Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

Looking good!

Matt,

Thanks for saying the different mixing times pizzas looked good. 

Norma

[norma427]

I used the preferment Lehmann dough to do another experiment. The dough ball was frozen and I left it in the refrigerator to defrost.  The warm-up time for this dough ball was 1 ½ hrs. I placed soapstone on the third rack from the top and placed a cordierite stone on the top rack position of my home oven. 

The pie was dressed with Les’s sauce and Grande Bocconini Flor-di-Latte mozzarella.  After the pie was baked, I placed opal and regular basil from my garden on the middle of the pie. 

Even when using the same dough that I use at market, this pie tasted a lot different.  The crust browned much different than my deck oven.  The bottom crust was also a lot more crunchy than the pies I make at market.  I can understand when each person makes the same formula and bakes in different ways, the results can be very different.

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[norma427]

These two pictures are just of two pizzas taken later on in the afternoon.  Since our weather is changing in our area, I am finding in the last two weeks that my poolish isn’t behaving the same way as before. When I mix it on Friday and keep it in the Hatco unit until it bubbles and then cold ferment the poolish until Monday, the poolish is developing a runny layer on the bottom of the poolish.  This didn’t happen before.  It is almost watery on the bottom of the containers.  The rest of the poolish looks normal.  The final dough looks okay, but I am finding that most of my pizzas are getting darker in color and also there seems to be more oven spring.   I don’t know if all this relates to the different poolish, but will keep watching to see what happens.  If the poolish behaves the same way by next week, I will take a picture of the poolish before I incorporate it into the final dough.  I know by each picture that is taken there can be a wide difference in how a pizza looks.

Pictures below

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Those are interesting developments that bear watching. Did you find that you liked the latest pizzas better as a result?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Those are interesting developments that bear watching. Did you find that you liked the latest pizzas better as a result?

Peter

Peter,

I had just thought last week, that I might have done something wrong in mixing the poolish, but this week the same thing happened and I was careful to make sure I did everything the same.  I don’t know what is happening with the poolish, but will continue to watch how it behaves.  I never had this problem with my poolish before and was wondering if it was the cooler weather or humidity in the flour.  I can be sure of what is going on, until I watch in the next few weeks.  When the finished dough balls are in the fridge they seem to ferment faster too.  When I left the dough ball sit out to warm up, last week and this week, I had to use them sooner or they wanted to overferment. 

I think the last two weeks pizzas did look better.  I can’t say they tasted much different though.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

With cooler outside temperatures I would normally expect fermentation to slow down, not speed up. However, looking at your photos, I see a profusion of fermentation blisters that are more indicative of long fermentation. You might use your pH meter to take a few pH measurements along the way. Those values might not be the same as the values you have been taking with your Ischia culture/dough but they might tell us something nonetheless. There is a relationship between residual sugar and pH, and their effect on oven spring, so some pH values might be useful to see where you might be on the spectrum.

For water to separate out of the poolish would seem to suggest that the poolish is overripe, with the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure and releasing water from its bond. Again, I would think that higher temperatures rather than lower temperatures would be more likely to cause the release of the water.

You might also double check your Hatco unit and your deli case to see if they are operating properly from a temperature standpoint.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I also thought the same thing as why my dough seemed to be fermenting more since temperatures are down.  I will take the pH measurements of the poolish and some dough balls before I do the bake.  I know they won’t be the same as the Ischia culture/dough, but they might be able to tell me something.  I did take the pH of one dough ball before the bake yesterday, but can’t find where I put that paper.  I think it was about 5.66. 

I also thought about the poolish being overripe.  I had read before on the forum of using a poolish right before it fell. I never tried using a poolish at that point. That is about how both of the last weeks two poolishs looked.  Usually when I pull the poolish out of the containers it looks like a great gluten mass with many strands in the poolish.  The last two weeks the poolish didn’t look like that.  It had some strands in it, but looked more like a blob.

I didn’t think to check my Hatco unit, but I will take the temperature of the inside with my IR gun. I watch the temperatures on the Hatco unit, but they might not be accurate.  My cooling deli case still reads about the same temperature on both thermometers, but I will also try to check that temperature.  I just thought it might be the humidity or maybe my flour that had developed humidity in it, but I will try to see what could be causing this.  I did like the looks of these pizzas better, but sure don’t want to have something wrong with the poolish and then not have good dough to use on a Tuesday.  I think I might have been close to not having good dough. I had just defrosted the deli case the other week after it was so warm and froze up on me.  It seemed fine now, but maybe the temperature isn’t as low as it was before.

Thanks for letting me know what you think could have happened with these poolishs.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

After I posted, I thought some more about your "problem" and whether adding some salt to your preferment would slow down the action of the enzymes in the dough. Ordinarily, one does not add salt to a preferment but I recalled that Prof. Calvel had mentioned doing this somewhere in his book. I then recalled that I had read somewhere about preferments becoming liquidy and that a proposed solution was to use a small amount of salt in the preferment. I had to do a search to find where I read it but I suspected that Didier Rosada discussed this subject. I found the discussion at the end of his article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, specifically, the excerpt:

The same protease effect also happens in preferments such as sponge that do not have salt and ferment for a long time at room temperature. Room temperature (versus cooler temperature) favors enzyme activity. The absence of salt in the preparation encourages a higher rate of protease activity since protease is very salt sensitive.

Sometimes we notice that the inside of the preferment starts to liquefy, especially at the end of the maturation stage. This is due to an excess of enzyme activity, and can eventually compromise the characteristics of the final dough. To correct this problem, 0.1% to 0.2% salt can be added during the preparation of the preferment.

I think it is premature to consider adding salt to your preferment but I wanted to bring that possible solution to your attention in case we find it advisable to add some salt at some point. I personally don't think that the problem is humidity related. If that were a common problem, I believe I would have read about it somewhere and that I would have remembered it.

By any chance, did the crusts of the last pizzas have a reddish complexion? That sometimes indicates a problem with too much residual sugar.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thank you for searching for what might be causing my problems with the poolish.  The link you referenced tells a lot about everything that goes on in dough.  I can understand how salt could help the excess enzyme activity in a poolish.

I also think to add salt right now is premature, because I am not sure at this point, what my problems are.  Maybe I will know more on Friday, when I make the poolish and take the temperatures of my Hatco unit and my deli case.  I wish my baked pizzas could keep this much oven spring and better browning, but I don’t want to sacrifice by having a dough that might not work on a Tuesday.  Most customers on Tuesday picked the slices that had the most oven spring.  They said they really like the big rims.

I didn’t really look to see if the pizzas had a reddish complexion.  I was just wondering why my pizzas looked different and also was wondering why my poolish was different.  I had made that poolish so many times and never had problems with it before, whether it was in colder weather or in the heat of summer.  I should have taken more pictures of the pizzas yesterday.  You might have been able to tell if I had taken more pictures is there was a reddish complexion on the crust.  I was also wondering how the Ischia culture/dough was going to work out.  Steve even noticed how fast my dough balls were fermenting on the bench while they were warming up.  I froze some dough balls last night and if I think about it tomorrow morning I will post a picture of how much those dough balls are fermented.  They were left in the pizza prep fridge all day.  I do know that fridge is really cold.  Even at the end of a hot summer day they are not that fermented.

Norma

[norma427]

These are two pictures of how the frozen dough balls look today.  They expanded quite a more than usual, until the end of the day at market on Tuesday.  These dough balls were kept in the pizza prep refrigerator all day.  I put them next to a loaf of bread so it can be seen how large they are in the one picture.

Norma

[norma427]

This isn’t related to the Lehmann dough, but thought I remembered taking a pH of a dough before.  I searched this morning and found where I had posted on the pH of an experimental dough before.  That dough pH was 6.2 when I finished mixing it at Reply 173 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84152.html#msg84152 On that dough I was experimenting to see if the dough could last for a long while, before being baked and I did have a much lower final dough temperature.  That dough did cold ferment for a long while.  I can’t remember if it was 8 or longer days of cold fermenting, but I remember how that dough acted when I went to let it try to warm up at Reply 194 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84593.html#msg84593

I now wished I would have taken the pH of that dough before doing the bake.  It might have been able to give me some clues on the crust coloration of that dough, because the first pH number was lower than my normal Lehmann dough or the one I am experimenting with the Ischia culture/dough. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I now wished I would have taken the pH of that dough before doing the bake.  It might have been able to give me some clues on the crust coloration of that dough, because the first pH number was lower than my normal Lehmann dough or the one I am experimenting with the Ischia culture/dough. 

Norma,

Maybe I am misreading what you posted, but wasn't the 6.2 pH reading more than what you have been recording for the Ischia KASL dough? Also, by your "normal" Lehmann dough do you mean the basic Lehmann dough without the preferment or the one with the preferment?

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

For clarification purposes, when I mentioned the "reddening" of the finished crust, I was looking at the second photo at Reply 623 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112128.html#msg112128. Maybe it was the lighting when you took the photo that made the crust look redlike but that is the photo that prompted my question. Usually when a crust has too much residual sugar, and is manifested by excessive caramelization and Maillard reactions, it is because of a hyperdiastatic dough (excessive enzyme activity). I somewhat ruled out that possibility because, according to Prof. Calvel, a crust that has abnormal reddening suffers a serious decline in taste and aroma. The crust also has poor eating characteristics. I got the impression from what you posted that you very much liked the crust. I just wanted to rule out excessive enzyme activity if the conditions didn't support that possibility.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

You weren’t misreading what I posted.  I was the one that was confusing in my last post.  I was just wondering if I had taken the final pH before the bake of those pizzas, what that pH would have been. Since that dough had been fermented for so long, it just makes me curious what it was. I also meant my regular preferment Lehmann dough.  I have used that dough for so long, that sometimes in my head I just call it my regular Lehmann dough, because that is the dough I use every week. It has been awhile since I made a regular Lehmann dough. 

In those pictures that I posted it could have been the lighting that made those pictures look darker than they were.  I took those pictures just to show that my crusts were browner and there was more oven spring.  Those pictures were taken in my heated, humidified pizza holding cabinet. I think I also posted other pictures on this thread of pizzas in the heated, humidified holding cabinet that also affect the color in the pictures, but didn’t look though this thread to find them.  I had posted in Reply 623 that I know by each picture that is taken there can be a wide difference in how a pizza looks at the end of my post.  Then at my post at Reply 625 I posted that although the pizzas did look better, I really couldn’t notice that much difference in the taste of the pizzas.  After you had posted of why my poolish might have made a difference in the color of the crust and oven spring, then I had wished I had taken more pictures at market on Tuesday.

Sorry if I confused you on my posts.  I will wait and see what happens on Friday and this coming week.

Norma

[norma427]

I used a small twice frozen dough ball of this preferment Lehmann dough to make a 8" pizza for the monthly challenge at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11749.msg112327.html#msg112327

The technique I used to bake this pizza was only under the broiler, on a regular piece of aluminum foil.  This technique was easy because I only needed to rotate the pie with a spatula and a tong. After the top of the pizza was brown, then I just turned the pie over and broiled the other side for a shorter amount of time. This was a quick bake. I was surprised that the middle of the pizza didn’t balloon up because there were no toppings on this pizza.  I added the toppings after the bake, because this was a dessert pizza.  The toppings for this pizza were Nutella and toasted cinnamon raisin cubed bread. This pizza had a two inch rim.  The dessert pizza was tasty.  No need to use two pieces of aluminum foil for this experiment.  I used the same piece of aluminum foil to toast the cinnamon raisin cubed bread, while the oven was heating up, before I turned the broiler on.  Even got some of those elusive cat spots.  I had a slice of this dessert pizza this morning and it is still moist inside the rim.  Even no need for a pizza stone for this type of pizza.

In this test of oven broiler with aluminum foil and frozen twice dough ball, I was able to see that a dough ball can be frozen twice and still have oven spring and an oven broil only for a dessert pizza both work out okay.

Pictures below,

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[norma427]

When I went to market today to mix the poolish, there was another problem.  It had rained about 6" in our area in the last two days.  My vent must have been leaking or either water must have been pouring in from somewhere near the vent.  Some of my floor tiles were starting to come up from the water that was laying on the floor.  Now it is call a roofing man and also fix the tiles.  I did get everything cleaned up and made the poolish.  I only took one picture of the finished poolish, but found out my deli case that I had clean out when it froze up on a hot summer day, was higher than I had thought.  I checked the two thermometers and the one that was on the top shelf was higher than I thought.  It was 38 degrees F.  I turned the deli case down lower.  The Hatco unit was at the right temperature.  Hopefully the poolish will be okay on Monday.  I had also made another poolish, but only took a picture of the one.

Pictures of poolish, vent outside, vent inside, and floor tiles that came up.

Norma

[StrayBullet]

Damn, that sux Norma, but at least the damage doesn't appear to be too bad...I'm currently dealing with sinkhole issues so I know what you're feeling!

[norma427]

Damn, that sux Norma, but at least the damage doesn't appear to be too bad...I'm currently dealing with sinkhole issues so I know what you're feeling!

StrayBullet,

Yea, you never know what is going to happen.  Now I will have to crawl on top of the pizza oven to be able to paint the ceiling after the roof is fixed and get some kind of stuff to paste those darn tiles down. There are a bunch of loose tiles. Probably one sticky mess.   

Sorry to hear you have to deal with sinkholes.  Hope you get your sinkholes fixed.

Norma