Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.

[Matthew]

Norma,
I think the best place to start is with an unbleached organic soft wheat flour.

[norma427]

Norma,
I think the best place to start is with an unbleached organic soft wheat flour.

Matt,

Thanks for posting that you think the best place to start is using an unbleached organic soft wheat flour.  I now have to think what kind of flour that I have access to or have at home.

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

I can’t get the videos to work on my computer, (because it said I would need too install microsoft “Silverlight” and I am sure if that is safe for my computer) 

Silverlight is a geniune Microsoft app and is trustworthy. In any case, the video is up on Youtube. I think you've already seen it (it's the one w/Gabriele Bonci from that Italian-language cooking show).

***

Re: pan-proofing: Generally, this is what people do when they want a light crumb with good oven spring but *don't* want an open crumb (for example, if they were making a tomato pizza). I agree that it ought to be avoided for Pizza Romana.

JLP

[norma427]

Silverlight is a geniune Microsoft app and is trustworthy. In any case, the video is up on Youtube. I think you've already seen it (it's the one w/Gabriele Bonci from that Italian-language cooking show).

***

Re: pan-proofing: Generally, this is what people do when they want a light crumb with good oven spring but *don't* want an open crumb (for example, if they were making a tomato pizza). I agree that it ought to be avoided for Pizza Romana.

JLP

Jose,

Thanks for telling me that Silverlight is a genuine Microsoft application and is trustworthy.  I am not up to technical stuff on computers.

I agree, I shouldn’t try to proof the dough for a Pizza Romana. I had thought maybe by proofing the bubbles in the finished dough would become larger. In my opinion there are too many variables in trying to make this kind of pizza. 

Norma

[norma427]

I started another attempt for this pizza on Sunday by mixing a milk kefir poolish.  I used 85% Caputo Pizzeria flour and 15% KASL.  I mixed the final dough around 6 pm last evening and left the dough bulk ferment until this afternoon.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

It's very hard to get the alveoles as consistent as that. Could you share how you went about handling and forming the dough? Was this one also baked at 565?

It also looks like my speculations about the possible effects of milk kefir on the crumb were way off base, and I repudiate them altogether.

JLP

[dellavecchia]

Norma - Not THAT is the crumb I am looking for in the Pizzarium thread. Excellent results. How was the texture?

John

[norma427]

It's very hard to get the alveoles as consistent as that. Could you share how you went about handling and forming the dough? Was this one also baked at 565?

It also looks like my speculations about the possible effects of milk kefir on the crumb were way off base, and I repudiate them altogether.

JLP

Jose,

This was a high hydration dough and I went about handling the dough something like preparing bread in the Tartine Bread book, with different stretch and folds at different times. I did two stretch and folds Monday evening and another two stretch and folds Tuesday morning. One before I went to market and one at market. I also did another experiment with the dough for the pizza I made yesterday just to see what would happen when mixing at high speeds in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I basically wanted to see if mixing at high speeds would destroy this dough.  I really didn’t want to destroy it, but wanted to see what would happen.  After the dough was mixed together I turned the mixer on my highest speed and watched how the dough was coming away from the sides of the mixer.  I hadn’t added any salt or oil then.  All of a sudden the dough became really liquid again. I then turned off the mixer and added the salt and finally the oil.  When the salt was added the mixer started picking up on the hook again.  Then I only mixed on speed 3 until all oil was incorporated, and even hand kneaded a little of the oil in.

From all the experiments I did with milk kefir before, I knew it could rise any dough, but milk kefir does rise dough slower than other starters or IDY.  I think, but don’t know, that is why this dough could be left out at room temperature so long.  I think one of my other starters could have also given about the same results.

I don’t know what would have happened with the alveoles, if I would have baked this dough on the deck of my oven.  It is always a guessing game, when doing anything with dough.  The pizza was baked at around 565 degrees F. in my steel deep dish pan. 

This is the formula I used.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma - Not THAT is the crumb I am looking for in the Pizzarium thread. Excellent results. How was the texture?

John

John,

Thanks for saying this pizza had excellent results.  The texture was light, but not as light as the pizza I had made at market the last time.  The last dough I had made at market had a higher oil percent.  That now makes me wonder if I need to go up in my oil to get a lighter texture.  I also don’t know since I baked this pizza in a steel pan, instead of on the deck, if that is what made the texture different or not.  This dough was so easy to open and I didn’t get the dough spread in the steel pan right.  It can be seen that my edges are thicker than the middle of the crust.  I am not sure what to try next, because I did introduce too many variables from the last pizza I made at market.  I have never tasted a pizza at Pizzarium, so I have no idea if this pizza was anywhere near theirs.  I would tend to think their pizza is lighter.

The crust did have a very good taste and I would guess that was from using a starter and long room temperature bulk ferment.

Norma

[Matthew]

Norma,
Beautiful crumb!  My next pizza in teglia will be a starter dough.  If you have it, add some semola (15-20%) & a bit of malt syrup to your next mix.

Matt

[norma427]

Norma,
Beautiful crumb!  My next pizza in teglia will be a starter dough.  If you have it, add some semola (15-20%) & a bit of malt syrup to your next mix.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for you kind words about the crumb.    Good to hear your next attempt will include a starter.  I only have that kind of semola on hand that I tried about a year ago and don’t have any malt syrup right now to try out.  I can understand both choices would be good to try out.  What are your opinions about the percent of oil to add?  That still has me wondering for my next attempt.

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

Re: lightness: Judging by the pics, those slices appear to be pushing the limit of just how light a pizza crumb can get, and I can think of no reason why Pizzarium's pies would be much lighter (if at all) or even could be. Norma, your most recent effort is nothing short of astonishing, and I hope you find the results to be reproducible. With respect to the latter point, I have one more question: how did you go about shaping the finished dough and fitting it to the pan?

JLP

[norma427]

Re: lightness: Judging by the pics, those slices appear to be pushing the limit of just how light a pizza crumb can get, and I can think of no reason why Pizzarium's pies would be much lighter (if at all) or even could be. Norma, your most recent effort is nothing short of astonishing, and I hope you find the results to be reproducible. With respect to the latter point, I have one more question: how did you go about shaping the finished dough and fitting it to the pan?

JLP

Jose,

Thanks for your kind words.

Judging by pictures isn’t always accurate.  Although my attempt last week at market, didn’t have the same crumb look, that pizza actually was lighter.  That is what makes me wonder if I need to go up in the oil percent.  In my opinion the starter also helped to get a more irregular crumb, but I could be wrong.  I still am deciding what to try next.  When I look at bread making techiniques with a longer ferment time and using a starter in combination with higher hydrations, there is usually an irregular crumb structure, but in bread making they don’t usually use the higher amounts of oil.  That is what has me stumped.

This dough was sticky in the beginning, as can be seen on the pictures, but with each stretch and fold, the dough became less sticky.  On the last stretch and fold at home, I did use flour on my home table to finally form the dough, but did give another stretch and fold at market with flour also.  I didn’t use a lot of flour, but enough to make sure the dough came together well.  With the final two stretch and folds, I could see more air pockets forming in the dough.  This dough was very soft when opening it.  I opened this dough just like I would any other pizza.  It almost fell open by itself.  That is why the dough in the pan wasn’t even.  I am not used to opening a dough that was this easy.

I will make another attempt next week, to see if I can reproduce some of the same results.  I am not to sure if I can or how I will go about it, at this time. I am going to use the milk kefir starter though and probably kept it at 20%.

Norma

[Matthew]

Matt,

Thanks for you kind words about the crumb.    Good to hear your next attempt will include a starter.  I only have that kind of semola on hand that I tried about a year ago and don’t have any malt syrup right now to try out.  I can understand both choices would be good to try out.  What are your opinions about the percent of oil to add?  That still has me wondering for my next attempt.

Norma

Hi Norma,
In my last exchange with Massimo from Bosco pizzeria he recommended using 25 grams for every liter of water which is about what I've been using.  He also confirmed that he does not use a starter & that his dough undergoes a minimum of 48 hours under cold refrigeration.  He also told me that the flour that he uses is the pizza in teglia mix from Molino sul Clitunno.

Matt

[norma427]

Hi Norma,
In my last exchange with Massimo from Bosco pizzeria he recommended using 25 grams for every liter of water which is about what I've been using.  He also confirmed that he does not use a starter & that his dough undergoes a minimum of 48 hours under cold refrigeration.  He also told me that the flour that he uses is the pizza in teglia mix from Molino sul Clitunno.

Matt

Matt,

I watched all the videos from Pizzeria Boscos and saw how sticky his fermenting dough looked and how all the fermenting bubbles were in his doughs.  I also watched how he handled his doughs.  I saw he bakes his pizza in teglia in some kind of metal pans.  I don’t know if they are steel or not. 

Since you have had exchanges from him and he told you his dough undergoes a minimum of 48 hours of cold refrigeration, I can understand how his pizza in teglia comes out with so many irregular holes in the crumb.

I have been trying to study about making a high hydration focaccia dough.  I know most places that I have been reading about say focaccia does add high amounts of oil.  In some of the articles it said to mix the oil upfront with some of the flour and mix until some gluten is formed and then add the flour later and give the dough stretch and folds to develop the gluten more. 

I wonder how Campo de Fior makes about the same kind of pizza in teglia and then they just bake on the deck.  I can see in the last two experiments I did at market that both methods might work.  I also wonder if Campo de Fior or Pizzarium does use a starter.  PizzeriaBosco, Campo de Fior, and Pizzarium pizza in teglia all look quite similiar.

If I have time I would like to try some of the methods I read about, and try to bake in my home oven.  I don’t know if I will have time before I attempt this kind of pizza at market again.

I wonder what kind of flour would be the closest to Molino sul Clitunno.

Thanks for your insight. 

Norma

[dellavecchia]

I wonder what kind of flour would be the closest to Molino sul Clitunno.

I looked on the website to see if I could find the characteristics of their pizza in teglia mix, but to no avail. They do, however, have a recipe posted using the mix which is quite similar to what Bosco is using.

John

[Matthew]

Matt,

I watched all the videos from Pizzeria Boscos and saw how sticky his fermenting dough looked and how all the fermenting bubbles were in his doughs.  I also watched how he handled his doughs.  I saw he bakes his pizza in teglia in some kind of metal pans.  I don’t know if they are steel or not. 

Since you have had exchanges from him and he told you his dough undergoes a minimum of 48 hours of cold refrigeration, I can understand how his pizza in teglia comes out with so many irregular holes in the crumb.

I have been trying to study about making a high hydration focaccia dough.  I know most places that I have been reading about say focaccia does add high amounts of oil.  In some of the articles it said to mix the oil upfront with some of the flour and mix until some gluten is formed and then add the flour later and give the dough stretch and folds to develop the gluten more. 

I wonder how Campo de Fior makes about the same kind of pizza in teglia and then they just bake on the deck.  I can see in the last two experiments I did at market that both methods might work.  I also wonder if Campo de Fior or Pizzarium does use a starter.  PizzeriaBosco, Campo de Fior, and Pizzarium pizza in teglia all look quite similar.

If I have time I would like to try some of the methods I read about, and try to bake in my home oven.  I don’t know if I will have time before I attempt this kind of pizza at market again.

I wonder what kind of flour would be the closest to Molino sul Clitunno.

Thanks for your insight. 

Norma

There are many variations on focaccia.  To my knowledge focaccia alla genovese uses the highest amount of oil.  The pizza at Campo de Fior is technically pizza stirata romana.  I am not sure of their process but it's traditionally an indirect dough using a biga.  This dough has similar characteristics as pizza romana in teglia & is interchangeable.  The fundamental difference is the way it's baked on a stone instead of in a pan.  
As far a starters go; Gabriele uses a mother dough given to him by a bakery in Italy that is said to date back to WW1.

Hope this helps,
Matt

[norma427]

There are many variations on focaccia.  To my knowledge focaccia alla genovese uses the highest amount of oil.  The pizza at Campo de Fior is technically pizza stirata romana.  I am not sure of their process but it's traditionally an indirect dough using a biga.  This dough has similar characteristics as pizza romana in teglia & is interchangeable.  The fundamental difference is the way it's baked on a stone instead of in a pan.  
As far a starters go; Gabriele uses a mother dough given to him by a bakery in Italy that is said to date back to WW1.

Hope this helps,
Matt

Matt,

Yes, your post was a help!  The way these three different pizzerias or bakeries go about making something similar is what gets me all mixed up. Since I never will be able to actually taste any of their pies, I will never be sure if I can make anything really like theirs.

I have read about other people tasting pizza at all three places and from what they describe, all three sound very similar.  I believe they are all high hydration doughs.  At least in my opinion, it looks like they are.

Thanks for your help.

Norma

[norma427]

I started another attempt this morning with starting to make a poolish with the milk kefir.  This milk kefir is over 4 weeks old.  I have kept it in the refrigerator for 4 weeks to see what would happen with it, and if it was still good.  I did taste some of the over 4 week old milk kefir and so far it hasn’t seemed to do anything bad to me.    The taste of the milk kefir doesn’t seem to change, no matter how long it is left in the refrigerator.  I still don’t understand milk kefir, but it is interesting to me.  The first picture is of milk kefir grains I drained and fed last evening.  The second picture is of the over 4 week old milk kefir, this morning. The last picture is of the milk kefir poolish for my next attempt at home, mixed with KASL.  I am going to try and use my 12" deep-dish pan and bake on the stone when the dough seems ready.  I kept all the percents the same as my last attempt, but decreased the oil a little. From my other attempt at market, when I used no oil and my last attempt at market using a lot more oil, I will see what happens to this formula when it is mixed and baked.  I will post my results whether good or bad and also post the formula after I have tried it.  I haven’t decided what flour or flours to use in this next attempt.

If anyone has any ideas what I am doing right or wrong, let me know. 

Norma