Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

Jim,

Your bread sticks and ravioli look great.    LOL, putting your poolish in a time out to see if it will behave better.  This dough does behave well, no need for a time out for the poolish or final dough.  If you decide to give it another shot, here are some things I did different this week.  I will see tomorrow if this new experiment does work.

Norma

For anyone that is following this thread this is what I did different this week.

I put the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough in the final mix cold and also didn’t heat the water for the final mix.  The water was only 62 degrees F.  My final dough temperature was only 68 degrees F.  The poolish wasn’t left to bubble as much last Friday.  It did have the same amount of bubbles after the 3 day cold ferment.  I put two dough balls into two different size plastic containers and put poppy seeds, spaced at 1" apart on both.  I will take measurements tomorrow to see how much the dough ferments while using this colder final mix temperature. The temperature at market today was 68 degrees F.  The humidity today was 68% humidity, because it has been raining here today. 

These pictures are of the poolish today and the kind of spatula I use to mix the poolish.  The second picture is of the flexible dough scraper I use to take the poolish out of the container and also to scrape the sides of the mixer down.  The third picture is of the two plastic containers I placed the dough balls in with the added poppy seeds. The one container is just a plastic container and the other container is a cambro container.  I use a 12 qt. container to mix the poolish for a 15 lb. batch.

Norma

[norma427]

The new experiment for the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well.  The dough that had a final temperature of 68 degrees preformed the same as last weeks dough.  I left the dough warm up for various times and it didn’t have any extensibility.  This recent dough performed better with the Sicilian pizza in my opinion.  I pushed out the dough with my fingers in a 12" deep-dish pan and let it proof at room temperature for 3 hours, covered with a linen towel..  The crust did get more airy than the previous Sicilian pizzas.  I also made another kind of breadsticks with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I used caramelized onions along with the herb mixture and Romano cheese.. 

Last week I froze the two test dough balls from the regular Lehmann dough and the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I forgot to take a picture last week of a side view so I could compare how much the two dough expanded upward it the same size bowls.  I let the two dough defrost at room temperature and let them on the counter for 4 hours.  They didn’t expand anymore, but they still worked out well when making a pies. 

The one thing that has me puzzled is about the two dough balls that I put the poppy seeds on yesterday.  I did put the dough balls in two different size containers.  The one was wider in diameter than the other.  I put the little measurement tool on both doughs today at two different times.  One at 8:30 in the morning and one at 3:30 this afternoon.  They both were kept in the deli case and only taken out for the measurements.  The dough in the container that was larger had more space between the poppy seeds, than the other dough that was smaller in diameter.  My guess is you can’t use two different size of containers and be able to measure with accuracy how much the dough ferments, because there were two different measurements with exactly the same dough balls.

Another experimental 12" Take and Bake pizza.

Picture 1 8:30 this morning test dough in larger container
Picture 2 8:30 this morning test dough in smaller container

Picture 3 3:30 this afternoon test dough in larger container
Picture 4 3:30 this afternoon test dough in smaller container

Picture 5 Cheesy breadsticks with caramelized onions and Romano cheese

Picture 6 Sicilian pizza

Picture 6 unfrozen Lehmann dough on left and unfrozen poolish preferment for Lehmann dough on right from last week

Picture 8 test Take and Bake 12" pizza for this week

Norma

[norma427]

other four pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I am glad to hear that the latest poolish version of the Lehmann dough turned out well. Do you plan to use the cooler poolish going forward?

You indicated that the dough after tempering did not have any extensibility. Do you mean that the dough was elastic, with snapback?

It's interesting how the two dough balls with the poppy seeds performed. I almost never make two dough balls at a time so I have never done side by side comparisons. I wonder whether different size containers can affect the extent of fermentation in some way by altering the geometry of the dough balls.

I really like the looks of the Sicilian pizza.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Since I have tried this experiment with using a cold poolish and also a cooler final dough and it has worked well, I am going to go forward with this method.  I think this also will work in warmer weather.  Only time will tell.  This whole method is a lot easier.  Even the poolish did well with only letting it ferment for less time.

I meant my dough didn’t have the extensibility that I found in this post. There was no snap-back.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg92834.html#msg92834

That was when I had more problems opening the dough later in the day.

I was also puzzled by this experiment with the two dough balls.  If I had just taken the one dough ball and then just measured it with the poppy seeds, in one size container, I wouldn’t have found out how differently the poppy seeds moved.  I really can’t understand how you can accurately measure how much the dough ferments after I tried the two different size containers.

Thanks for saying you liked the looks of the Sicilian pizza.  The crumb was so moist, tasty and airy, I couldn’t have asked for more.

Thanks,

Norma

[norma427]

I made the poolsh preferment Lehmann dough 12" Take and Pizza that I brought home last night, late this evening.  The only thing different I did was let the aluminum foil under the parchment paper.  This pizza took longer to bake.  I watched it like a hawk, while it was in the oven though the glass door.

Next week I think I am going to try a par-baked pizza for the Take and Bake because years ago a place near us had a delicious Take and Bake pizza that was par-baked and you just took it home and baked for a little. The pizza could then also be frozen and baked at another time. The pizza place is still there, but the pizza went down hill.

Norma

[hotsawce]

Looks great for a take and bake, Norma. Better than nearly everything in my area, actually.

[norma427]

Looks great for a take and bake, Norma. Better than nearly everything in my area, actually.

hotsawce,

Thanks for saying the pie looks great for a Take and Bake.    I am just trying out this experiment and others with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough to see if there are ways to make a pie and be able to make it the next day in an easy way.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I have been curious about the poppy seed trick and how the results were from last week.  I did freeze the two dough balls with the poppy seeds and am going to see tomorrow after they are unfrozen if I can tell anymore differences in them. 

I plan on making two more dough balls today with the poppy seeds to see if I can tell anymore differences in using different containers.  I will be using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Can you think of any other kinds of tests I could do using the poppy seed trick to see if this trick really works in finding out how much the dough ferments?

I will call this the joust in the tournament of the poppy seed test.  It reminds me of the Renaissance Faire were have here in this area.  This is a picture from our Renaissance Faire.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The timing of your last post is perfect  . In view of your recent experience in using the poppy seed method, I decided to conduct my own experiment. I made two dough balls to make two 14" pizzas, with each dough ball weighing 399 grams and both based on the basic Lehmann dough formulation (with a hydration of 62%). In fact, the two dough balls came from the same dough batch. I tried to form the two dough balls so that they were as close to each other in shape and geometry as possible. I placed one of the dough balls in a one-quart glass Pyrex bowl and the other in a 1 3/4-quart Pyrex glass bowl. I placed the two bowls in my refrigerator side by side so that they would be exposed to the same refrigerator environment as much as possible. Over the course of about 2 1/2 days, I checked the spacing of the poppy seeds on a few occasions. After doing so each time, I switched the positions of the two bowls when I returned them to the refrigerator. After two days, there was essentially no difference in the spacing of the poppy seeds, although the dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl slouched more than the dough ball in the one-quart bowl, and its shape was a bit more oval than round such that its dimensions were a bit different than the other dough ball. After a bit over 2 1/2 days, the dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl developed such that the spacing between the two poppy seeds was about 1/16" greater than the spacing of the two poppy seeds of the other dough ball. Unless one measured the spacing, the difference wouldn't have been particularly noticeable. The dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl at that point was still a bit oval in shape and its height was a bit less than the other dough ball which, by that time, had spread to touch the walls of its bowl, making its shape almost perfectly round.

The photo below shows the two doughs balls. The dough ball in the one-quart Pyrex glass bowl is shown on the right. The dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart Pyrex glass bowl is on the left.

In your case, you eventually will know what your dough balls should look like, making it unnecessary to use the poppy seed method. But my experiment was consistent with my prior use of the poppy seed method. As November has mentioned, the poppy seed method is not perfect or intended to provide a highly accurate technical measurement. Its merit is its simplicity.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I find your experiment very interesting.  I have different sizes of Pyrex bowls here at home and will take two over to market.  The one container I used last week was a Glad container that had curved edges.  The other container was a Cambro container that had straight edges.  I will do the experiment and see if the two different curved Pyrex bowls do make a difference.  I will see if I can get more consistency this week.

The poolish went well again last Friday, so hopefully everything will go okay today. The water at market was warmer when I added it to the flour. I didn’t heat the water, but the temperature and water at market were higher. The poolish then took 10 less minutes to develop to the point as the week before. 

I think by doing these experiments with the poolish preferment, using different water temperatures and higher temperatures in the Hatco Unit, I can now understand more what to do when I up all my dough to using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.

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And so the joust and tournament will begin..

Thanks for doing the experiments and reporting your results,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

The one container I used last week was a Glad container that had curved edges.  The other container was a Cambro container that had straight edges.

Norma,

Over about the past year or so, I have been using pretty much the same storage containers for my dough balls. That way, I reduce the number of variables and I can relate results to each other, even for different experiments, without having to take into account the type of container, its material, its size, its shape or its wall thickness, all of which might affect the results. But, even then, I don't just say that a particular dough ball expanded by a particular amount based on the spacings of the poppy seeds. I try to always give the times it takes for the dough balls to reach particular sizes, like doubling or tripling. So, even if the poppy seed results were wrong, someone would still have a pretty good chance of replicating my results if my instructions are followed.

It is perhaps also useful to keep in mind that doughs change the longer they sit in their containers and as the fermentation approaches its outer limit. The gluten structure can degrade and water might be released from its bond, causing the overall structure of the dough to change such that the poppy seed method becomes less reliable. The same might apply to doughs with very high hydrations that result in doughs that have little internal stuctural support.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Over about the past year or so, I have been using pretty much the same storage containers for my dough balls. That way, I reduce the number of variables and I can relate results to each other, even for different experiments, without having to take into account the type of container, its material, its size, its shape or its wall thickness, all of which might affect the results. But, even then, I don't just say that a particular dough ball expanded by a particular amount based on the spacings of the poppy seeds. I try to always give the times it takes for the dough balls to reach particular sizes, like doubling or tripling. So, even if the poppy seed results were wrong, someone would still have a pretty good chance of replicating my results if my instructions are followed.

It is perhaps also useful to keep in mind that doughs change the longer they sit in their containers and as the fermentation approaches its outer limit. The gluten structure can degrade and water might be released from its bond, causing the overall structure of the dough to change such that the poppy seed method becomes less reliable. The same might apply to doughs with very high hydrations that result in doughs that have little internal stuctural support.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the additional information and about using the same size containers to keep the variables down so you can give predicable results for someone that wants to try your formulas. 

I used two Pyrex bowls the same sizes that you used.  I covered the dough balls in the Pyrex containers with disposable shower caps to see how that goes. I will measure them again tomorrow.

The only difference in my test today, was to make the final dough temperature a little colder. The final dough temperature was 61 degrees F. I want to see what effect this has on the dough tomorrow.  If this goes well, then I think I will be able to make all my dough with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I wanted to experiment these last few weeks with different things, so I would understand more what can happen with the poolish and final dough.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[norma427]

Well the jousting battle of the poppy seeds seemed to show their skill today.  They helped me gain skills of learning.    The poppy seeds used in the two different Pyrex containers did show the same size of spacing at different times.  Although the dough in the smaller container did rise more, there weren’t any measurable differences in the two doughs using the poppy seed method while it was fermenting from yesterday until late today.

The lower final dough temperature didn’t seem to make any difference when making the pizzas today.  The dough did ferment some from yesterday.  The pictures show how it fermented from this morning until late this afternoon.  All the pizzas made with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well today. 

I also used the two poolish preferment for Lehmann dough balls that were frozen from last week and they worked out well, too..

Another thing that made me happy today was the inspector was at my stand and I didn’t receive any violations.   

Picture 1 one dough ball this morning in Pyrex bowl-both measurements were the same for both dough balls

Picture 2 both dough balls this afternoon, side by side

Picture 3 first pizza this morning with final dough temperature lower than before

Picture 4 pizza made late in the afternoon

Picture 5 crumb of pizza made late in the afternoon

Picture 6 bottom crust of pizza made late in the afternoon

Norma

[norma427]

somehow picture 2 got cut off at the side  ..rest of pictures

[Pizza Rustica]

Hi Norma,

I have to say your pizza looks amazing!

I have been enjoying your thread. Could you please let me know your latest formula and methodology. Thanks.

[norma427]

Pizza Rustica,

Thanks for saying you enjoyed reading this thread and also saying the pizza looks amazing. 

This is the formula for one day ball for a 16" pizza as Peter set forth.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

If you want the formula for 5 test dough balls I used. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687

When mixing the poolish it will be very thick.  I use a sturdy spatula.  I take off any sticky poolish with a flexible dough scraper, or something similar, so you don’t lose any poolish.  If you want to try to make this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough let the poolish sit out at room temperature or if you have a proofer, let it sit covered in a container until you see some big bubbles in the poolish.  The times for the poolish bubbling has varied for me.  It will all depend on your room temperature.  Just watch it.  Then put the poolish into the refrigerator for 3 days.  I mix the final dough this way after experimenting with the best way to mix it.  First put the water in the mixer, then the poolish, (take poolish out of container with either flexible dough scraper or your hand).  It will be sticky. Scrap the sides of container with the poolish in so you can get all the poolish out. Then add flour, IDY on one side of flour, and salt on other side of flour.  Mix until all flour is picked up.  Then drizzle oil down the side of bowl and continue mixing until dough looks mixed.  This takes about 3 minutes or a little longer in my commercial Hobart 20 qt mixer.  If you are using a home mixer it might be a different amount of time to mix the dough.  I usually don’t mix my dough really long, because I have found the dough seems to get to the right consistency after the cold ferment.  Ball dough or dough balls right away and cold ferment for at least 18 hours.  I have found that a lower final dough temperature does work out with this dough.  Let the dough sit out to warm up for at least an hour.  I use a commercial Baker’s Pride oven and the temperature is between 525-550 degrees F on the hearth.  After the dough ball has warmed -up, put the dough it flour and lightly dust.  Put some flour on the surface you will be opening the dough.  Press your fingers around the dough making sure you don’t press on the rim.  When picking up this dough to finish opening by hand, I have found this dough almost opens itself by going around the dough with my hands.  It is really easy to open. 

I use KASL flour.

I will wait and see if Peter has any additional instructions for you, since he is the one that figured out this formula.  It is basically a regular Lehmann dough sliced up to come up with a poolish preferment. The dough is 61 % hydration.  If you have any other questions, just ask. 

I also have one last final test for this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Since Friday is Good Friday, market will be closed, so I will have to make the poolish on Thursday.  Hopefully this works out for a 4 day poolish.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Sometime you might try using the tip that member heavy-d gave me at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7327.msg65843.html#msg65843 to more easily get the poolish out of its container. His post was in response to my post at Reply 6 in the same thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7327.msg63286.html#msg63286.

I also have an update for you on the two dough balls I reported on earlier using the poppy seed method. I ended my experiment because the dough balls had reached the point to be used. In fact, it was a day longer than I had designed the dough to last (by the amount of yeast I used, etc.). By the end of three days of cold fermentation, the poppy seeds for the dough ball that went into the larger Pyrex glass bowl (1 3/4-quart size) started to widen more than the poppy seeds on other dough ball in the 1-quart Pyrex glass bowl, by about 1/8". The dough ball in the larger bowl had flattened more because there was more room for it to do that whereas the dough ball in the smaller bowl had already expanded laterally to touch the sides of the bowl such that the only way left to expand was upwardly. So, the smaller dough ball looked nice and round and plump. I had no way to know whether the two dough balls expanded by the same amount because of their different shapes but it is possible that there were differences. November had cautioned me that there are factors that can cause the poppy seed readings to be less reliable. Maybe that happens if the dough ball is allowed to expand too much laterally. I concluded that for me the better choice based on the sizes of dough balls I make is to use the smaller bowl rather than the larger bowl. That is pretty much what I have been doing anyway.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for sharing the tip heavy-d gave you.  That makes sense on how that tip would work, when using the final dough water and just pouring down the sides of the container into the poolish.  I will try that the next time.  I didn’t think about it before, but the poolish does seem just like a gelatin.

heavy-d tip-“The poolish being all gelatin like and filled with CO2 will float off the container walls like a balloon in a bath tub.”  This could help anyone if they wanted to try to make the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough or other poolishes for their dough.

Thanks for the update on your experiment with the poppy seeds.  I could see by this weeks tests with the poppy seeds and the tests I did last week, how much difference there can be in using a  bigger diameter container and straight vertical sides in how much the poppy seeds moved.  When I use the poppy seed test for future doughs, I will use smaller size containers of the same size to get more consistent results. I believe this is a great way of seeing how much the dough ferments and your tests have also helped me understand this more.

As always, you have me curious about what kind of Lehmann dough you are making now.  I guess I will have to wait until you post.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

As always, you have me curious about what kind of Lehmann dough you are making now.  I guess I will have to wait until you post.

Norma,

This time, I just made the two dough balls to test out the poppy seed method with bowls of two different sizes. The Lehmann dough formulation was just the basic one for a 61% hydration dough using King Arthur bread flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to approximate the protein content of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. I used one of the two dough balls to make a pizza that was baked using two pizza stones. That was also a test, but one that needs modification to be useful to me, so I have nothing to post on just yet. I reshaped and froze the other dough ball for future use.

Peter