Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 155809 times)

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Offline gabaghool

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #950 on: September 10, 2011, 03:54:17 PM »
Norma

I take it that instant yeast is the yeast of choice for home pizza makers.  But, as far as I know, NONE of the top pizzerias in Ct used anything but cake yeast.  Im sure some do, but I don't know of any.  Why all the instant yeast fans??

Thanks.


Also....would a preferment REALLY be neccesary if you have a three day cold fermantation process??

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 04:12:24 PM by gabaghool »


Offline Jackitup

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #951 on: September 10, 2011, 04:34:15 PM »
Norma

I take it that instant yeast is the yeast of choice for home pizza makers.  But, as far as I know, NONE of the top pizzerias in Ct used anything but cake yeast.  Im sure some do, but I don't know of any.  Why all the instant yeast fans??

Thanks.


Also....would a preferment REALLY be neccesary if you have a three day cold fermantation process??

Thanks again.

Shelf life. IDY will keep in fridge almost idefinitely in an air tight glass container, cake yeast is about 1-2 weeks I think.
Jon
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Online Matthew

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #952 on: September 10, 2011, 05:09:40 PM »
Shelf life. IDY will keep in fridge almost idefinitely in an air tight glass container, cake yeast is about 1-2 weeks I think.
Jon

I have some cake yeast that I have had for over a month that looks & smells the same as day 1.  What I do is wrap it tightly in plastic wrap & then place it in a food saver container & vacuum seal it using the canister tube on my food saver.

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #953 on: September 10, 2011, 05:15:04 PM »
Norma

I take it that instant yeast is the yeast of choice for home pizza makers.  But, as far as I know, NONE of the top pizzerias in Ct used anything but cake yeast.  Im sure some do, but I don't know of any.  Why all the instant yeast fans??

Thanks.


Also....would a preferment REALLY be neccesary if you have a three day cold fermantation process??

Thanks again.

gabaghool,

IDY or ADY are easy choices of yeasts to use for home pizza makers.  I also like fresh cake yeast and have use cake yeast in different doughs.  IDY is the easiest yeast to use, for home pizza makers and some pizza businesses, because it doesnít need hydrated. I would believe your formula with cake yeast would be very good.  I never tried this formula with cake yeast.

To answer your question as would a three day preferment dough really be necessary, the answer is no. I first started by using a regular Lehmann dough. I then tried a longer fermented Papa Johnís dough.  I then graduated when Peter helped me, by setting forth a preferment dough for market. The reason for starting the preferment on a Friday and only letting it bubble a little and then cold fermenting it until Monday is I canít get into market over the weekend, and I need the preferment ready for Monday when I incorporate it into the final dough and then let it cold fermented for one day.  I donít know what you think, but I think a preferment adds more of an artisan look and taste to the crust and rim.  I would like to use a sourdough starter, and have tried, but since my market temperatures are all over the place, it would be too hard for me to achieve that. I have other threads where I tried to incorporate a preferment sourdough, into the Lehmann dough, but I stopped after thinking it really wouldnít work well at market.

Norma
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Offline gabaghool

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #954 on: September 10, 2011, 05:44:22 PM »
Well Norma....I LIKE the idea of a preferment....at least all the books I've read it helps in taste and appearance....BUT, in practice, in a busy restaurant, its an extra step, a step that could very easily be screwed up and skipped entirely by employees.....so Im hesitant.  In the other case....a long 3 day cold ferm, we mix, portion, roll and refer.  Its simple and effective.  Now, Im always trying to improve, but sometimes I look at something and think "can I do this"....when in fact I should be thinking "is this something I trust EMPLOYEES doing"..........and Im sad to admit that if you give them ANYTHING with the least bit of difficulty (creating a preferment, aging it properly) they will, eventually, try to find shortcuts....to the detriment of your product.

I'd LOVE to go natural starter.....but I might as well put a bullet to my head.  My operation is simply too big.  A long cold ferment is the best call..................I THINK.

By the way, your pizzas look fantastic, love the crumb.

ANd you know a _____load about pizza.

Thank you for the response.

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #955 on: September 10, 2011, 06:19:29 PM »
Well Norma....I LIKE the idea of a preferment....at least all the books I've read it helps in taste and appearance....BUT, in practice, in a busy restaurant, its an extra step, a step that could very easily be screwed up and skipped entirely by employees.....so Im hesitant.  In the other case....a long 3 day cold ferm, we mix, portion, roll and refer.  Its simple and effective.  Now, Im always trying to improve, but sometimes I look at something and think "can I do this"....when in fact I should be thinking "is this something I trust EMPLOYEES doing"..........and Im sad to admit that if you give them ANYTHING with the least bit of difficulty (creating a preferment, aging it properly) they will, eventually, try to find shortcuts....to the detriment of your product.

I'd LOVE to go natural starter.....but I might as well put a bullet to my head.  My operation is simply too big.  A long cold ferment is the best call..................I THINK.

By the way, your pizzas look fantastic, love the crumb.

ANd you know a _____load about pizza.

Thank you for the response.

gabaghool,


I can understand in a busy restaurant or a busy pizzeria, it could be hard to trust employees to do everything right and not take shortcuts.  Your way of doing a 3 day cold ferment sounds like you really care about your taste of your pizzas.  Most local pizzerias near me sure donít do a cold ferment for 3 days.  In fact, I donít know of any that do a 3 day cold ferment.

Maybe you could get some more advice if there is any better way to make your dough, from some of the more experienced pizza makers here on the forum.  Making pizza in a home setting and doing the same thing in a commercial setting are two different things.  At home you can watch the dough, use a starter or not, cold or warm temperature ferment the dough and not worry a lot.  If you try to do the same thing in a commercial setting and something fouls your dough up, it is altogether different.  There are pizza makers here on the forum that can take their doughs to the next level, in a commercial setting.

Thanks for your kind words about my pizzas.  When I first started making pizza, I didnít know anything about making pizza.  It was this forum and all the helpful members that have taught me all I know.  I try to continue to learn more each day.

Norma
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Offline Jackitup

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #956 on: September 10, 2011, 06:44:56 PM »
I have some cake yeast that I have had for over a month that looks & smells the same as day 1.  What I do is wrap it tightly in plastic wrap & then place it in a food saver container & vacuum seal it using the canister tube on my food saver.

Matt

I agree it can be kept that long but as you said it takes a little xtra care. On average about 2 weeks would be it for most. If not baking on a 'regular' basis I think most would find more consistant results with the IDY. I also love cake yeast, I think the flavor is different but if I don't use it enough I'm just tossing it out. With the IDY I've been able to coax those flavors out with starters and pre-ferments.
Jon
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #957 on: September 14, 2011, 11:54:58 AM »
This post is just to compare my bakes last week with the commingled doughs, and also comparing some of my Greek Style pizzas made last week with different amounts of manteca added to the steel pan. This post is also to compare the bread sticks I had made from the commingled dough last week at Reply 925 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg152240.html#msg152240          

I havenít really compared my bake times for a long while since I had played around with using different temperatures in the deck oven.  I did time a lot of regular pizzas made with the preferment Lehmann dough yesterday.  The bake temperatures were running between 500-525 degrees F.  My bake times on all the pies that I did time were between 4 Ĺ minutes to 5 minutes. I wouldnít think the pies would bake that fast with the lower temperatures, but they do.  I also didnít take any videos of Steve cutting the regular preferment Lehmann pizzas, but all of them do have a crunch when cut.  Maybe next week, if I remember, I will take a few videos of the preferment Lehmann pizzas being cut.  It now makes me wonder what temperatures other pizza operators are running their deck oven at and what are their bake times.

For the first Greek style pizza made, the steel pan was oiled with 2 tablespoons manteca. As can be seen, there was a lot of oil left in the pan after the bake.  For the other Greek style pizza, made later in the evening for a customer that wanted a whole Greek style pizza, I only used 1 tablespoon of manteca to grease the steel pan.  There still was manteca left in the pan after the bake.  I donít know if my steel pans are becoming more seasoned or what, but it doesnít seem like I need as much manteca  to grease the pans.  The bottoms still have a nice crunch either way.  The only problem I now might have is the Mexican store where I purchased the Mexican manteca was flooded in the storms we had last week.  When I went past the Mexican store recently, the store is empty, and I am not sure if they had insurance. or if they are going to open again.

For the cheesy breadsticks I did open the dough balls up by hand this week. I had been rolling the dough with my rolling pin for awhile.  I donít know what other members think, but I think I do like the cheesy breadsticks better, when they are opened by hand.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 11:56:30 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #958 on: September 14, 2011, 11:58:28 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #959 on: September 14, 2011, 12:01:01 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #960 on: September 14, 2011, 12:02:50 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #961 on: September 19, 2011, 07:33:15 PM »
I had a member that did PM me about how my Bakerís Pride deck oven is made and works.  I did send the member this document and it shows on page 10 how the GP-61 Bakerís Pride deck oven is put together. http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Instal%20ops/Counter%20Top/GP-51-61%20Inst-Op%20U4128A%201-08.pdf
The member asked me if I could take some pictures of where the burner is, how the side channels go up to let hot air over the pizzas and also the decks.  I said I couldnít take pictures of the burner, because it is behind a lot of panels and if I took it apart, I never would get it back together again.  I told the member I would take pictures of the Bakerís Pride deck oven today, when the oven was cold.  If someone else can explain how this deck oven works by the diagrams, they can explain.  I sure donít know how it works, I just bake pizzas in the oven.  :-D

If anyone wants any explanations on what is what, just ask.  I am posting it under this thread, because this is where I used this deck oven to make the preferment Lehmann pizzas.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #962 on: September 19, 2011, 07:35:13 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #963 on: September 19, 2011, 07:36:32 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #964 on: September 21, 2011, 02:18:40 PM »
For anyone that is interested in what the Bakerís Pride GP-61 propane deck oven looks like right after the pilot is lit, and the gas is turned on for the burners to light, these pictures were taken yesterday morning, right after the oven was turned on.  There is some kind  of round orifices that go into a long row of orifices that all burn.  The bright glowing yellow light is the pilot light.  The blue flames are the burners.  I couldnít really take a pictures of the how the burners at lit in the back of the oven.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #965 on: September 21, 2011, 02:25:51 PM »
These are three pictures of a Greek pie I made yesterday morning using 1 teaspoon of manteca to oil the steel pan.  The bottom crust did get crunchy from only 1 teaspoon of manteca added, and there was even manteca left on the steel pan after the bake. Even the part of the bottom crust that doesnít look as brown as the other side was still crunchy.  It now makes me wonder if any manteca needs to be added since my steel pan is getting more seasoned.  Another thing that makes me wonder is why the mild white cheddar I bought in a 43 lb. block last week, doesnít brown the edges of the Greek pie as well as other cheeses do.  I thought I applied enough of the mild white cheddar, but I donít know the answer to why there isnít any crusty edges.  I made other Greek style pizzas yesterday, and noticed the same thing.  When a friend of mine (Randy) tasted the mild white cheddar, just eating it regularly and not baked on a pie, he said the mild white cheddar does taste like Longhorn cheese, but it doesnít have any holes in the cheese.  Steve and I then tasted the mild white cheddar and both thought the same thing.  I couldnít really describe before how the mild white cheddar tasted. 

This Greek style pizza was dressed with garlic herb infused olive oil, my regular sauce, spinach, mild white cheddar, and 3 tomatoes from my garlic that were cut.  The tomatoes were Green Zebra, small yellow pears, and a San Marzano.

Maybe next week if I have time to mix the other Greek formula MA #2 and Steve brings his 10" steel pans to market, I will compare how a Greek formula MA #2 compares with a preferment Lehmann dough Greek pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #966 on: September 26, 2011, 05:44:07 PM »
If anyone is interested, these are two videos.  One video is of my 20 qt. Hobart mixer, mixing without any dough in the mixer.  I try to watch how the Hobart mixer mixes my preferment Lehmann dough each week, and then try to get my Kitchen Aid Profession HD mixer to mix the dough about the same way.  The second video is of my Kitchen Aid Professional HD mixer without any dough in the mixer either.  The 20 qt. Hobart mixer was only on speed 1 the whole time the video was taken.  When turning on my Kitchen Aid Professional HD, I accidentally turned it on a faster speed than I wanted to at first.  The other speeds were one and two.  I havenít tried to count the revolutions per minute each mixer has, but they do look somewhat similar to me.

20 qt. Hobart mixer video. 
Kitchen Aid Professional Pro video.


Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #967 on: September 28, 2011, 07:32:06 AM »
I had a few extra dough balls that were frozen and defrosted yesterday morning, so I decided to try something different with one dough ball.  I just stretched out the dough ball, rolled a little, then added just a blend of mozzarellas and mild white cheddar on the skin, then folded it over and over, pushed the ends together, then cut two holes in the skin, then baked.  The top of the skin was brushed with garlic herb infused olive oil before the bake. I donít know what to call what product was made, but it was served with sauce.  It was another use for the preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #968 on: September 28, 2011, 07:34:36 AM »
One pizza was left in the oven too long yesterday, and it turned too brown on the rim and bottom crust to sell to customers, but Steve thought it didnít look to bad and took it home to eat later.  The pie that was baked too long did have a definite crunch when cut and really a crispy bottom.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #969 on: October 10, 2011, 06:29:40 PM »
I only wanted to take one video of my 20 qt. Hobart mixer mixing a 15 lb. batch of dough today, but somehow, I must have touched the button on the camera to shut it off several times.  The water and preferment are already in the mixer bowl, then I added KASL, IDY on the one side, and salt on the other side.  After the dough was mixing well, I drizzled the olive oil down the edge of the mixer bowl.  It is a little dark at market on a Monday, so these videos might not be the best.  After the olive oil in mixed a little, then I set the timer for 6 minutes.  These are also the pictures I took when I must have stopped the video.  The last video shows how my finished dough looks before balling.  If anyone is interested in seeing how my preferment Lehmann dough is mixed, these are the videos for one batch of dough.  The first pictures are of what my preferment looks like on a Monday, before I mix the preferment into the final dough.  The preferment hasn't been failing me for a long time, since I started timing how long the preferment heats in the Hatco unit.  I make the preferment on a Friday to be incorporated into the final dough on a Monday, because of time restraints at market.






Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #970 on: October 10, 2011, 06:30:51 PM »
Norma
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Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #971 on: October 11, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »
Norma, from what I can tell the Hobart (on speed 1) is doing about 80 revolutions per minute.  It looks like the Kitchen Aid is also doing 80 revolutions per minute.  Was the Kitchen Aid on speed 2 of 10?

Thanks for including the videos of mixing.  What intrigued me is the dough taking on a "pillowy" look when completed, which from your video is about 7 minutes, 1 minute pre-oil and 6 minutes post-oil.  Are you able to acheive this same look and feel when using the Kitchen Aid?

Danes Dad

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #972 on: October 11, 2011, 10:01:06 PM »
Norma, from what I can tell the Hobart (on speed 1) is doing about 80 revolutions per minute.  It looks like the Kitchen Aid is also doing 80 revolutions per minute.  Was the Kitchen Aid on speed 2 of 10?

Thanks for including the videos of mixing.  What intrigued me is the dough taking on a "pillowy" look when completed, which from your video is about 7 minutes, 1 minute pre-oil and 6 minutes post-oil.  Are you able to acheive this same look and feel when using the Kitchen Aid?

Danes Dad

Danes Dad,

It is good you could tell the amount of revolutions per minute on my Hobart and Kitchen Aid mixer.  My Kitchen Aid mixer was on speed one too, except when I first turned it on.  You are right it takes about 7 or 8 minutes total time to mix my preferment Lehmann dough in the Hobart.  I am almost able to achieve the same look and feel of the dough with my Kitchen Aid mixer.  The only thing with my Kitchen Aid mixer is I might need to stop it and scrap some lose flour off the sides.  If you ever want me to take a full video of my Hobart mixing the preferment Lehmann dough, I will try again without interruptions.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #973 on: October 12, 2011, 07:29:45 AM »
A few of the pies that were made from the preferment Lehmann dough batch on Monday.  These pies werenít the best looking pies, (from the batch I showed the videos of the dough in the Hobart mixer) but ones I thought to just quickly snap pictures of.

Norma
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Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #974 on: October 14, 2011, 06:38:45 PM »
Norma,

This thread's been a great read and I now have a preferment in the fridge based on the %'s Pete and you came up with at reply#149.  Planning on 3 days in fridge then mix with remaining components and back to the fridge for at least 24hrs.  Will let you know how it turns out.

The main problem i'm having with my doughs (Lehmann w/o preferement) is the dreaded gum line.  I have tried topping with oil just before baking, but the gum line remains (i may have over oiled the dough).  I'm cooking in electric oven with corderiette(?) stone on bottom shelf at 550 degrees for about 5 1/2 minutes, then 1 minute under broiler.

If you get a chance on the next pizza you make (one that your not trying to sell) could you take a picture of a slice with the cheese lifted?  I'd like to see what the top of your dough looks like.  This request also goes out to Pete and any others willing to share photos.

Thanks.  Danes Dad