Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

Norma - Just noticed your pizza dough hot dogs.  Those look great!  I might try that with a brat...

There is a French bakery here in town (Le Trompeau), that some mornings lately has had a REAL good a hot dog with emmentaler cheese wrapped in brioche dough with a dab of mustard.  The are real tasty.  Not sure why he started to do the hot dog thing along with his more traditional french breakfast croissant style.  The bakery just moved to a location about 3 min away too!

Paul,

Thanks for saying you like the pizza hot dogs.    I think they would really be good with Bratwurst.  I got the idea to try the pizza hot dogs from soft pretzel people in my area that make pretzel dogs.  The do wrap small sausages in the pretzel dough too.  There are very good.  I think almost any kind of regular Lehamann dough or other doughs could be used to make some kind of covering for any kind of meat in casings.

The French bakery hot dog with emmentaler cheese wrapped in brioche dough with a dab of mustard sounds really tasty.  You are lucky to live so close to be able to try them. 

Hope to see your posted Bratwurst creations sometime.

Norma

[norma427]

I took the pH reading of the preferment today and it was 5.44.  After the first final dough was mixed the pH was 5.55 The final temperature of the first batch of dough was 74.2 degrees F.  I usually then add water to what is left of the preferment in one container and let it sit in the deli case until I am ready to use the preferment for the second batch.  I don’t know why, but the second batch of dough had a pH of 5.65.  The final dough temperature on the second batch was 75.3 degrees F.  To me the preferment didn’t look as bubbly today as it usually does, but it seemed okay.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

These are some of the pictures of the preferment Lehmann dough pies made yesterday.  If anyone is interested, Peter and I were posting about how a preferment can affect dough, in my other thread.  Peter started in this post about how a some doughs, that uses a preferment or a natural leavening system, where the acid production are high enough to cause a strengthening of the dough can lead to the point where it is hard to open up the dough balls. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg144121.html#msg144121

In the following posts, using a preferment and the acids it can create are discussed because I have been having problems on and off with my preferment dough balls being hard to open.  The reason I started taking the pH numbers was because I wanted to see if I could understand more about if too many acids might be causing my dough balls not to open properly and also to see if I could learn more about crust coloration.

Hopefully until next week, I might be able to try some new methods so I don’t have the on and off problems of opening my dough balls.

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[norma427]

I only let the preferment ferment today for 40 minutes and had turned the Hatco Unit down to 110 degrees F.  I didn’t take a picture of what the preferment looked like, but will on Monday.  The preferment only bubbled a little on the top and tiny bubbles could be seen though out the poolish.  I also made a preferment for 5 dough balls to try out in my dough enchancer thread to add EL-7 to see if that helps with stretching issues I am having some times. I let the second preferment bubble the same. I didn’t take any pH readings because Craig posted he didn’t think pH readings could tell anything in my dough enhancer thread.

Norma

[norma427]

After reading over this article again, I am not to sure when in the fermentation process, of using a preferment, how is the best way to let a preferment ferment in terms of temperature, under the Table 5 show in the article.  The findings described in Pyler relative to the gassing power of yeast action on carbohydrates are interesting and of value to the baker it says in the article after a preferment is added.  http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm

The Fermentation Process

(For example, if 100 lb of flour will yield approximately 180 lb of dough, the degree of expansion in the dough during fermentation and proofing can be sustained by about 3.5% of fermentable carbohydrates, based on flour. Part of these carbohydrates may be comprised of the native sugars of flour, part may result from alpha-amylase action on damaged starch, and part may comprise added  sugar. Any sugar over and beyond the 3.5% level will show up as residual sugar in the finished bread. )

Table 5

Temperature

Deg. C        Deg. F    Maximum Gas Production Rate:   Time to Maximum gas Production rate (in Min.)
                                  In Millimoles CO /hr/g/
                                  Dry Yeast Solids

29           84             20                                                                    150
31           88             23                                                                    135
33           91             24.5                                                                    135
36           96             25                                                                    120
38          100             26                                                                      90
40          104             22.5                                                                      75
42          108             20                                                                      30

http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm


Norma

[norma427]

I took the pH reading of the preferment today, just to compare it too last  Monday.  The pH was 5.48.  The preferment looked a little more bubbly, at least to me.  I don’t know if the decreased temperature or shorter fermentation time, I used to ferment the poolish had anything to do with that or not.

I had also had a dough ball left in the pizza prep fridge when I went to market on Friday.  Somehow it must have been pushed to the back, and at the end of the night when I am tired and hot,  I just visually check the pizza prep fridge and don’t usually bend way down to see if something might be pushed into the back.  I will have to check more carefully since this is the second time this has happened.  I didn’t take a picture of the dough ball that had sat at room temperature (about 75 degrees F) for 3 days, but the dough ball was very flat and gray.  I just balled it Friday and stuck it back into the plastic bag and placed it into the deli case until today.  It was a sad looking mess today, but I tried to revive it to see what happens.  I place some yeast and more KASL on the dough ball and kneaded, with some additional water too.  The dough ball still doesn’t look that great, but I might try making bread with it tomorrow to see what happens.  On the one picture it can be seen how the dough ball looked beside a regular dough ball, before I did anything to it.

First picture is of the preferment today and the rest of the pictures are the sad looking dough ball.

Norma

[norma427]

If anyone is interested, I added the EL-7 product to the preferment Lehmann dough to see if it would help opening the preferment Lehmann dough balls.  The other pictures are at this post at Reply 109 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg144973.html#msg144973

The EL-7 added to the preferment Lehmann dough worked out well.  The dough was easy to open and the crust seemed to be moister since the EL-7 was added.  The taste of the final pizza with EL-7 tasted about the same as a regular preferment Lehmann dough pizza. 

Steve placed fresh basil from my garden on this pizza, so the preferment Lehmann dough with the EL-7 added was a Pizza Margherita, at least for this pie. 

Pictures below

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

It is good to see that the EL-7 worked out well with the preferment Lehmann dough. Do you plan to repeat the experiment to confirm your results, or will you simply make a larger batch with the EL-7 product since you now have a pretty good idea of how that product works and what to expect?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

It is good to see that the EL-7 worked out well with the preferment Lehmann dough. Do you plan to repeat the experiment to confirm your results, or will you simply make a larger batch with the EL-7 product since you now have a pretty good idea of how that product works and what to expect?

Peter

Peter,

The EL-7 did work well with the preferment Lehmann dough.  I will repeat the experiment to see if I get the same results before going on to a bigger batch.  The only thing that concerns me about using EL-7, besides the EL-7  having ingredients I don’t normally like to use, is the bubble that formed on top of the dough ball even after a one day cold ferment.  I have no idea why that happened.  I haven’t posted my results from my experiment of reducing the preferment temperature and time fermenting, but my results yesterday also were good in stretching the dough balls.  I don’t know if that was a fluke or not either.  I need to also repeat that same experiment this week.  The temperatures and humidity were quite high, and all the doughs handled beautifully.   It still intrigues me what is going on with some weeks having problems and some weeks not.

Later on today, I will post the pictures of the pizzas made with the shorter and lower temperature preferment time. 

Do you have any ideas about any of the things I posted?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

This past week seemed to me to be quite odd, especially with all the things that seemed to have affected the Old Faithful dough. So, I would personally feel more comfortable with more testing of all of the different doughs you made to see if some of the offending factors go away.

What is it about the EL-7 product that you do not like to use?

I forgot to ask you earlier but when you used less salt because of the salt in the EL-7 product, was there a lessened salt taste?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

This past week seemed to me to be quite odd, especially with all the things that seemed to have affected the Old Faithful dough. So, I would personally feel more comfortable with more testing of all of the different doughs you made to see if some of the offending factors go away.

What is it about the EL-7 product that you do not like to use?

I forgot to ask you earlier but when you used less salt because of the salt in the EL-7 product, was there a lessened salt taste?

Peter

Peter,

I know this past week has been odd, with trying the EL-7 in the “Old Faithful” dough and also the preferment Lehmann dough.  I have no idea why the dough seems to ferment faster or differently when using the EL-7 product in either doughs.
 
I have no problems experimenting with a product that has L-Cysteine in the ingredients, but like to manage a dough better if I can naturally.  If you had to choose, would you use a product that has  L-Cysteine in the ingredients for customers or even yourself?

To answer your question about using less salt in the “Old Faithful” dough formula, Steve thought the pizza needed more salt, but I didn’t.  Each persons tastes are different.  I did use the same amount of salt in the preferment Lehmann dough with EL-7, but I couldn’t notice it was too salty in that pizza. 

I will try the experiments over again for next week.

Norma

[norma427]

These are a few pictures of the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas that were made yesterday.  I posted earlier today, the dough balls were very easy to open.  I am not sure if lowering the temperature of the Hatco Unit and decreasing the time the preferment was in the Hatco Unit helped the batches of preferment Lehmann doughs I made or not.  I am going to repeat the same process this week and see what happens.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

This post is to tell what happened to the trying to be revived preferment Lehmann dough ball that I had left in non refrigerated pizza prep fridge last Tuesday for 3 days. I had posted Monday, that I did add yeast, a little flour, and some water to the grayish, about dead (or dead) looking dough ball.  Steve and I used the bad looking dough ball to try and make a baguette.  The picture I posted Monday is about what the dough ball stayed looking like until late Tuesday.  The baguette sure wasn’t the best looking baguette or didn’t have the rise it should have, but the slightly sour taste was really different.  Steve, a stand holder taste tester and I thought the taste was really different.  At least it shows a dead looking dough ball can be revived some.

Pictures below

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I have no problems experimenting with a product that has L-Cysteine in the ingredients, but like to manage a dough better if I can naturally.  If you had to choose, would you use a product that has  L-Cysteine in the ingredients for customers or even yourself?

Norma,

Given a choice, I would personally prefer to avoid using any conditioners in my doughs. But if I were a professional whose livelihood depended or benefited from making an essentially problem-free dough that is consistently reproduced, I would have no qualms about using a product like L-Cysteine or one that contains L-Cysteine, like the EL-7 product. In your case in which you used 1.42 grams (between 3/8 and 1/2 teaspoon) of the EL-7 product to make a dough ball for a 16" pizza, less than 2% of the 1.42 grams is L-Cysteine. That is less than 0.0284 grams. For a single slice (assuming 8 slices for the entire pizza), the amount of L-Cysteine comes to less than 0.00355 grams, or 3.55 mg. That is not much, and is unlikely to at a level to pose health issues. Otherwise, Caravan would have a duty to warn users.

If my math is correct, the cost of 1.42 grams of the EL-7 product is about a half a penny (for a 16" pizza) ($78.80 x 100 x 1.42)/(50 x 16 x 28.34) = 0.49 cents. I believe that you have several thousands of pizzas to go before you would have to buy more of the EL-7 product.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Given a choice, I would personally prefer to avoid using any conditioners in my doughs. But if I were a professional whose livelihood depended or benefited from making an essentially problem-free dough that is consistently reproduced, I would have no qualms about using a product like L-Cysteine or one that contains L-Cysteine, like the EL-7 product. In your case in which you used 1.42 grams (between 3/8 and 1/2 teaspoon) of the EL-7 product to make a dough ball for a 16" pizza, less than 2% of the 1.42 grams is L-Cysteine. That is less than 0.0284 grams. For a single slice (assuming 8 slices for the entire pizza), the amount of L-Cysteine comes to less than 0.00355 grams, or 3.55 mg. That is not much, and is unlikely to at a level to pose health issues. Otherwise, Caravan would have a duty to warn users.

If my math is correct, the cost of 1.42 grams of the EL-7 product is about a half a penny (for a 16" pizza) ($78.80 x 100 x 1.42)/(50 x 16 x 28.34) = 0.49 cents. I believe that you have several thousands of pizzas to go before you would have to buy more of the EL-7 product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about using the product EL-7 in a professional dough and also doing the calculations. I know Caravan would have to warn users if their product posed a health problem.  Half a penny isn’t much for a 16" pizza.  Several thousand pizzas sure sounds like a lot.  Hopefully, I still will be around to make that many pizzas.  I might mix enough preferment today to make 5 dough balls and then use the EL-7 product in the final dough mix on Monday to see if I would get the same results that I had on Tuesday.  At least it would be interesting to see how a bigger batch mixed in the Hobart would turn out.  Since I had the bubbling on the one dough ball, I wonder what would happen with making more dough balls at a time.  Doing things in more mass, seems to change things somehow.

Norma

[norma427]

I used the EL-7 product today in the final mix for 5 dough balls. 

Picture of 5 preferment Lehmann dough balls with EL-7.

Norma

[norma427]

I didn’t have any problems opening the dough balls today with using the same method I used in the last two weeks, of making the preferment with less heat and less time in the Hatco unit.  All the dough balls opened easily. 

I am not sure about the 5 doughs balls that had EL-7 added.  They were easy to open, but they didn’t seem to brown as well as the pizzas did when using my regular preferment Lehmann dough balls.  The dough balls with EL-7 didn’t get any big bubbles while in the plastic bags.  I don’t know, but think last week when the EL-7 was added at home to the preferment Lehmann dough, my refrigerator must have been hotter, that my dough balls did seem to ferment more.  I did post that I had made many hot foods and put them in the refrigerator to cool, so that might have made my refridgerator hotter.  I didn’t have time to take a lot of pictures today of the pizzas made with my regular preferment Lehmann dough balls or the 5 dough balls with the EL-7 added, because we were busy.  The first pictures up until the dough ball. were my regular preferment Lehmann pizzas and the dough ball was with EL-7 added. so it can be seen right before I opened that dough ball what it looked like.  The rest of the pictures after the dough ball, are with the EL-7 added.

Norma