Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 159513 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #875 on: June 29, 2011, 05:14:39 PM »
This post is to tell what happened to the trying to be revived preferment Lehmann dough ball that I had left in non refrigerated pizza prep fridge last Tuesday for 3 days. I had posted Monday, that I did add yeast, a little flour, and some water to the grayish, about dead (or dead) looking dough ball.  Steve and I used the bad looking dough ball to try and make a baguette.  The picture I posted Monday is about what the dough ball stayed looking like until late Tuesday.  The baguette sure wasnít the best looking baguette or didnít have the rise it should have, but the slightly sour taste was really different.  Steve, a stand holder taste tester and I thought the taste was really different.  At least it shows a dead looking dough ball can be revived some.

Pictures below

Norma


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #876 on: July 01, 2011, 11:07:30 AM »
I have no problems experimenting with a product that has L-Cysteine in the ingredients, but like to manage a dough better if I can naturally.  If you had to choose, would you use a product that has  L-Cysteine in the ingredients for customers or even yourself?

Norma,

Given a choice, I would personally prefer to avoid using any conditioners in my doughs. But if I were a professional whose livelihood depended or benefited from making an essentially problem-free dough that is consistently reproduced, I would have no qualms about using a product like L-Cysteine or one that contains L-Cysteine, like the EL-7 product. In your case in which you used 1.42 grams (between 3/8 and 1/2 teaspoon) of the EL-7 product to make a dough ball for a 16" pizza, less than 2% of the 1.42 grams is L-Cysteine. That is less than 0.0284 grams. For a single slice (assuming 8 slices for the entire pizza), the amount of L-Cysteine comes to less than 0.00355 grams, or 3.55 mg. That is not much, and is unlikely to at a level to pose health issues. Otherwise, Caravan would have a duty to warn users.

If my math is correct, the cost of 1.42 grams of the EL-7 product is about a half a penny (for a 16" pizza) ($78.80 x 100 x 1.42)/(50 x 16 x 28.34) = 0.49 cents. I believe that you have several thousands of pizzas to go before you would have to buy more of the EL-7 product.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #877 on: July 01, 2011, 11:54:11 AM »
Norma,

Given a choice, I would personally prefer to avoid using any conditioners in my doughs. But if I were a professional whose livelihood depended or benefited from making an essentially problem-free dough that is consistently reproduced, I would have no qualms about using a product like L-Cysteine or one that contains L-Cysteine, like the EL-7 product. In your case in which you used 1.42 grams (between 3/8 and 1/2 teaspoon) of the EL-7 product to make a dough ball for a 16" pizza, less than 2% of the 1.42 grams is L-Cysteine. That is less than 0.0284 grams. For a single slice (assuming 8 slices for the entire pizza), the amount of L-Cysteine comes to less than 0.00355 grams, or 3.55 mg. That is not much, and is unlikely to at a level to pose health issues. Otherwise, Caravan would have a duty to warn users.

If my math is correct, the cost of 1.42 grams of the EL-7 product is about a half a penny (for a 16" pizza) ($78.80 x 100 x 1.42)/(50 x 16 x 28.34) = 0.49 cents. I believe that you have several thousands of pizzas to go before you would have to buy more of the EL-7 product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about using the product EL-7 in a professional dough and also doing the calculations. I know Caravan would have to warn users if their product posed a health problem.  Half a penny isnít much for a 16" pizza.  Several thousand pizzas sure sounds like a lot.  Hopefully, I still will be around to make that many pizzas.  I might mix enough preferment today to make 5 dough balls and then use the EL-7 product in the final dough mix on Monday to see if I would get the same results that I had on Tuesday.  At least it would be interesting to see how a bigger batch mixed in the Hobart would turn out.  Since I had the bubbling on the one dough ball, I wonder what would happen with making more dough balls at a time.  Doing things in more mass, seems to change things somehow.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #878 on: July 04, 2011, 05:45:45 PM »
I used the EL-7 product today in the final mix for 5 dough balls. 

Picture of 5 preferment Lehmann dough balls with EL-7.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #879 on: July 05, 2011, 10:23:09 PM »
I didnít have any problems opening the dough balls today with using the same method I used in the last two weeks, of making the preferment with less heat and less time in the Hatco unit.  All the dough balls opened easily. 

I am not sure about the 5 doughs balls that had EL-7 added.  They were easy to open, but they didnít seem to brown as well as the pizzas did when using my regular preferment Lehmann dough balls.  The dough balls with EL-7 didnít get any big bubbles while in the plastic bags.  I donít know, but think last week when the EL-7 was added at home to the preferment Lehmann dough, my refrigerator must have been hotter, that my dough balls did seem to ferment more.  I did post that I had made many hot foods and put them in the refrigerator to cool, so that might have made my refridgerator hotter.  I didnít have time to take a lot of pictures today of the pizzas made with my regular preferment Lehmann dough balls or the 5 dough balls with the EL-7 added, because we were busy.  The first pictures up until the dough ball. were my regular preferment Lehmann pizzas and the dough ball was with EL-7 added. so it can be seen right before I opened that dough ball what it looked like.  The rest of the pictures after the dough ball, are with the EL-7 added.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #880 on: July 05, 2011, 10:26:31 PM »
Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #881 on: July 11, 2011, 05:37:34 PM »
Some of preferment Lehmann dough balls made today, that are in the bottom of my pizza prep refrigerator, waiting to be made into pizzas tomorrow.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #882 on: July 13, 2011, 10:11:39 AM »
What is another day without some problems.  :-D  My pizza prep refrigerator always keeps my dough really cold, but for some reason, which I still donít know, the pizza prep refrigerator was at 50 degrees F, when I arrived at market yesterday.  The temperature control knob is way in back of where I store the dough balls and is hard to turn, so I donít have any idea if that knob could have been moved or not.  I sure didnít move it.  I removed the dough balls and trays of dough and fiddled with the knob.  In about an hour the temperature of the pizza prep fridge was back to normal, but I was concerned how my dough balls were going to perform during the day, because they usually do expand some during the course of a day.  It was hot at market yesterday, so I knew I couldnít let my dough balls warm-up too long, but with the problems of the dough already fermented a lot, it had me wondering what would happen.  The dough was very sticky when taking it out of the plastic bags, but when floured, the dough balls opened up easily.  I had to break big bubbles on almost every dough ball before I opened them.  I only took one picture of the second pie that came out of the oven, but other pizzas made yesterday did get browner on the rim.  The pictures I wanted to post are what the dough balls looked like in the morning when I arrived at market, how a dough ball looked later in the day, and two pictures of what the inside of the dough balls looked like when the bubble was popped.  The gluten matrix can be seen on the pictures of the popped bubbles

Norma

Offline lennyk

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #883 on: July 13, 2011, 03:37:27 PM »
Hi Norma,

Do you remove the dough from the bags whilst they are still frozen/hard
if not doesn't it make a mess to come out of the bag when soft and all bubbled up ?

L


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #884 on: July 13, 2011, 05:42:27 PM »
Hi Norma,

Do you remove the dough from the bags whilst they are still frozen/hard
if not doesn't it make a mess to come out of the bag when soft and all bubbled up ?

L

lennyk,

I donít remove the dough balls from the plastic bags when they are frozen.  If I have any leftover dough balls from one week, I do freeze them, but put them in the refrigerator for one day to defrost.  Last week I ran out of dough balls.  This week since it was so hot in our area, I had leftover dough balls.  It is always a balancing act, to know how many dough balls to make, especially since I start my preferment Lehmann dough on a Friday.  I can watch the weather, but that always isnít a good predictor of what will happen with the weather by Tuesday.  After my dough balls were almost overblown yesterday, I was thinking about what to do with the ones that were left.  I donít know what will happen, but I did reball them at the end of the market day, and put them back in the plastic bags to be frozen.  I donít know how those dough balls will behave next week, after they are defrosted. 

Normally my dough balls that are in plastic bags, are easy to come out of the plastic bags, whether fresh or frozen.  I do have to watch how long I let the dough balls warm-up when the temperatures are as hot as yesterday were.  Since the preferment Lehmann dough isnít that high of a hydration dough, usually there arenít the problems I had yesterday. 

If I didnít answer any of your questions, let me know, and I will try to explain.

Norma

Offline lennyk

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #885 on: July 13, 2011, 10:16:35 PM »
thanks, I'm gonna try using bags and see how it goes removing.

L

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #886 on: July 13, 2011, 10:27:36 PM »
thanks, I'm gonna try using bags and see how it goes removing.

L


lennyk,

I started using plastic bags at the advice of Tom Lehmann at this post on PMQTT  http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7481&p=50613&hilit=+plastic+bags#p50613 because I didnít have room at market to store all my dough balls.

When I make test dough balls, I do use plastic containers.

Best of luck using the plastic bags.  :) I think you will be okay as long as the doughs arenít really high hydration doughs.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #887 on: July 18, 2011, 06:24:59 PM »
I left the preferment part of the Lehmann dough only ferment for 25 minutes in the Hatco Unit at 110 degrees F Friday.  The preferment only bubbled a tiny bit, before it put it into the deli case.  This is what the preferment looked like today, before I incorporated it into the final dough.  The heat conditions at market today werenít the best for making dough.  I did test my pizza prep refrigerator and it seemed fine today.  

Pictures of preferment today and temperature at market.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #888 on: July 20, 2011, 08:28:12 AM »
My pizza prep fridge did keep the lower temperature, from Monday to Tuesday this week.  I still am not sure what happened that my pizza prep fridge acted up last week, but think it might have been my pizza prep fridge was pushed against the wall. The vent where the heat goes out is in the back. The wheels are locked on the pizza prep fridge, but the fridge can be pushed back, without too much effort.  

It seems like the 25 minute at 110 degrees preferment heat-up on Friday, in the Hatco Unit, is going well for the preferment.  There was no trouble opening the dough balls yesterday.  

Picture of dough balls in the pizza prep fridge yesterday, a few pizzas make yesterday, two regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas made with reballed overfermented dough from last week that was frozen, and another Greek Pizza made with the preferment Lehmann dough.  I would like to add more cheese on the Greek pizzas, but since cheese is becoming more expensive, I only add what I think I need.  The dough for the Greek pizzas was really rolled out with a heavy rolling pin and docked heavily, but as can be seen the rim still want to rise.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #889 on: July 20, 2011, 08:32:03 AM »
First picture is of pizza made with preferment Lehmann dough made Monday, and the other two pictures are of the overfermented dough balls there were reballed and then frozen until Monday.  

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #890 on: July 20, 2011, 08:33:58 AM »
Greek pizza made with the preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #891 on: July 22, 2011, 04:37:29 PM »
If anyone is interested in what the preferment looks like after the 25 minutes at 110 degrees F (in the Hatco Unit). before it goes into the deli case for 3 days, this is what it looks like.

Norma


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #892 on: July 27, 2011, 12:18:45 PM »
I probably wonít be posting on this thread for awhile.  I was trying to see if I could get consistent results with the prefement in my Hatco Unit, and trying to understand why sometimes my dough balls were harder to open than other times.  The method I have been using, to let the preferment ferment for about 25 minutes at 110 degrees F, with minimal development, seems to be working well.  Even this week when my deli case was higher in temperature,  than it should have been, (because frost and ice forming on my top coils) the preferment when incorporated into the final dough did work well.  The preferment on Monday was really bubbly, but there wasnít any liquid on the bottom.  All my dough balls were easy to open yesterday.  I donít know if I solved the mystery of why some of the doughs made the doughs balls hard to open, but right now it seems like the problem is solved, after trying the same experiment for a few weeks. 

Pictures of a few pizzas from yesterday.

Norma

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #893 on: July 27, 2011, 04:41:48 PM »
Your pies STILL sure look wonderful Norma! I enjoyed reading about your progress over time.
 :)
-Bill

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #894 on: July 27, 2011, 06:09:01 PM »
Your pies STILL sure look wonderful Norma! I enjoyed reading about your progress over time.
 :)

Bill,

Thanks for your kind words!  :)  When you have many dough balls to deal with, and the temperatures aren't even the same or close to the same week after week, there can be challenges.  Then to try a make a preferment on a Friday and incorporate it into the final dough on Monday adds more challenges.  At least for now, my dough is behaving.   :)

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #895 on: July 30, 2011, 10:54:08 PM »
Well, I guess I lied.  I said I wouldnít be posting on this thread for a little while. I decided to use a frozen preferment Lehmann dough to try out in my new BBQ grill set-up.  I took the frozen dough ball out of the freezer and then cut off part of the dough ball, when it was partly defrosted.  If anyone is interested, the pictures and what I posted are at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg148289.html#msg148289  and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg148294.html#msg148294  I called that dough my mystery dough, but it really was a last minute decision to use a frozen preferment Lehmann dough ball for my BBQ grill.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 08:15:37 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #896 on: August 01, 2011, 08:34:17 AM »
Norma,

Pictures of preferment Lehmann dough made on my BBQ grill.

Norma

« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 04:25:21 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #897 on: August 10, 2011, 09:12:24 AM »
This post is just to explain how aggressively the preferment Lehmann dough is rolled out with my heavy rolling pin, and also aggressively docked to be able to make a Greek pizza.  I start out by rolling the dough (with my heavy rolling pin), then aggressively docking the dough on both sides (many times), to be able to make a pizza from this dough.  The dough still rises in the pan, so the preferment Lehmann dough must be pretty strong to be able to still rise, in a steel pan.  It amazes me that the preferment Lehmann dough can be abused so much, and still make a decent pie.

This Greek pizza was dressed with herb infused oil, tomato sauce, 3 kinds of white cheddars, mozzarella, and spinach.  The edges of the Greek pizza do get nice and crunchy from the cheeses melting down on the sides of the steel pan.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #898 on: August 10, 2011, 09:15:05 AM »
Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #899 on: August 10, 2011, 09:16:36 AM »
Norma