Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 127993 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #260 on: February 23, 2010, 10:43:08 PM »
Norma,

Can you refresh my memory on the timeline for the dough and pizzas using the poolish and diastatic malt? That is, what was the protocol/times for the poolish, the final mix, cold fermentation, etc.?

Also, did you detect any differences between the crusts with the diastatic malt and without it?

And how did the pizzas with the diastatic malt taste?

I assume that all of the pizzas, including the Sicilian-style pizza in the deep-dish pan, were baked at market. Is that correct?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 10:46:50 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #261 on: February 23, 2010, 11:05:40 PM »
Peter,

The poolish was made last Friday at market and then left in the deli case until Monday.  I then incorporated the poolish into the final dough along with the diastatic malt on Monday.  The poolish preferment Lehmann dough was left to cold ferment until today.

In my opinion the crusts with the diastatic malt seemed to have more browning when baked.  I am always fiddling around with the temperature of my oven in 25 degree increments, so I am not sure if it was the diastatic malt or my oven temperature. 

The pizzas made with the diastatic malt tasted good, but I canít say I noticed a big difference.  I did have two customers that bought the pizza tell me that was the best crust they ever tasted.  Who knows if this was the first pizza they bought from me or not.  I do have regular customers and they were not any of them. 

You are correct, the Sicilian and the other test dough balls were all made at market today. 

I am happy to be able to produce a Sicilian pizza from this same formula.  :)  I did just win (lol) some rectangular deep-dish pans on Ebay and am anxious to get them and see how they work.  More experimenting.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #262 on: February 23, 2010, 11:19:40 PM »
Norma,

I can't say that I noticed a contribution to the crust flavor either because of the diastatic malt. I believe the major contribution of the diastatic malt is to crust coloration because of higher residual sugar levels. I think using nondiastatic malt is more likely to contribute to crust flavor, as well as color.

At least you didn't end up with a gummy dough using the diastatic malt so the percent you used appears to be a safe level.

Is your next experiment to be the use of the Hatco unit to preferment the poolish for a larger dough batch, or are you still unable to get the Hatco unit to market?

The latest pizzas look quite tasty. It looks like you are making steady progress.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #263 on: February 23, 2010, 11:31:10 PM »
Peter,

If all goes well this week, I do plan on taking the Hatco Merchandiser to market to be able to test a larger batch of poolish.  They are calling for snow again this Thursday.  I will have to wait and see it the snow materializes.  I would either take the unit to market Thursday or Friday. 

What kind of numbers am I looking at for a larger batch of poolish?  Do I just takes 10 times the numbers for a 10 lb. batch of final dough to try?

Yes, it seems like steady progress.  Next will be the bigger test, to see if my Hatco Unit is able to make a larger batch of poolish.

Thanks for going over this,

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #264 on: February 23, 2010, 11:43:25 PM »
What kind of numbers am I looking at for a larger batch of poolish?  Do I just takes 10 times the numbers for a 10 lb. batch of final dough to try?

Norma,

Is there a particular dough batch size or number of dough balls you would like to make? And would you be using diastatic malt?

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #265 on: February 23, 2010, 11:54:25 PM »
Peter,

I usually use 15 lb. batches of dough in my mixer.  Sometimes if I need extra dough, but not a full batch, then I use 10 lb. batches of dough.  Numbers for 15 lb. of dough would probably be a good starting point.  No, I donít plan on using the diastatic malt, until I try out the poolish in the Hatco unit.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline briterian

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #266 on: February 24, 2010, 10:32:22 AM »
Made this recipe for the first time last night.  I made 5 dough balls and used 2 last night after a 1 day fridge ferment of the dough.  Prior to that I did a 2 day fridge ferment of the poolish. Pics are below.  We liked it but didn't love it.  I changed one thing and that is I cooked it at around 525 for about 8-9 min.  My wife likes a crunch when she bites into a crust and that didn't happen. I cooked it at a lower temp (and longer) hoping that might help. I did like the blistering I got on the rim. I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting the bottom of the crust to 'crunch' when you bite into it.  Is this not the recipe that'd do that?  For the remaining three dough balls I was going to try to cook it at around 675 in my bakers pride and also try to place a screen on top of the stone and see if I can get some more air under it.  I also have thought of a two stage cook process.  Cook for 4 minutes - take out let cool and then put back in for 3 min but that seems like too much work.    Overall, the dough handled very nicely and had nice flavor. 

See pics:

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #267 on: February 24, 2010, 02:48:48 PM »
briterian
I didnít have any problems with the crust being crunchy as you can see at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90651.html#msg90651 baked at home in my oven at 450 degrees F and the crust baked at market in my Bakerís Pride GP-61 baked between 525-550 degrees F. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91071.html#msg91071
Let me know what results you achieve when you try this poolish preferment with the Lehmann dough, again.  Could you tell me what current formula you are using, before this formula?  I didnít have any problems with the regular Lehmann dough being crunchy, either.  :-\
Hopefully someone can get this figured out for you.

Your pies look very tasty.  :)

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #268 on: February 24, 2010, 02:58:37 PM »
I usually use 15 lb. batches of dough in my mixer.  Sometimes if I need extra dough, but not a full batch, then I use 10 lb. batches of dough.  Numbers for 15 lb. of dough would probably be a good starting point.


Norma,

The poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation that you have been using for the five pizza dough batch is the one at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. The calculated weight of the dough produced using that formulation is 5.61 pounds. For a 15-pound dough batch you would have to multiply the numbers for the five pizza example by 15/5.61 = 2.674. However, the easier and better approach would be to just use the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, using 15 pounds as the desired dough batch weight (with a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%). Of course, you will have to go through carving up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the Final Mix part. If you need help with that, let me know.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #269 on: February 24, 2010, 03:16:40 PM »
Norma,

The poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation that you have been using for the five pizza dough batch is the one at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. The calculated weight of the dough produced using that formulation is 5.61 pounds. For a 15-pound dough batch you would have to multiply the numbers for the five pizza example by 15/5.61 = 2.674. However, the easier and better approach would be to just use the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, using 15 pounds as the desired dough batch weight (with a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%). Of course, you will have to go through carving up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the Final Mix part. If you need help with that, let me know.

Peter





Peter,

I think I will just start with the number of dough balls I want to try the poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough. That way I wonít have to carve up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the final mix part.  I sure am not good with numbers and knowing how to do all of that. 

Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #270 on: February 24, 2010, 03:44:08 PM »
I think I will just start with the number of dough balls I want to try the poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough. That way I wonít have to carve up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the final mix part.

Norma,

How do you plan to do that? For example, will you just use the five pizza dough batch numbers, say, for a total of three times, to make 15 dough balls?

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #271 on: February 24, 2010, 03:54:56 PM »
Hi Norma,
I used reply 149 for the recipe.  It was definitely good stuff but when you bite into didn't crunch within the internal section of the crust like it did within the outer crust area.  I'm doing another pie tonight and will let you know. I plan to back at 675 for 3 minutes and put a screen under it and back it another 2 and see how that turns out.  I hope that's a good idea since I think this dough can take the high heat since there is no sugar in it.

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #272 on: February 24, 2010, 04:25:59 PM »
Peter,

I could either use the pizza batch numbers for 5 dough balls and take the numbers times 3 for 15 dough balls or take the single numbers for a single dough ball at reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226 and take that times the number of dough balls, I want to try.

Norma

briterian,

In the pictures of your pizza it looks like the crust is thin.  What kind of thickness factor did you use when making these pizzas.  My pizza has a thickness factor of 0.08932.  I really donít know what you are experiencing is related to. 
When I use the pizza cutter to cut my pies, you can hear the crunch.  As can be seen on the pictures made in the bakerís pride oven, I do obtain char on the bottom crust.  I really donít know if the problems you are experiencing are related to oven temperature.  With my home oven and my oven at market, I have to adjust the times baked to try and achieve the same results.  At home my temperature doesnít go high enough to get a char.
It will be good to hear your results with a higher oven temperature.  That is something I have wanted to try for awhile, but never did.

What kind of hydration do you usually use when making your pies that do have more crunch?  I am not that experienced in trying different variables at this time.  I have only been making pizza for less than a year.

Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #273 on: February 24, 2010, 05:37:27 PM »
Norma,

Your approach should work but it may be prone to errors in execution if there are too many steps. To simplify this matter, and since you specified a 15-pound dough batch as a likely size dough batch for your commercial operations, I have set forth below the profile for such a dough batch.

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (Dough Batch Size of 15 Pounds)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
4207.16 g  |  148.4 oz | 9.28 lbs
2566.37 g  |  90.52 oz | 5.66 lbs
16.83 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.59 tsp | 1.86 tbsp
73.63 g | 2.6 oz | 0.16 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.27 cups
42.07 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.35 tsp | 3.12 tbsp
6906.06 g | 243.6 oz | 15.23 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
1026.3 g  |  36.2 oz | 2.26 lbs
1026.3 g  |  36.2 oz | 2.26 lbs
3.08 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
2055.67 g | 72.51 oz | 4.53 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough batch weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                         2055.67 g | 72.51 oz | 4.53 lbs
Remaining Total Formula Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3288%):
3180.74 g  |  112.2 oz | 7.01 lbs
1540.01 g  |  54.32 oz | 3.4 lbs
13.75 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.57 tsp | 1.52 tbsp
73.62 g | 2.6 oz | 0.16 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.27 cups
42.27 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.39 tsp | 3.13 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                  6906.06 g | 243.6 oz | 15.23 lbs

When you are ready for a 10-pound dough batch, let me know. That way, you will have a one dough ball, five dough ball, 10-pound and 15-pound versions.

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #274 on: February 24, 2010, 05:54:15 PM »
Peter,

Thank you so much for doing all the numbers, again.  :)  How long did it take you to figure this out?  I appreciate you taking the time to go over this, again. 
Hopefully the Hatco unit will work out, since you have spent so much time on the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #275 on: February 24, 2010, 06:36:00 PM »
Norma,

The hardest and most time consuming part is to get all of the numbers to line up  ;D. As you may have noted, I used the expanded dough calculating tool to do the number crunching for the three parts of the exercise. Then I have to make sure that all of the numbers add up.

Since I was working with all of the numbers, here is the 10-pound version:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (Dough Batch Size of 10 Pounds)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
2804.78 g  |  98.93 oz | 6.18 lbs
1710.91 g  |  60.35 oz | 3.77 lbs
11.22 g | 0.4 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.72 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
49.08 g | 1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs | 8.79 tsp | 2.93 tbsp
28.05 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.23 tsp | 2.08 tbsp
4604.04 g | 162.4 oz | 10.15 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
684.2 g  |  24.13 oz | 1.51 lbs
684.2 g  |  24.13 oz | 1.51 lbs
2.05 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
1370.45 g | 48.34 oz | 3.02 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough batch weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         1370.45 g | 48.34 oz | 3.02 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3288%):
2120.49 g  |  74.8 oz | 4.67 lbs
1026.67 g  |  36.21 oz | 2.26 lbs
9.17 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.04 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
49.08 g | 1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs | 8.79 tsp | 2.93 tbsp
28.18 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.26 tsp | 2.09 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 4604.04 g | 162.4 oz | 10.15 lbs

Peter

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #276 on: February 24, 2010, 07:45:42 PM »
Norma,

The hardest and most time consuming part is to get all of the numbers to line up  ;D. As you may have noted, I used the expanded dough calculating tool to do the number crunching for the three parts of the exercise. Then I have to make sure that all of the numbers add up.



Peter,

I noted how you used the expanded dough calculating tool to do the number crunching for the three parts of the exercise. 

Thanks for the 10 lb. batch,

Norma
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Offline briterian

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #277 on: February 25, 2010, 04:59:31 PM »
660 degree oven, 3 min on stone, 3 min on screen with screen on stone.  Turned out much better.  The high heat helped.   I do think this recipe has too much yeast in it. Next time I'll prob half it.

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #278 on: February 25, 2010, 08:17:08 PM »
660 degree oven, 3 min on stone, 3 min on screen with screen on stone.  Turned out much better.  The high heat helped.   I do think this recipe has too much yeast in it. Next time I'll prob half it.


briterian,

I am glad you think the higher heat helped to make this formula better.  I am not an expert on what would happen if you would cut the yeast by half.  I didnít have any problems with this formula of over fermenting and Peter stepped up the yeast because of my cooler environment at market.  The extra yeast was added to provide more fermentation activity and the warmer water was added to prepare the poolish to speed up the fermentation process.  I might need to change all this once the weather gets warmer. 
I really donít know what temperatures you were preparing this formula in.  Maybe Peter has other ideas about the yeast for you.
It was interesting to hear you achieved good results at a higher over temperature.  That is something I would like to try someday.

Thanks for sharing you pictures and views on this formula,

Norma
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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #279 on: February 25, 2010, 08:39:06 PM »
I do think this recipe has too much yeast in it. Next time I'll prob half it.

Brian,

Can you tell me what led you to this conclusion?

Peter