Author Topic: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.  (Read 41621 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #220 on: January 01, 2011, 10:51:37 AM »
Norma - Thank you for the links and videos. I actually remember eating at this place in the Campo de Fiori, which was one of my favorite areas of Rome. And now that I saw the video, I also remember the crust not being particularly puffy in the middle - only slightly - and there being a definite crunch in the bite.

John

John,

I have been searching more about pizza al taglio since we all are in this journey to try and make a good pizza al taglio.

I wish I could have tasted pizza from Campo de Fior, like you did.  I am glad you did remember that the crust isnít really puffy in the middle and there was a definite crunch.  :) That will help a lot in understanding this kind of pizza. Since I watched the videos and saw the oven, dough, and how they make their pizzas, I now wonder whether to bake on a stone on in a metal pan.  I guess both ways might work out okay.  I would believe from what I looked at so far that at Pizzarium they bake in metal pans and at Campo de Fior they bake on the deck.

Thanks for remembering what pizza al taglio is like.  :)

Norma
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #221 on: January 01, 2011, 11:08:53 AM »
These are pictures how my dough looked last night and and about an hour ago.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #222 on: January 01, 2011, 11:40:11 AM »
Norma - thanks for compiling all those links.  I am too interested in making this dough and all that is helpful.  I've seen most of it here and there but it's nice to have it all in one place.  Looking forward to your results later. 

Chau

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #223 on: January 01, 2011, 05:08:00 PM »
I think I might have let this dough ferment for too long.  The one bubble on the dough popped on its own, so I decided to shape the skin and let the skin proof for an hour.  The skin was easy to open. There was a little rise in the skin while it was proofing, but not as much I would have thought. That is another reason why I think I let the dough ferment too long and also I didnít get the oven spring as my last pie. I had covered the skin with a linen cloth.

I dressed this pie with olive oil, grated zucchini, Kalamata olives, Italian herbs, Parmesan cheese, mozzarella, Feta, and tomato sauce.

The pie was really tasty, and had a nice crunch when eaten.  The bake time was about 10 minutes and I baked on the stone at a little over 500 degrees F.  The taste of the crust was good from the longer ferment time.

Pictures below

Happy New Year!  :)

Norma
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #224 on: January 01, 2011, 05:10:37 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #225 on: January 01, 2011, 05:20:33 PM »
I don't know why some of my side pictures of the crumb didn't turn out right, but I just took two more pictures of a side shot, to show how the crumb looked.

Another article about Forno Campo di Fiori and their pizza al taglio and the breads they make at their bakery.

http://www.wantedinrome.com/articles/complete_articles.php?id_art=943

Another blog about Forno Campo di Fiori.

http://girlshopsglobe.blogspot.com/2010/07/around-campo-forno.html

Norma

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #226 on: January 01, 2011, 05:24:57 PM »
I tried to make a pizza romana yesterday and had the same problem.   I had to take care of some errands and couldn't watch the dough carefully.  It overfermented and wasn't great.   Trying it again today. 

Chau

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #227 on: January 01, 2011, 05:32:29 PM »
I tried to make a pizza romana yesterday and had the same problem.   I had to take care of some errands and couldn't watch the dough carefully.  It overfermented and wasn't great.   Trying it again today. 

Chau

Chau,

Good to hear I wasn't the only one that let my dough overferment.   :-D  I was trying to go the longest time I could, and in the process let it go too long.   :(  I didn't have the same problems with my dough on Tuesday, so at least this told me about how the dough should look when it is overfermented.  It is all a learning process with dough. 

I will give this dough another shot on starting to make it Monday. 

Best of luck to you today!  :)

Norma
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #228 on: January 01, 2011, 06:01:52 PM »
Thanks for wishing me luck.   My dough yesterday had a strong sourdough smell to it.  After the bake, the crumb wasn't light even though it had a lot of holes in it and I was surprise to see the crumb was a bit tough despite a 3% oil.   The smells and textures remind me a lot of my fail bread experiments when using too high of a starter and letting it ferment too long.   I kind of a had feeling that was the direciton of the dough but was interested in watching it more to see if it would develop more surface bubbles.  From my understanding, this dough is suppose to develop a lot of surface bubbles, so I was sort of using that as a guide and let the dough go overboard.   From my limited experience making different doughs, this dough IMO is harder to make right than a lower hydration dough.  This dough seems to require even more of a delicate balancing act including the baking process.

The other mistake I made is that I proofed the dough up in the pan it was to bake.  I thought I was being smart and trying to figure out some loop holes about this dough (even on the first shot - lol)  but it back fired on me.   

I hope to have better luck tonight.  I'll post a shot or two if it's not disasterous.   
 :-D
Chau

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #229 on: January 01, 2011, 07:42:02 PM »
Thanks for wishing me luck.   My dough yesterday had a strong sourdough smell to it.  After the bake, the crumb wasn't light even though it had a lot of holes in it and I was surprise to see the crumb was a bit tough despite a 3% oil.   The smells and textures remind me a lot of my fail bread experiments when using too high of a starter and letting it ferment too long.   I kind of a had feeling that was the direciton of the dough but was interested in watching it more to see if it would develop more surface bubbles.  From my understanding, this dough is suppose to develop a lot of surface bubbles, so I was sort of using that as a guide and let the dough go overboard.   From my limited experience making different doughs, this dough IMO is harder to make right than a lower hydration dough.  This dough seems to require even more of a delicate balancing act including the baking process.

The other mistake I made is that I proofed the dough up in the pan it was to bake.  I thought I was being smart and trying to figure out some loop holes about this dough (even on the first shot - lol)  but it back fired on me.   

I hope to have better luck tonight.  I'll post a shot or two if it's not disasterous.   
 :-D
Chau

Chau,

My attempt with this dough today didnít have any sourdough smell to it.  I have seen doughs before that really have looked overfermented and they still worked okay to make a NY style pizza.  The even had coloration on the baked pizza  They were without starters though.  Steve (Ev) had brought a dough to market on Tuesday that was one week old and we left it sit all day at room temperature to see how it would bake. That dough did have huge bubbles on top of the dough. It baked fine and even had coloration in the crust and an airy rim.  It was a regular Lehmann dough.  I also believe this dough is a lot tricker, to have the right amount of time for fermentation and develop the nice and airy texture.  I try to study different doughs, but am having more problems with this dough than others.  They don't call the pizzerias or bakeries that make this kind of pizza some of the best in the world for no reason.  They do know what they are doing.

By all the pictures posted this dough is supposed to have a lot of bubbles in the dough, but I canít understand exactly when to know when it is ready to bake.  I had a lot more luck last Tuesday. 

I think others do let this dough proof after opening the skin.  I didnít do that Tuesday, but then my dough didnít look as overproofed as this dough today did.  I also believe the baking process is tricky. 

Great to hear you will post a shot or two, if your pie isnít too disastrous.  That is how we all learn.  I always post pictures even if my pies donít turn out the way I want them to.  At least then other people probably wonít make the same mistakes I did.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #230 on: January 01, 2011, 08:00:06 PM »
The oven spring and crumb actually look very good. I say this not just as a complement, but a matter of urgent practical importance. If you overfermented that dough, and the crumb still came out *that* open- imagine what it might have done at its peak. I'm thinking maybe an uncontrollable chaos of bubbles, some of which would have just pushed right through the toppings in some places if they were sparse and then proceeded to blacken (I've actually experienced this in one or two, fortunately small, areas in some recent pies). Wasn't the original recipe and fermentation procedure designed for a pie topped with potatoes (which I imagine would load down the pie quite a bit)?

JLP
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #231 on: January 01, 2011, 08:20:15 PM »
The oven spring and crumb actually look very good. I say this not just as a complement, but a matter of urgent practical importance. If you overfermented that dough, and the crumb still came out *that* open- imagine what it might have done at its peak. I'm thinking maybe an uncontrollable chaos of bubbles, some of which would have just pushed right through the toppings in some places if they were sparse and then proceeded to blacken (I've actually experienced this in one or two, fortunately small, areas in some recent pies). Wasn't the original recipe and fermentation procedure designed for a pie topped with potatoes (which I imagine would load down the pie quite a bit)?

JLP

Jose,

Thanks for saying the oven spring and crumb did look good.  This pie was nothing like I made this past Tuesday.  Although this pie did taste good, the texture of the crumb in terms of softness was a lot different.  I wonder if I soon will have to call the dough therapist to help me with this dough.  :-D This kind of pizza gives me more problems than others. 

I now can only wish I would have made the pie before I did.  The dough was very soft and opened very easily, just like my dough did this past Tuesday.  I couldnít notice any difference in the feel of the dough, except it wouldnít rise much, while being proofed or when it was in the oven.  I even used the same flour as my last attempt.

When looking at the videos the opened skins do look like they have many bubbles in the skin.  My dough did look like that last Tuesday, but only had a minimum today. 

I donít know if the original recipe and fermentation was for a potato pie or not.  I did add a lot of toppings to my pie today. 

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #232 on: January 01, 2011, 08:20:38 PM »
Great to hear you will post a shot or two, if your pie isnít too disastrous.  That is how we all learn.  I always post pictures even if my pies donít turn out the way I want them to.  At least then other people probably wonít make the same mistakes I did.  :-D

Norma

I'll post them up good or bad.  I usually do that anyway but didn't want to clog up your thread.   I would be curious to know about how long the dough can be proofed in the trays compare to overall fermentation time.   I allowed my dough yesterday to proof too long in an oiled tray.   As a result the wet dough stuck to the tray and all the bubbles were trapped at the bottom and not allowed to get into the middle of the crumb.  I knew immediately it was a mistake and not to be repeated.  The only reason I proofed in the tray was that I was fearful of mangling the soft dough stretching it out later, so I decided to spread it out little by little in the tray so that when it was done proofing it would be of perfect thickness and shape.  That worked out well, but again it was either the overfermentation or that particular method that just killed it.  From this mistake, I can see why they dust the dough with a lot of bench flour despite developing the gluten well even for a wet dough.

I'll dig up a few pictures from yeasterdays' botch pie just for you Norma.  ;D  This is my 1st pizza romana from yesterday.  I still ate about 1/2 of it.  It could have been much better.   SD lovers would have like it but I'm not a huge fan. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 08:22:42 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #233 on: January 01, 2011, 08:34:00 PM »
I'll post them up good or bad.  I usually do that anyway but didn't want to clog up your thread.   I would be curious to know about how long the dough can be proofed in the trays compare to overall fermentation time.   I allowed my dough yesterday to proof too long in an oiled tray.   As a result the wet dough stuck to the tray and all the bubbles were trapped at the bottom and not allowed to get into the middle of the crumb.  I knew immediately it was a mistake and not to be repeated.  The only reason I proofed in the tray was that I was fearful of mangling the soft dough stretching it out later, so I decided to spread it out little by little in the tray so that when it was done proofing it would be of perfect thickness and shape.  That worked out well, but again it was either the overfermentation or that particular method that just killed it.  From this mistake, I can see why they dust the dough with a lot of bench flour despite developing the gluten well even for a wet dough.

I'll dig up a few pictures from yeasterdays' botch pie just for you Norma.  ;D  This is my 1st pizza romana from yesterday.  I still ate about 1/2 of it.  It could have been much better.   SD lovers would have like it but I'm not a huge fan. 

Chau,

You wonít ever clog up my threads.  I am always interested if someone is trying to make the same kind of pizza that I am.  That way we all can learn.   :)

I really donít know how long, this dough is supposed to be proofed when put into a tray.  Maybe Matt or John can help us out with that.  I saw on the videos if they use trays, they donít put a lot of oil in the trays.  What kind of material is your baking tray?  I still believe I need to get a steel baking tray to be more successful.  I do have a round steel pan I might try for Tuesday.

Your pie looks very good, with a nice and airy crumb.  ;D  How did the crumb taste?  Do you think you learned anymore information about this kind of pie from your attempts?

Thanks for saying your would dig out a few pictures for me.   :)  I hope we all learn the correct way to make this type of pie.

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #234 on: January 01, 2011, 08:39:08 PM »
Norma,
It shouldn't proof in the tray at all & there should be very little oil in the pan. The bottom should not fry when making pizza romana. This thread seems to be getting a little mixed up. Sfincione & pizza romana are totally different.  In actuality, Sfincione is Sicilian pizza.


Matt
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 08:43:53 PM by Matthew »

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #235 on: January 01, 2011, 08:45:52 PM »
Norma,
It shouldn't proof in the tray at all & there should be very little oil in the pan. The bottom should not fry.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for helping that his kind of dough shouldn't be proofed in the tray at all.  :) At least that solves that problem.  I didn't think there should be much oil added to the pan.

Norma 
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #236 on: January 01, 2011, 08:55:28 PM »
Chau,

You wonít ever clog up my threads.  I am always interested if someone is trying to make the same kind of pizza that I am.  That way we all can learn.   :)

I really donít know how long, this dough is supposed to be proofed when put into a tray.  Maybe Matt or John can help us out with that.  I saw on the videos if they use trays, they donít put a lot of oil in the trays.  What kind of material is your baking tray?  I still believe I need to get a steel baking tray to be more successful.  I do have a round steel pan I might try for Tuesday.

Your pie looks very good, with a nice and airy crumb.  ;D  How did the crumb taste?  Do you think you learned anymore information about this kind of pie from your attempts?

Thanks for saying your would dig out a few pictures for me.   :)  I hope we all learn the correct way to make this type of pie.

Norma

Thanks Norma.  I think the pie looks okay.  Taste was ok too but I knew it was not the proper texture or look.  B/c I oiled the pan too much the dough did fry so the pizza tasted more like a lighter and airier version of a Pizza hut pan pizza which I'm sure is the farthest thing from a pizza romana.   I had heard that the tray could be lightly oiled and had suspected that it wasn't normally proofed in trays but wasn't sure.    I'm also knew that it can be baked on the deck or on a stone so I may try that next. 

Yes I did learn a lot from just my one attempt.  My initial impressions is that the dough is close to my normal HG NY-elite pizza dough.  I typically do a 74% HR with 2% oil and a HG flour.  The differences is that it's higher in hydration, higher in oil, kneaded longer, stretched thicker, and baked at a lower temp and longer.  I hope it won't take me too long to make a good version of this type of pizza.

Chau

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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #237 on: January 01, 2011, 09:06:35 PM »
Thanks Norma.  I think the pie looks okay.  Taste was ok too but I knew it was not the proper texture or look.  B/c I oiled the pan too much the dough did fry so the pizza tasted more like a lighter and airier version of a Pizza hut pan pizza which I'm sure is the farthest thing from a pizza romana.   I had heard that the tray could be lightly oiled and had suspected that it wasn't normally proofed in trays but wasn't sure.    I'm also knew that it can be baked on the deck or on a stone so I may try that next. 

Yes I did learn a lot from just my one attempt.  My initial impressions is that the dough is close to my normal HG NY-elite pizza dough.  I typically do a 74% HR with 2% oil and a HG flour.  The differences is that it's higher in hydration, higher in oil, kneaded longer, stretched thicker, and baked at a lower temp and longer.  I hope it won't take me too long to make a good version of this type of pizza.

Chau

Chau,

Thanks for explaining how your pizza tasted.  I really donít know what kind of flour either the bakery or pizzeria uses for their pies, but could imagine it is something like a Caputo or Caputo pizzeria flour.  I might give one of them a try in my next attempt.  I think for the pizza to be so light, airy and almost melt like butter in your mouth, the flour might have to be a lower protein flour, but I am not sure. 

I also hope it wonít take too long for you to make a good version of this kind of pizza.

Norma
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #238 on: January 01, 2011, 10:02:30 PM »
Gabriele Bonci Pizzarium

http://en.italiasquisita.net/bonci-emperor-of-the-roman-pizza

http://blog.oliviaemarino.it/tag/pizzarium/

In this article it tells about the kind of flour I guess Gabriele Bonci uses to make his pizza.  I wonder what kind of flour that is.

http://www.nessundove.net/ce-pizza-e-pizzarium/

And then the combination: they are creative and sophisticated and made with quality ingredients. Starting with the flour, on display on a high shelf of the room , which comes from a stone mill in the Langa Marine Cossano Belbo in the province of Cuneo.

In this article it says: After beginning his career as a chef, Gabriele Bonci has discovered the world of natural leavening. Today his is one of the best pizza in Rome, if you can translate what is said from Italian to English.

http://www.dissapore.com/mangiare-fuori/quando-tornerete-a-roma-il-meglio-della-citta-in-10-indi

Written by: Massimo Bernardi Wednesday, March 31, 2010 16:30   

Gabriele Bonci has become the wet dream of all yeast-dependent, this is the point. The years of the inevitable mess, followed Pizzarium , the store's most venerated in Rome, 1,500 types of pizza among which LSD (Licorice, Sausage and Dates, you understand?), a list of 40 yeast-mother unearthed anywhere in Italy and up to 200 years old, and that definition, "Michelangelo of pizza" that given by Vogue America, follows him everywhere now. The acclaimed appearances at The proof of the chef doing the rest. To say. E 'edgy enough that they inspire the resumption for a pizza that you see in these images, photographed by Genny fairytale, the foodblogger of the edible food .

http://www.spigoloso.com/sapori/boncitudine-estrema/

In this article it says what kind of flour and starter Gabriele Bonci uses.

What makes the pizza so great? First of all the dough. Evidently Bonci brought back some ancient yeast starter from Puglia years ago, and has been nuturing it ever since. He honed his pizza and bread making skills under panificio guro Franco Palermo. And he uses only the best flour: Mulino Marino flours (all different kinds, in endless variations). The dough is light, and airy, but a bit sour and chewy. Itís not heavy at all, and - due to itís very long rising - doesnít give you that heavy-tummy feeling that pizza a taglio so often does.

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2010/12/rome-pizza-update.html

So itís all a ferment the Pizzarium pizza, obtained from a dough standing from 48 to 72 hours in this article .Bakeryís heart beating is Gabriele Bonci, Chef with specialization in bread both pizzas and Alchemist that found the treasury of his Personal Legend in grain and yeast, transformed in bread and pizzas which give moments of gastronomic happiness.  .

http://www.roma-gourmet.net/inglese/?page_id=521

In this article it gives a recipe to try for Gabriele Bonciís Pizza Bianca


Ingredients
Strong White Flour, 500g
Water, 400g
Dried Yeast, 3.5g
Extra Virgin Olive Oil, 2 tbs
Salt, 10g
Some Semolina Flour

http://broxholmroad.blogspot.com/2010/06/pizza-bianca-roman-style-gabriele.html

I could go on finding these articles, but thought I would just post these if anyone is interested in studying about Gabriele Bonci or his type of pizza.

I hope my computer did translate right for some of these articles.

Norma
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Re: Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.
« Reply #239 on: January 02, 2011, 09:21:00 AM »
The article I referenced before in my other post said that Gabriele Bonci used Maulino Marino flour in his bakery. The dough, first of all: the base is crispy while the inside, neither high nor low, it is so soft that seems to melt in your mouth. The secret seems to lie in the rising, natural sourdough. And then the combination: they are creative and sophisticated and made with quality ingredients. Starting with the flour, on display on a high shelf of the room , which comes from a stone mill in the Langa Marine Cossano Belbo in the province of Cuneo.

http://www.nessundove.net/ce-pizza-e-pizzarium/

In this article about a visit to Mulino Marino it says, The natural stone grounding process use only a single step. The whole grain including the germ and bran is grounded into whole wheat flour (la Macina), a very nourishing and fragrant flour. In subsequent steps of sieving, the bran is separated producing Setaccio and Buratto flour. The flour obtained is not a "rebuilt flour" (a flour obtained with a mix of white flour, bran and germ), it is a "fatty" flour impregnated with wheat germ oil.

http://pubsub.com/Visita-al-Mulino-Marino_Baking-Food-i10UbUAYxld,kZw6wsXje15E

(Does anyone know what a ďfattyĒ flour with impregnated with wheat germ oil is or what does wheat germ do when mixed into a flour?)

For their flours they use only the best grain, carefully selected prior to be purchased. The wheat flours, Type 00 - Type 0 - Type 1 Buratto - Type 2 Setaccio - Type Whole, are produced by the same mixture of grains of organic Italian grains (in bad years they buy also some organic Canadian grains) including Taylor, Bologna and other grains with good quality for baking. The blend of grains is made to obtain a product with constant characteristics: W=280 P/L=0.55 FallingNumber=300s with a range error of no more than 20%..  (Does anyone know flour can compare with these numbers?)

Fulvio has also my sourdough addiction and showed me his yeast, one fed on wheat and the other on farro and enkir, both ready for the preparation of bread and focaccia. Finally, a miller that bake bread!

Before leaving I bought a 5 kg bag of "Buratto" and Fulvio gifted me some Whole Enkir flour (taken by him just out of the mill). Enkir is a very ancient grain, one of the first grains domesticated, a small wild einkorn. His qualities are strength and high content of carotenoids.

This same article was also posted on The Fresh Loaf: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19263/visita-al-mulino-marino

JoeVaís comment at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19263/visita-al-mulino-marino#comment-131032 said
Maybe a "light whole wheat" or a first clear is an approximation of the extraction rate, but avoid high gluten flour (but JoeVa, was making bread) and a link to a short video where you can see buratto flour color and consistency http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/media/ContentItem-a63f3eee-a09c-4844-b7bb-c2dca60a0a5f.html?p=1

I canít get the videos to work on my computer, (because it said I would need too install microsoft ďSilverlightĒ and I am sure if that is safe for my computer) but if you click on La Pizza 1 in the lists at the left of videos on the same site, you can see Gabriele Bonci in some of those videos. 

If anyone gets any ideas about what kind of flour to try for pizza in teglia from this post let me know.

Pictures taken from the other article I referenced at Gabriele Bonciís bakery.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 09:29:15 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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