Help with first Sicilian attempt

[pizzamonster]

Hi all,

After a recent trip to Italy and introduction to real Sicilian pizza (senza formaggio!) I'm in love...I'm looking for a decent Sicilian dough recipe I can start out with.  Although I've been making my own basic pizza dough for awhile, right now I'm lacking a scale and was hoping for a recipe and set of directions I can use with measuring cups.  I've spent the past week reading everything I can here and my head is swimming with too much information!  I've tried to read and (re-read)^10 everything before posting this.

This is my equipment:

- King Arthur Bread Flour
- 18x12 aluminum pan, the shiny kind (unfortunately)
- Active dry yeast
- Kosher & "normal" fine grain table salt
- KitchenAid 4.5 qt mixer

Recipes I'm looking over:

- Jeff's recipe (<wwwpizamakingdotcom>/forum/index.php/topic,7426.0<dothtml>)

- Lehmann Sicilian Dough Recipe for abc's 18" x 12" Pan (<wwwpizamakingdotcom>/forum/index.php/topic,1073.20<dothtml>)
<wwwpizamakingdotcom>/forum/index.php/topic,1073.20<dothtml>

My questions/uncertainties:

- For Jeff's recipe  I don't know what to plug in for the hydration factor (75%??) using the pizza calculator tools.  Also for the poolish, he provides the percents but how do I relate the poolish quantity to the total quantity I would make?  Also Jeff uses IDY and I have ADY, is there a way to compensate?

- For the Lehmann, would I do a preferment/poolish?  The directions say follow the NY directions which just looks like an overnight refrigeration

- Do you ever pre-bake a Sicilian pizza dough before topping and doing final baking?

For my current dough recipe, I put the dough into a corn-meal laden pan, poke generously with a fork, pre-bake for 7-8 mins, light spread of olive oil after pre-bake, top with sauce, cheese, toppings and then bake for 8-14 mins.  From what I've read of the Sicilian dough recipes, one usually generously oils a pan, pushes the dough in and does the bake all at once @ 500+ deg F -- is this right?

I apologize for the very amateurish nature of these questions, the whole baker's percentage is all new stuff to me as are many of the techniques mentioned in the threads.

- pizza monster

P.S.

I can't post HTML links as a new member so I wrapped the stuff with <>, hopefully it's obvious what to do.  I'm not trying to subvert the rules, but I'm not posting links to outside sites.

[Matthew]

Hi all,

After a recent trip to Italy and introduction to real Sicilian pizza (senza formaggio!) I'm in love...I'm looking for a decent Sicilian dough recipe I can start out with.  Although I've been making my own basic pizza dough for awhile, right now I'm lacking a scale and was hoping for a recipe and set of directions I can use with measuring cups.  I've spent the past week reading everything I can here and my head is swimming with too much information!  I've tried to read and (re-read)^10 everything before posting this.

This is my equipment:

- King Arthur Bread Flour
- 18x12 aluminum pan, the shiny kind (unfortunately)
- Active dry yeast
- Kosher & "normal" fine grain table salt
- KitchenAid 4.5 qt mixer

Recipes I'm looking over:

- Jeff's recipe (<wwwpizamakingdotcom>/forum/index.php/topic,7426.0<dothtml>)

- Lehmann Sicilian Dough Recipe for abc's 18" x 12" Pan (<wwwpizamakingdotcom>/forum/index.php/topic,1073.20<dothtml>)
<wwwpizamakingdotcom>/forum/index.php/topic,1073.20<dothtml>

My questions/uncertainties:

- For Jeff's recipe  I don't know what to plug in for the hydration factor (75%??) using the pizza calculator tools.  Also for the poolish, he provides the percents but how do I relate the poolish quantity to the total quantity I would make?  Also Jeff uses IDY and I have ADY, is there a way to compensate?

- For the Lehmann, would I do a preferment/poolish?  The directions say follow the NY directions which just looks like an overnight refrigeration

- Do you ever pre-bake a Sicilian pizza dough before topping and doing final baking?

For my current dough recipe, I put the dough into a corn-meal laden pan, poke generously with a fork, pre-bake for 7-8 mins, light spread of olive oil after pre-bake, top with sauce, cheese, toppings and then bake for 8-14 mins.  From what I've read of the Sicilian dough recipes, one usually generously oils a pan, pushes the dough in and does the bake all at once @ 500+ deg F -- is this right?

I apologize for the very amateurish nature of these questions, the whole baker's percentage is all new stuff to me as are many of the techniques mentioned in the threads.

- pizza monster

P.S.

I can't post HTML links as a new member so I wrapped the stuff with <>, hopefully it's obvious what to do.  I'm not trying to subvert the rules, but I'm not posting links to outside sites.

Give this one a try, it's very good 40% semola di grano duro & Bread flour. I made up a formula for you based on your size pan.  There are websites that will give you coversions from weight to volume, but I strongly recommend that you purchase a scale.  It is very difficult to measure flour properly as alot of factors come into play with respect to its weight.  You probably noticed that in Italy no one really uses a scale & everything is done by eye.  They generally rely on the look & feel of the dough which is fine provided that you know exactly what that is.

The formula is as follows:

   Bakers %          
          
            
Flour    100%   469.4 (188g Semola, 282g Bread Flour)
Water    75%   352.1      
IDY   0.7%   3.3      
Salt   2.5%   11.7      
EVOO   5%   23.5      

Total   183.2%   860.0      


Poolish:   
Flour   352.1
Water   352.1
IDY   0.9
Total   705.0
   
Next Day:   
Flour   117.4
Water   0.0
IDY   2.4
Salt   11.7
EVOO   23.5
Total   155

Good Luck,
Matt

[pizzamonster]

Hi Matt,

Thanks so much for sizing the recipe.  I will try it tomorrow after I purchase some semolina flour.  I only have King Arthur Bread Flour on hand.

I tried my hand at the Lehmann recipe and with the 58% hydration, the dough came out really way too dry, there were a lot of "crumbles" of dough if that makes sense.  It reminds me of when I tried to make a white flour bread and didn't have enough water -- the dough didn't rise and was only good enough for crackers .

I can only guess not having a scale, I put too much flour into the bowl.

Comments welcome.

- pizza monster

[BrickStoneOven]

From what I have read Sicilian dough has to be high hydration like 70%+.

[jeff v]

PM,

Using the Lehman dough calculator found here- http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html I plugged the numbers in that recipe in for your size pan (18x12) and came up w/ this

Flour (100%): Water (75%): ADY (1%): Salt (2%): Oil (5%): Total (183%):

475.5 g  |  16.77 oz | 1.05 lbs 356.62 g  |  12.58 oz | 0.79 lbs 4.75 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp 9.51 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp 23.77 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.28 tsp | 1.76 tbsp 870.16 g | 30.69 oz | 1.92 lbs | TF = 0.1421

I have used this same formula without using a poolish, just leaving the dough in the fridge for 24-48 hrs and it worked well also. Other wise you could just make the poolish as described in the original thread. Hope this helps,

Jeff

[pizzamonster]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for point out the calculator, wish I saw it before I tried my first attempt!  The dough I made with 58% hydration was tasty and has a crispy side/bottom, but it did not rise the final time (in the pan).  The pizza was very flat and the top 1/3rd felt very soggy.  I could have used too much sauce or vegetables.  I cooked it at 500 degF.

I have a question on your adaption of Marco's recipe:

1.  Can you clarify how you reached your numbers for your poolish?  Marco's recipe has 750g flour, 750g water, 2g IDY ;  yours is 100% water, 75% flour, 30% IDY which seems very different than his numbers, especially the ratio of water/flour and amount of IDY!
2.  Dumb question #2, how "much" poolish do you use in combination with your basis recipe?

If I extrapolate based on Marco's recipe, you take 75% flour of your basis recipe in creation of the poolish, but your numbers again are very different so I don't want to do any guessing.

3.  What brand IDY do you prefer?  Could I just swing by with "rapid rise" or should I get a yeast that specifically calls out Instant?


- pizzamonster

[Matthew]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for point out the calculator, wish I saw it before I tried my first attempt!  The dough I made with 58% hydration was tasty and has a crispy side/bottom, but it did not rise the final time (in the pan).  The pizza was very flat and the top 1/3rd felt very soggy.  I could have used too much sauce or vegetables.  I cooked it at 500 degF.

I have a question on your adaption of Marco's recipe:

1.  Can you clarify how you reached your numbers for your poolish?  Marco's recipe has 750g flour, 750g water, 2g IDY ;  yours is 100% water, 75% flour, 30% IDY which seems very different than his numbers, especially the ratio of water/flour and amount of IDY!

You use all of the water along with the equivalent weight in flour & 27% of the total required yeast. 

2.  Dumb question #2, how "much" poolish do you use in combination with your basis recipe?

The amount of poolish is dependant on how much water is required.
If I extrapolate based on Marco's recipe, you take 75% flour of your basis recipe in creation of the poolish, but your numbers again are very different so I don't want to do any guessing.

3.  What brand IDY do you prefer?  Could I just swing by with "rapid rise" or should I get a yeast that specifically calls out Instant?

Shouldn't make a difference

- pizzamonster

[jeff v]

PM,

I'll add to what Mathew said in the order you asked. Do you own a scale? It will make things much easier.

1. Marco was referring to a different batch size than your 18x12 pan, so his %'s can be used as a guide to get the measurements you need. When I said 100% of the water, 75% flour and 30% yeast I was talking about taking those from your total amounts in the recipe. So, using the formula for your 18x12 pan I posted above that would be- all of the water, 12.5 oz of the flour (75% of total), and call it just under a half tsp of yeast (actually 30% is .38 tsp). Make sense?

2. As Mathew said it depends. The poolish is taken from the main ingredients but is always the same % of them. So if you plugged numbers into the calculator for 4 pizzas in your 18x12 pans you would obviously have more poolish, but it would be the same % of ingredients for one pizza. If that didn't make sense let me know.

3. I would use your ADY til it's gone, then next time buy IDY.

Hope this helps,

Jeff

Edit: Your first pizza was not exactly what you wanted-welcome to the club! Could have been the formula you used, or as you said too many toppings. Try again, and post some pics for crying out loud!  The people here will have you kicking all kinds of pizza a$$ in no time.

[Buffalo]

Quesion To ALL/ANYONE;
I notice that the TF for this Sicilian pizza is .14...while Lehmann's
New York pizza is .10...While I do understand my decimals; I am confused as to what the "finished" dough height is supposed to
be in comparison to the TF   Is there a rule of thumb?
Buffalo

[pizzamonster]

All,

Thanks to everyone for their contributions and explanations. I now understand the percentages for the poolish are from the TOTAL, my confusion is erased.

Jeff, when you did your "A Tale of Two Sicillians" did you use all-purpose ("white") flour or bread flour?  I tried your recipe (scaled for my pan) with King Arthur Bread Flour & Fleischman Rapid Rise Yeast ("IDY") and while the dough had a fantastic texture, after cooking the top half seemed undercooked and very flat.  The crust and bottom were perfect however, so either my proportions were wrong or I used the wrong ingredients.

Thanks,
pizzamonster

[jeff v]

All,

Thanks to everyone for their contributions and explanations. I now understand the percentages for the poolish are from the TOTAL, my confusion is erased.

Jeff, when you did your "A Tale of Two Sicillians" did you use all-purpose ("white") flour or bread flour?  I tried your recipe (scaled for my pan) with King Arthur Bread Flour & Fleischman Rapid Rise Yeast ("IDY") and while the dough had a fantastic texture, after cooking the top half seemed undercooked and very flat.  The crust and bottom were perfect however, so either my proportions were wrong or I used the wrong ingredients.

Thanks,
pizzamonster

Hi PM,

I was using "regular" flour not bread flour. I'm not sure that would have caused what you are describing though. Was the dough not cooked or the toppings or both? Maybe you like your pizza w/ more toppings than I do, and the top didn't get cooked. What rack did you cook on in the oven? Any other releavant info or pics would help. I'm sure myself or someone here can help you get where you want to be.

Jeff