Author Topic: the lifespan of a culture / old dough  (Read 7189 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: My 2
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2009, 08:16:53 PM »
I think the viability of using the old-dough method using commercial baker's yeast is very dependent on how often it is used. The fight is always going to be against the various lactobacilli that feed on the byproducts of any yeasts. If a baker is running three shifts a day and making one batch of dough each shift, then there's so much new flour being added that the bacteria won't have much of a chance to establish much of a population as measured in the ratio of quantity of bacilli per volume of dough. The yeast will grow a huge population and continue to reproduce with all that new food being introduced.

I suspect the old-dough method would work for quite a while even if there was only one batch of dough being made each day -- especially if the saved dough was refrigerated. But to save your old dough for much longer will encourage the bacteria to establish themselves. When that happens, the bacteria produce acids and other byproducts which will effect flavor and eventually kill the Saccharomyces cerevisiae commercial yeast when the Ph of the dough falls too much.

As for sourdough -- it can go indefinitely. Check out this video of the baker from the Boudin Bakery in San Francisco giving away some of their secrets. Their dough is 160 years old. They refresh their "mother dough" (starter) every day. they feed it in a ratio that increases the volume 4 times, by weight.  They don't let it sit in the refrigerator for a week. Most of us don't have that luxury, but I like my dough sour so I keep my starter at room temperature and refresh it every day.




Very informative. I guess the safest thing to do if I want to keep using the old dough method is to start with new old dough every now and then since my old dough won't be just pure starter culture.


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23450
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 09:00:26 PM »
pattyfermenty,

It is not entirely clear to me what your objective is. Are you debating between using either the old dough method or the sourdough method and, if so, is your interest for a home application or a commercial application? And is your interest in relation to pizza dough or bread dough, or possibly both?

As you can see from Didier Rosada's article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm, specifically, the section entitled "Pre-fermented dough", the old dough method seems to be clearly for a high volume commercial application. I have made pizza dough using both old dough methods, strictly in a home setting and for experimental purposes, but I do not think that such methods lend themselves well to a home setting involving a small number of pizzas. As between the old dough method and the sourdough method, pizzanapoletana (Marco), an expert on naturally-leavened starters/preferments used to make Neapolitan pizza doughs, indicated a preference for the sourdough method, as he noted in Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679.html#msg8679

Peter

Offline s00da

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 468
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2009, 04:32:42 AM »
Patterfermenty, the other day I posted this on another thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9791.msg85066.html#msg85066

Mother culture --> pre-ferment --> dough

Mother culture: The starter you maintain at a specific hydration using a specific procedure in a suitable environment. Basically, it's the form of culture that you feel comfortable to start with. Thus, it is refreshed to a familiar activity state with no additives. From this culture it's then easy deviate to what you want to make.

Pre-ferment: Think of it as a modified form of the mother culture used to embark specific characteristics/flavors in the final product. Using the mother culture directly without modifying it is also a valid approach if it produces what you want at the end. Know pre-ferments are old-dough, poolish and biga.

Dough: You final product where the pre-ferment is incorporated with the final ingredients at the final hydration.


In the same way you can replace the phrase "Mother culture" with "commercial yeast" and it works the same. When you talk about old-dough and sourdough starter, you are basically comparing apples to oranges.

Saad
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 04:35:19 AM by s00da »

Offline Matthew

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2262
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2009, 06:38:23 AM »
pattyfermenty,

It is not entirely clear to me what your objective is. Are you debating between using either the old dough method or the sourdough method and, if so, is your interest for a home application or a commercial application? And is your interest in relation to pizza dough or bread dough, or possibly both?




I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is totally confused about this whole thread!  As Peter mentioned, how can we establish a direction if no one can figure out the objective??

Matt

Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2009, 09:41:26 AM »
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is totally confused about this whole thread!  As Peter mentioned, how can we establish a direction if no one can figure out the objective??

me too! i thought i was trying to answer a question for you! too funny. in any event, the question was what was behind the statement in Calvel's book that the old dough method cannot be used indefinitely and whether the lifespan of yeast (limited or not) had anything to do with that statement.

the tangent in this thread about sourdough starter activation times was/is irrelevant to that question, but someone asked.....

Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2009, 09:46:04 AM »
It is not entirely clear to me what your objective is. Are you debating between using either the old dough method or the sourdough method

my objective was to create a recipe that could be used in a commercial setting, possibly for decades, using the old dough method. i am not debating using either the old dough method or the sourdough method.

Offline s00da

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 468
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2009, 10:08:43 AM »
my objective was to create a recipe that could be used in a commercial setting, possibly for decades, using the old dough method. i am not debating using either the old dough method or the sourdough method.

well you can just make a new "old-dough" everyday or everyweek, month...whatever works better for you.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23450
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2009, 12:43:48 PM »
pattyfermenty,

I think the Rosada materials should get you going in the right direction if you haven't already settled on an approach. However, if your plan is to use a naturally fermented old dough, for possibly years, then you will perhaps have to follow a practice similar to what Anthony Mangieri used before he sold his business in NYC to Motorino. There was a fair amount of discussion and speculation on what Anthony did, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.0.html. If what you have in mind is a commercially leavened old dough, or pre-fermented dough, then the traditional methods and limitations will apply, as previously discussed.

Peter


Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2009, 02:29:57 PM »
pattyfermenty,

I think the Rosada materials should get you going in the right direction if you haven't already settled on an approach. However, if your plan is to use a naturally fermented old dough, for possibly years, then you will perhaps have to follow a practice similar to what Anthony Mangieri used before he sold his business in NYC to Motorino. There was a fair amount of discussion and speculation on what Anthony did, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.0.html. If what you have in mind is a commercially leavened old dough, or pre-fermented dough, then the traditional methods and limitations will apply, as previously discussed.

Peter



Thank you for your help and information. Regarding the Rosada material, is there a book you recommend? I wanted to read part two of the material you referred to, but cannot find it.


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23450
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 03:24:49 PM »
Regarding the Rosada material, is there a book you recommend? I wanted to read part two of the material you referred to, but cannot find it.

pattyfermenty,

Rosada has been referenced in several books on bread making, but I don't believe that he has published a book himself, or at least I couldn't find anything at amazon.com

The second Rosada article on pre-ferments (part 2) can be found at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. I strongly suggest that you print it out while it is still available. The last time I tried to locate part 2, it was unavailable.

Peter

Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2009, 03:52:27 PM »
pattyfermenty,

Rosada has been referenced in several books on bread making, but I don't believe that he has published a book himself, or at least I couldn't find anything at amazon.com

The second Rosada article on pre-ferments (part 2) can be found at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. I strongly suggest that you print it out while it is still available. The last time I tried to locate part 2, it was unavailable.

Peter

Thanks a bunch for your time!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23450
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2009, 04:01:28 PM »
pattyfermenty,

Now that you have regurgitated everything, have you decided what you would like to do? 

Peter

Offline charbo

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 146
  • Location: Northern California
  • Wheat
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2009, 06:48:54 PM »
patty,

If you want more Rosada, there are at least three articles by him online in the San Francisco Baking Institute newsletters: Fall 2004, Winter 2007, and Summer 2007.  He also has an article online in the Sept 2004 issue of Modern Baking on whole grain bread.

Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2009, 11:59:06 AM »
pattyfermenty,

Now that you have regurgitated everything, have you decided what you would like to do? 

Peter

Peter,

I did come up with some very interesting information from a sourdough website blog and in fact it is true that more than a few people actually completely lost the flavor component of their culture after keeping it in the fridge for a long time and reviving it seldomly. You may recall that I mentioned that I was getting no flavor enhancement from the sourdough starter culture and in fact was actually having less flavor -- well, it turns out that I am not the only one who had this issue. Sure enough, taking my culture out and feeding it day and night for a few days gave me a totally different culture than I had been using, at least it smells that way (I haven't used it yet to make a pizza).  Sure, I could always revive the yeast in my culture in one simple feeding from out of the fridge, but not the flavor.

So, now with that in mind, I am going to make some pizzas using the reinvigerated culture that i have in order to decide whether a sourdough culture imparts flavors or textures that would justify the extra work over a commercial yeast preferment.

Offline Matthew

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2262
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2009, 12:15:36 PM »
Peter,

I did come up with some very interesting information from a sourdough website blog and in fact it is true that more than a few people actually completely lost the flavor component of their culture after keeping it in the fridge for a long time and reviving it seldomly. You may recall that I mentioned that I was getting no flavor enhancement from the sourdough starter culture and in fact was actually having less flavor -- well, it turns out that I am not the only one who had this issue. Sure enough, taking my culture out and feeding it day and night for a few days gave me a totally different culture than I had been using, at least it smells that way (I haven't used it yet to make a pizza).  Sure, I could always revive the yeast in my culture in one simple feeding from out of the fridge, but not the flavor.

So, now with that in mind, I am going to make some pizzas using the reinvigerated culture that i have in order to decide whether a sourdough culture imparts flavors or textures that would justify the extra work over a commercial yeast preferment.

Interesting....Looking forward to hearing about your results.  When you say day & night for a few days are you referring to a feeding in the morning & then another in the evening?  How many days is a few days?  How much culture did you start off with & how much did you feed it?  Did you discard any or just continue to feed the mass?

Matt

Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2009, 12:41:11 PM »
Interesting....Looking forward to hearing about your results.  When you say day & night for a few days are you referring to a feeding in the morning & then another in the evening?  How many days is a few days?  How much culture did you start off with & how much did you feed it?  Did you discard any or just continue to feed the mass?

Matt

Unfortunately I didn't go by a schedule. I have had the culture for years and am quite used to how it behaves, so I didn't go by a schedule. But here is what I did: I took out the entire batch (about 2 cups), fed it about 2 cups of flour and the same weight in water (i always keep a 100% culture). waited until it awoke (rising, some holes in top, but not receeding -- around 4 hours'ish), then tossed all but about one half cup and fed again and again. It doesn't matter how much I feed it because I am always paying attention to when it looks to be exhausted -- it could be an hour, 4 hours or 10 hours, depending on how much I feed it. When I go to sleep at night, I always make sure to feed it at least 4x its weight _in flour_, and that will carry it all night long. I did this for 3.5 - 4 days, and wow. I have often revived my culture for 1.5 to 2 days, but never 3.5-4. Like I said, haven't made pizza with it and now that it has been refrigerated overnight it still has that sweet smell, but now there is a very noticeable bite to it that I have never had, the kind of bite that almost burns your nose when you take the top off.

Offline pattyfermenty

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
Re: the lifespan of a culture / old dough
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2009, 09:22:59 PM »
Interesting....Looking forward to hearing about your results.  When you say day & night for a few days are you referring to a feeding in the morning & then another in the evening?  How many days is a few days?  How much culture did you start off with & how much did you feed it?  Did you discard any or just continue to feed the mass?

Matt
Well, the result for me was that the culture made both a positive difference in taste and texture and i decided that it was worth the extra trouble. The straight dough i have is very good, but it has just a hint of a bready/flat flavor -- the dough made from the very active culture/old dough did not have that hint of bready/flat flavor. I fixed my problem -- the culture has to be very active so that not only the yeast component is there, but also the bacteria.