the drive and day worthwhile.   Every Tuesday as well as the first Saturday of each month, Root's Country Market & Auction in Manheim, PA is a farm shoppers dream. ... They have just about everything for sale from produce, plants, flowers and food stands with amazing prices to Florida type flea market items and live farm animals such as chickens, roosters, goats, etc." ... "There's even a "Pickle Lady" stall indoors... who makes the best homemade pickles I've ever tasted, in more varieties than you can imagine.   There are about four huge indoor buildings, as well as maybe hundreds of outdoor vendors..."     Best Tastes by Ilene Spector, Special Writer, Baltimore Jewish Times,   July 2, 2010

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #574 on: August 04, 2010, 06:29:51 PM »

This article was an insert in our local newspaper yesterday.  It is about how Rootís Market started, how many stands are there and also the auctions they hold at Root's. This market is where I make my preferment Lehmann dough and also sell my pizzas.

Norma