Author Topic: pizzeria room temperature rising times  (Read 3188 times)

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Offline ralphy

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pizzeria room temperature rising times
« on: December 28, 2009, 10:44:41 AM »
i've always been puzzled by the superior pizzerias that don't use refrigeration (places like UPN, totonno's, pizzeria bianco (don't think he refrigerates), and others), particularly those that use a natural starter . It seems to me that if these places make their dough at a set time (let's say midnight after the shop closes) and starts selling pizzas at say 5pm, the pizzas sold at 5pm would be HUGELY different than those sold at say 11pm that have been proofing for an extra 6 hours. It seems the quality would be all over the place from hour to hour as the dough is constantly changing. Yet i've had great pizzas from these places both right after they open and immediately before they close and can hardly tell a difference. any thoughts?


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 11:35:28 AM »
No question that the character of the dough changes. So does the fire as it is fed, stoked, etc. If you are a "Like Water for Chocolate" kind of person, then the mood of the baker as the shift drags on also comes into play. A master pizza baker (not me!) makes small adjustments as he/she senses changing conditions. Having said that, my room-temp doughs have a pretty large proofing window.

Somewhere Chris Bianco is quoted as saying that of the few hundred pies that he bakes every night, only a few of them meet his standards of perfection.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 11:37:03 AM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline ralphy

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 12:16:47 PM »
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the response and thanks so much for all the useful information that you and your peers have shared on this site. I've really enjoyed reading and learning. What type of changes do you think these guys can make? I mean shouldn't a dough that has proofed an extra 6 hours at room temp TASTE really different and LOOK really different in the end product? You mentioned you have a large window for your proofing times for room temp fermentation. do you mind sharing your dough formulation once again with me? Thanks again.

Offline Pizza Rustica

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 04:08:24 PM »
Ralphy,

I recall reading in one of the threads on this site that pizzeria bianco uses a refrigerated drawer to keep their dough. I think there is some video of it as well. I would be interested to hear about the others in question as well.
Russ

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2009, 11:40:25 PM »
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the response and thanks so much for all the useful information that you and your peers have shared on this site. I've really enjoyed reading and learning. What type of changes do you think these guys can make? I mean shouldn't a dough that has proofed an extra 6 hours at room temp TASTE really different and LOOK really different in the end product? You mentioned you have a large window for your proofing times for room temp fermentation. do you mind sharing your dough formulation once again with me? Thanks again.


What is the basis for your conjecture that the differences would be huge? During the 5 hour proofing stage, the volume of my dough doesn't increase very much. I would guess the biggest window I have ever faced without resorting to refrigeration has been about 3 hours. No idea what the masters do, but when shaping an older dough, I will use more "pressing" and less "stretching". I'll bake the earlier doughs a little closer to the fire and rotate the later ones a little more often.  But in reality, every pie is different - a little thicker or thinner crust, a little more or less topping, the oven deck a little hotter or cooler, the fire/coals a little more or less intense. After a while,  I think it becomes instinctual.

Here is the formulation I have been using for a while:

100% Caputo Pizzeria flour
62% water
3% salt
6% (of total dough mass) Ischia starter.




Offline scpizza

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 09:55:26 AM »
I mean shouldn't a dough that has proofed an extra 6 hours at room temp TASTE really different and LOOK really different in the end product?

Hi Ralphy, smart question.  Yes, 6 hours of room temp proofing typically would make a difference.  I can tell the difference in my doughs a few hours apart.  IMO, a good commercial baker will develop a dough formulation and process that address this problem.  For example, an increased salt concentration will do wonders to keep dough more consistent over a 6 hour window.

Offline ralphy

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 10:30:20 AM »
Hi Everyone. Thanks for the responses. I'm only assuming a 6 hour difference in proofing time would reflect huge differences because I've experienced a wide range in flavor, appearance, and texture if I find I've let a dough go too far and overproof if i get caught up or there is some kind of distraction. I especially find this to be true in naturally leavened doughs. For instance, i've had doughs collapse from being over risen, or other times the longer proofing period have lead to an overly sour sourdough. And I've seen the differences in less than the 6 hour window.  Matthew, you mentioned that younger doughs you would stretch and bake closer to the fire and older doughs you would more press and rotate more often. That's really interesting. Can you explain why the difference in the treatment and what you've noticed when you treat them differently?
scpizza, thanks for the response as well. So you're saying that the salt will basically slow down the proofing process, perhaps preventing a dough from getting overrisen? Do you believe the salt can also help in preventing a naturally leavened dough that has gone too far from becoming overly sour? what do you think is the outside range of salt that is permissible without negatively affecting taste, etc.?
Thanks again to everyone.

Offline scpizza

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2009, 11:46:00 AM »
scpizza, thanks for the response as well. So you're saying that the salt will basically slow down the proofing process, perhaps preventing a dough from getting overrisen? Do you believe the salt can also help in preventing a naturally leavened dough that has gone too far from becoming overly sour? what do you think is the outside range of salt that is permissible without negatively affecting taste, etc.?

Yes, salt slows down the proofing process dramatically so is useful for preventing a dough from overrising.  Yes, salt also will help prevent a naturally leavened dough from becoming overly sour as salt dramatically inhibits bacterial activity, the main source of the sourness.

Note I mentioned salt merely as an example of one tool a commercial baker can employ to compensate for a large service window requirement.  It is by no means a cure-all to the challenge as there are many downsides to high salt use which progressively worsen is you increase salt concentration including adverse taste, texture, and handling.  Making good pizza is a complicated balancing act, finding sweet spots among counter-acting factors.

To determine an outside range of salt I recommend running a series of tests of different salt concentrations using your own formulation, ingredients, processes, and tastes, all of which influence how much salt is "too much" for your pizza.  I wouldn't spend much time testing very far above 3.5% salt (/flour).

For more info, see: Miller, R., & Hoseney, R. (2008). Role of Salt in Baking. Cereal Foods World, 53(1), 4-6
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 01:07:16 PM by scpizza »

Offline Pizza Rustica

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2009, 12:41:39 PM »
Bill,

Could you please clarify what "6% of total dough mass" means. Thanks.
Russ


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2009, 01:54:10 PM »
Bill,

Could you please clarify what "6% of total dough mass" means. Thanks.

Sure. If I want a final dough mass of 1000g, then 60g of that would be starter. One of the problems in calculating the starter amount as a percentage of the flour is that the starter also contains flour. And in determining the hydration level, the starter also contains water. The preferment dough calculator is a great tool for helping with these calculations.


Offline Pizza Rustica

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2009, 02:42:21 PM »
Bill,

Sorry I don't seem to be getting it. If for example I use (6 balls@370g) 5% of flour in the calculator (46% water) I end up with 68.1G preferment. But if I use 6% of total dough weight I end up with 133.2g of preferment?? I thought the general range of starter use is 3-5% of flour weight so the 133 seems to be quite high?

I am assuming final dough mass = water, flour, preferment.

Lastly, I'm having trouble determining when my starter is fully active. Any help?

Russ

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2009, 05:07:01 PM »
When I first started making the dough balls I wasn't really making the balls tight. I would just do the fold and turn method and place in the box. The first couple of weeks they were rising a lot and I didn't know why. Then I was reading this http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm and I was looking on youtube and I saw a video of Tony Gemignani saying it matters how tight you make the balls. Now when I make my dough balls I do the fold and turn then I will do what they are doing in the 5c picture. I will make a circle with my middle finger and my thumb with about 3/4 of the dough ball on the top half of the circle. Then with the rest of the dough that is on the bottom of my fingers I will stuff it into the center of ball with my other middle finger. This will make a tight dough ball. Now when my dough is rising in the refrigerator they don't get as big as they were before. When I take them out of the frig for about an 1hr-1.5hr at room temp they get a pretty good rise to them but not overly risen, and they will get to a point where they stop and don't really get any bigger. I will make about 10-12 balls per batch so when I am usually making all the pies it takes me about 3-4 hours to get them all done and the doughs sitting at room temp all stay relatively the same size. I just recently started making pizza so I still have a LOT to learn.

Offline andreguidon

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2009, 05:13:11 PM »
this video by pftaylor is perfect !

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2009, 05:22:20 PM »
That makes a nice ball shape but you can see at the end when he takes his hands away the ball comes down a little. I am not saying that's bad but not the tightness I am talking about. My dough balls are pretty tight not to tight where they wont rise but at the right point. When I place me ball down there is no "dis-forming" I guess you could say. It just stays in a perfect ball. After about 5 hours or so I would say they start to relax a little and come down but still tight. Tony was saying a good way to see if you have a well formed ball is after you make the ball place it down and tap your finger into it to make a little dent and if it springs back fast you have a well formed ball.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2009, 08:08:51 AM »

I thought the general range of starter use is 3-5% of flour weight so the 133 seems to be quite high?

Lastly, I'm having trouble determining when my starter is fully active. Any help?


I've heard that too, but the amount I use is what works best for me. Everything I do is based on hundreds of experiments over the past few years to get the crust texture and flavor that I prefer and I'm still tweaking with every batch.

Since most of us do not bake on a regular schedule, each time we feed the starter, it is going to take a different amount of time to be fully active. It may also take more than one feeding if it has been dormant for a while. The amount of water in the mix is also going to affect the visual cues. I use fairly thick starter so I can see the bubbles forming as well was the expansion through the clear container. If it isn't loaded with bubbles and hasn't about doubled within a few hours at 80F after feeding, I'll give it a second feeding in a larger container. I use the Ischia every week, so it never needs a second feeding.

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2009, 01:04:37 PM »
I know this has most likely been asked but do you make your Ischia and Camaldoli starter or do you buy it offline?

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2009, 01:30:53 PM »
I know this has most likely been asked but do you make your Ischia and Camaldoli starter or do you buy it offline?

I purchased the freeze-dried cultures from sourdo.com which I then reconstituted and activated. I now feed them regularly and list them as dependents on my 1040.



Offline Trogdor33

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2009, 01:46:55 PM »
I'm from the IRS. Please come with me sir.
For all you non-geeks who may be wondering what the name trogdor is all about, have a look here: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2009, 01:54:20 PM »
I'm from the IRS. Please come with me sir.

You'll arrest me only when you have pried my pizza peel from my cold, dead fingers.

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2009, 05:31:19 PM »
You'll arrest me only when you have pried my pizza peel from my cold, dead fingers.

I am going to need to confiscate that... as well as your oven  8)
For all you non-geeks who may be wondering what the name trogdor is all about, have a look here: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

Offline Pizza Rustica

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Re: pizzeria room temperature rising times
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2010, 07:31:43 PM »
Bill,

Thanks for the input. I have a batch going now and will see the results tomorrow.
Russ