Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

I also made a S’Mores pizza tonight with a frozen preferment Lehmann dough ball.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Was the commingled dough pizza baked in Steve's oven?

BTW, did you notice that you passed the basic Lehmann NY style dough thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html in terms of number of posts (replies) and total pages?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Was the commingled dough pizza baked in Steve's oven?

BTW, did you notice that you passed the basic Lehmann NY style dough thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html in terms of number of posts (replies) and total pages?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, the commingled dough pizza was baked in Steve’s WFO.  The pizza sure tasted different than the pizza I had made at market, even with using the exact same dough, sauce and mozzarellas.  That just goes to show what a difference a WFO can make. 

When it was time to make the S’Mores pizza it was slightly drizzling, getting dark, and the dough, peel, and everything was getting wet.  I would have thought the S’Mores dough would have puffed up more when it was in the oven, but it didn’t.  We kinda pre-baked the skin.  Until we got all the toppings together the crust was almost wet.  I would think if we had made the preferment Lehmann dough into a regular pizza there would have been spotting on the rim too, but I don’t know.  At least everyone like the S’Mores pizza.  I really enjoy baking and tasting a pie make in a WFO, thanks to Steve. 

To answer your question about me seeing that the number of posts and pages has surpassed the basic Lehmann NY style thread, I didn’t notice that.  You sure set-forth a great formula for market and me.

Thanks so much!     

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I forgot to mention in my last post a friend of Steve's was also at his home tonight and bought some of his doughs.  They were low hydration doughs and he rolled then out, then first baked the skin on one side, brought it out of the oven, then topped the baked side and it went back into the oven again.  Those pies tasted just like I would like a cracker-style pie to taste.  They were crispy, thin, and delicious.  I know this post is off-topic, but it did happen tonight.

Norma

[Essen1]

Norma,

That's one hell of a pillowy crust in those cheese pie pics! One could sleep on that pizza 

Btw, if your thread also exceeds the number of views of the Lehmann dough thread, I'll open a bottle of Veuve Clicquot in your honor.

[norma427]

Norma,

That's one hell of a pillowy crust in those cheese pie pics! One could sleep on that pizza 

Btw, if your thread also exceeds the number of views of the Lehmann dough thread, I'll open a bottle of Veuve Clicquot in your honor.

Mike,

That puffy crust from the commingled dough, shows what a WFO can do that a deck oven can’t. 

I know my thread will never exceed the number of views the basic Lehmann thread has, but I appreciate you would be willing to open a bottle of Veuve Clicquot in my honor.  I never even tasted decent wine. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Btw, if your thread also exceeds the number of views of the Lehmann dough thread, I'll open a bottle of Veuve Clicquot in your honor.

Mike,

It is highly unlikely that the Lehmann thread will be overtaken in page views anytime soon, for several reasons. First, the Lehmann thread has become an iconic thread, dating back many years to September, 2004, and is for a style of pizza--the NY style--that is the most popular pizza style on the forum. There are also many members who have their notification settings set such that they are notified of any new posts on the thread. But, even apart from that, the Lehmann thread racks up page views at a very fast rate. For example, since January of this year, when the Lehmann thread crossed the quarter million page view mark, there has been an increase of over 42,000 page views with only 25 new posts. I think the reason for this is that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a simple one and can be practiced by just about anyone in a home setting with basic equipment and a standard unmodified home oven.

Also, there are a lot of versions of the Lehmann NY style recipe in the Lehmann thread and they are set forth in a lot of detail. From what I can see, especially from my perch as a Moderator, people love recipe threads, especially those where the recipes are self-contained and do not require them to read pages of posts to come up with recipes. I believe that there is a large, silent majority of people out there all around the world who do not register and do not post, but are quietly lurking and scouring the forum for recipes. Many of these people have joined the forum recently because they have to in order to be able to conduct searches (most likely for recipes). Otherwise, there would have been no need to join.

What Norma has done with the preferment Lehmann dough recipe is noteworthy in that it is adapted to her unique situation where everything has to be done at market in accordance with the rules set forth by the people who run the market, and the pizzas that Norma makes are baked on only one day—Tuesday. And she has done it using a more complicated recipe when she could have just used the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe and rested. She has also taken the recipe to a new level by creating many new and inventive incarnations and uses for the recipe. In so doing, she has been gracious and generous enough to share what she has done with the forum and in a commmercial setting that most of us do not have an opportunity to experience. I think what she has done already merits celebration, including hoisting a few glasses from the Veuve Cliquot.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

I hear you. I wasn't trying to imply that Norma's work isn't noteworthy or valuable to this forum. Au contraire.

It is and I'm sure many have learned from her, including me when it came to comparing pizzas made in a home oven and in her commercial setting with great success albeit the belly flop I just experienced yesterday with one of the Luigi clones. The reason I mentioned Veuve Clicquot was to indicate that her thread, even if it won't surpass the Lehmann thread in views, which is a tough record to break, is just as substantial and respected than a great bottle of champagne.

[norma427]

Mike and Peter,

Thanks for the kind words!  I have enjoyed this journey with the preferment Lehmann dough, as I have posted before.  Wish I could taste that fine wine now. 

Norma

[gabaghool]

Norma

I take it that instant yeast is the yeast of choice for home pizza makers.  But, as far as I know, NONE of the top pizzerias in Ct used anything but cake yeast.  Im sure some do, but I don't know of any.  Why all the instant yeast fans??

Thanks.


Also....would a preferment REALLY be neccesary if you have a three day cold fermantation process??

Thanks again.

[Jackitup]

Norma

I take it that instant yeast is the yeast of choice for home pizza makers.  But, as far as I know, NONE of the top pizzerias in Ct used anything but cake yeast.  Im sure some do, but I don't know of any.  Why all the instant yeast fans??

Thanks.


Also....would a preferment REALLY be neccesary if you have a three day cold fermantation process??

Thanks again.

Shelf life. IDY will keep in fridge almost idefinitely in an air tight glass container, cake yeast is about 1-2 weeks I think.
Jon

[Matthew]

Shelf life. IDY will keep in fridge almost idefinitely in an air tight glass container, cake yeast is about 1-2 weeks I think.
Jon

I have some cake yeast that I have had for over a month that looks & smells the same as day 1.  What I do is wrap it tightly in plastic wrap & then place it in a food saver container & vacuum seal it using the canister tube on my food saver.

Matt

[norma427]

Norma

I take it that instant yeast is the yeast of choice for home pizza makers.  But, as far as I know, NONE of the top pizzerias in Ct used anything but cake yeast.  Im sure some do, but I don't know of any.  Why all the instant yeast fans??

Thanks.


Also....would a preferment REALLY be neccesary if you have a three day cold fermantation process??

Thanks again.

gabaghool,

IDY or ADY are easy choices of yeasts to use for home pizza makers.  I also like fresh cake yeast and have use cake yeast in different doughs.  IDY is the easiest yeast to use, for home pizza makers and some pizza businesses, because it doesn’t need hydrated. I would believe your formula with cake yeast would be very good.  I never tried this formula with cake yeast.

To answer your question as would a three day preferment dough really be necessary, the answer is no. I first started by using a regular Lehmann dough. I then tried a longer fermented Papa John’s dough.  I then graduated when Peter helped me, by setting forth a preferment dough for market. The reason for starting the preferment on a Friday and only letting it bubble a little and then cold fermenting it until Monday is I can’t get into market over the weekend, and I need the preferment ready for Monday when I incorporate it into the final dough and then let it cold fermented for one day.  I don’t know what you think, but I think a preferment adds more of an artisan look and taste to the crust and rim.  I would like to use a sourdough starter, and have tried, but since my market temperatures are all over the place, it would be too hard for me to achieve that. I have other threads where I tried to incorporate a preferment sourdough, into the Lehmann dough, but I stopped after thinking it really wouldn’t work well at market.

Norma

[gabaghool]

Well Norma....I LIKE the idea of a preferment....at least all the books I've read it helps in taste and appearance....BUT, in practice, in a busy restaurant, its an extra step, a step that could very easily be screwed up and skipped entirely by employees.....so Im hesitant.  In the other case....a long 3 day cold ferm, we mix, portion, roll and refer.  Its simple and effective.  Now, Im always trying to improve, but sometimes I look at something and think "can I do this"....when in fact I should be thinking "is this something I trust EMPLOYEES doing"..........and Im sad to admit that if you give them ANYTHING with the least bit of difficulty (creating a preferment, aging it properly) they will, eventually, try to find shortcuts....to the detriment of your product.

I'd LOVE to go natural starter.....but I might as well put a bullet to my head.  My operation is simply too big.  A long cold ferment is the best call..................I THINK.

By the way, your pizzas look fantastic, love the crumb.

ANd you know a _____load about pizza.

Thank you for the response.

[norma427]

Well Norma....I LIKE the idea of a preferment....at least all the books I've read it helps in taste and appearance....BUT, in practice, in a busy restaurant, its an extra step, a step that could very easily be screwed up and skipped entirely by employees.....so Im hesitant.  In the other case....a long 3 day cold ferm, we mix, portion, roll and refer.  Its simple and effective.  Now, Im always trying to improve, but sometimes I look at something and think "can I do this"....when in fact I should be thinking "is this something I trust EMPLOYEES doing"..........and Im sad to admit that if you give them ANYTHING with the least bit of difficulty (creating a preferment, aging it properly) they will, eventually, try to find shortcuts....to the detriment of your product.

I'd LOVE to go natural starter.....but I might as well put a bullet to my head.  My operation is simply too big.  A long cold ferment is the best call..................I THINK.

By the way, your pizzas look fantastic, love the crumb.

ANd you know a _____load about pizza.

Thank you for the response.

gabaghool,


I can understand in a busy restaurant or a busy pizzeria, it could be hard to trust employees to do everything right and not take shortcuts.  Your way of doing a 3 day cold ferment sounds like you really care about your taste of your pizzas.  Most local pizzerias near me sure don’t do a cold ferment for 3 days.  In fact, I don’t know of any that do a 3 day cold ferment.

Maybe you could get some more advice if there is any better way to make your dough, from some of the more experienced pizza makers here on the forum.  Making pizza in a home setting and doing the same thing in a commercial setting are two different things.  At home you can watch the dough, use a starter or not, cold or warm temperature ferment the dough and not worry a lot.  If you try to do the same thing in a commercial setting and something fouls your dough up, it is altogether different.  There are pizza makers here on the forum that can take their doughs to the next level, in a commercial setting.

Thanks for your kind words about my pizzas.  When I first started making pizza, I didn’t know anything about making pizza.  It was this forum and all the helpful members that have taught me all I know.  I try to continue to learn more each day.

Norma

[Jackitup]

I have some cake yeast that I have had for over a month that looks & smells the same as day 1.  What I do is wrap it tightly in plastic wrap & then place it in a food saver container & vacuum seal it using the canister tube on my food saver.

Matt

I agree it can be kept that long but as you said it takes a little xtra care. On average about 2 weeks would be it for most. If not baking on a 'regular' basis I think most would find more consistant results with the IDY. I also love cake yeast, I think the flavor is different but if I don't use it enough I'm just tossing it out. With the IDY I've been able to coax those flavors out with starters and pre-ferments.
Jon

[norma427]

This post is just to compare my bakes last week with the commingled doughs, and also comparing some of my Greek Style pizzas made last week with different amounts of manteca added to the steel pan. This post is also to compare the bread sticks I had made from the commingled dough last week at Reply 925 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg152240.html#msg152240          

I haven’t really compared my bake times for a long while since I had played around with using different temperatures in the deck oven.  I did time a lot of regular pizzas made with the preferment Lehmann dough yesterday.  The bake temperatures were running between 500-525 degrees F.  My bake times on all the pies that I did time were between 4 ½ minutes to 5 minutes. I wouldn’t think the pies would bake that fast with the lower temperatures, but they do.  I also didn’t take any videos of Steve cutting the regular preferment Lehmann pizzas, but all of them do have a crunch when cut.  Maybe next week, if I remember, I will take a few videos of the preferment Lehmann pizzas being cut.  It now makes me wonder what temperatures other pizza operators are running their deck oven at and what are their bake times.

For the first Greek style pizza made, the steel pan was oiled with 2 tablespoons manteca. As can be seen, there was a lot of oil left in the pan after the bake.  For the other Greek style pizza, made later in the evening for a customer that wanted a whole Greek style pizza, I only used 1 tablespoon of manteca to grease the steel pan.  There still was manteca left in the pan after the bake.  I don’t know if my steel pans are becoming more seasoned or what, but it doesn’t seem like I need as much manteca  to grease the pans.  The bottoms still have a nice crunch either way.  The only problem I now might have is the Mexican store where I purchased the Mexican manteca was flooded in the storms we had last week.  When I went past the Mexican store recently, the store is empty, and I am not sure if they had insurance. or if they are going to open again.

For the cheesy breadsticks I did open the dough balls up by hand this week. I had been rolling the dough with my rolling pin for awhile.  I don’t know what other members think, but I think I do like the cheesy breadsticks better, when they are opened by hand.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma