starter and foccacia pics

[bakerboy]

Haven't posted for a long time.  Been busy at the bakery but things are going very well.  Thought I'd drop some pics of my stuff.  The pizza is made from a natural starter thats fed with 30% whole wheat flour and 70% high gluten.  The dough is wet, around 85% hydration.  We use this dough to make several kinds of pizza, the most popular being the tomato pie.  cheers.

[UnConundrum]

What do you do once you cut the dough?  Looks like it would be tough to put on a pan.

[bakerboy]

its not hard to get in the pan because we use a pizza cutter to cut the dough the size of a full sheet pan.  Only difference is, after the dough is proofed and ready for the oven, we invert the foccacia out of the pans onto a loader where the dough is dressed and baked directly on the stone.  i like the crust much better.  here's a pic of the herb foccacia...or "pizza" as the locals call it

[norma427]

bakerboy,
Thanks for sharing your foccacia and herbed foccacia pictures. I really like the nice airy crust. They look fantastic!
Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

Bakerboy,

Baking them on a stone is very innovative and no doubt makes them stand out from a marketing point of view. Good thinking.

Are there any specialized techniques for mixing and working with a dough that hydrated you'd be able to hip us to ?

-JLP

[Infoodel]

@bakerboy 85% hydration dough + baking on stone is reminiscent of a pizza bianca (ok pizza rosso!) - the sort you might find in Roma...
Good call with the whole wheat - I'm sure that must add some great flavour to the crust.
Looks lovely!
@Jose
There are several ways to approach a high hydration dough. One is periodic stretch and fold - which is not practical for large batches but for the home baker is definitely one to be considered. Another is to use a fairly intensive and lengthy mix for the final dough (as they do in Sullivan St. I believe). Using a biga preferment and/or double hydration mixing method are also things to consider.

Toby

[bakerboy]

jose:  we add our water, preferment and a bit of malt (non diastatic), mix in our flour (half high gluten, half all purpose) and rest for around 15min, throw on salt and begin mixing. after 2 or 3 min of mixing on low speed, we add olive oil.  when the oil completely mixed in, we then mix on high speed for 2 min, check and adjust hydration.  Its always different.  dry winter conditions, and humid summer conditions affect EVERYTHING.  i can give the recipe, which i don't have in front of me now, and i can't remember because i got so many and i'd rather give the correct one.

[Infoodel]

jose:  we add our water, preferment and a bit of malt (non diastatic), mix in our flour (half high gluten, half all purpose) and rest for around 15min, throw on salt and begin mixing. after 2 or 3 min of mixing on low speed, we add olive oil.  when the oil completely mixed in, we then mix on high speed for 2 min, check and adjust hydration.  Its always different.  dry winter conditions, and humid summer conditions affect EVERYTHING.  i can give the recipe, which i don't have in front of me now, and i can't remember because i got so many and i'd rather give the correct one.

Hope you don't mind my asking specifics - but what sort of preferment are you using with that? wet or stiff?  and what sort of proportions? I ask because I've tried making a 90+% dough with about 1:10 ratio of starter to flour in the past. It worked OK as far as dough strength, baking etc. was concerned and the final result was incredibly light and puffy (very open crumb) - but the crumb texture was sadly somewhat chewy/tough. I've since gone back to using IDY (which does't suffer the same textural problems) but would like to give the natural yeast/sourdough starter another try some time.
I wasn't sure about adding oil fearing it might intefere with the gluten but I can see your reply above that you are adding oil to the dough - so perhaps that's what I shall do next time and maybe lower the hydration slightly.
Thanks for all the details and any further you care to share.

Toby

[Jose L. Piedra]

Thanks Bakerboy and Infoodel for your comments.

I wasn't sure about adding oil fearing it might intefere with the gluten but I can see your reply above that you are adding oil to the dough - so perhaps that's what I shall do next time

I'm not pretending to be some kind of dough expert here, but to avoid toughness and chewiness in these types of pies you definitely have to use oil.

-JLP

[Infoodel]

Thanks Bakerboy and Infoodel for your comments.

I'm not pretending to be some kind of dough expert here, but to avoid toughness and chewiness in these types of pies you definitely have to use oil.

-JLP

It's the additional acid from the natural starter that toughens (especially on the long ferment that I was using) As a side note: it's the reason why making an all-sourdough baguette (no oil) results in quite a different bread to a classic french baguette.  I've found you can use an intensive mixing method for a 'fluffier' result but that will impact the openness of the crumb. So yes oil (or milk, or butter or whatever) is another option.

[bakerboy]

toby;  My preferment is equal parts flour and water.  i use 70% high gluten and 30% stone ground whole wheat.  i like this ratio because for several reasons.  first, its not too wet (like a "liqiud levain") and its not too dry (like a pate fermente or levain).  For me, it rises beautifully and will finally dip in the center when ready to be fed.  Its fed 3 times a day and this texture lets us know if its ready or not.  secondly, i can add it to other doughs without changing the recipe of whatever dough i'm adding it to.  It usually ends up a little on the wet side which is ok with me.  Lastly....it simple, anyone in the bakery can remember it.  These are soley my preferences and what works for me from trial and error after error!! lol

[Infoodel]

toby;  My preferment is equal parts flour and water.  i use 70% high gluten and 30% stone ground whole wheat.  i like this ratio because for several reasons.  first, its not too wet (like a "liqiud levain") and its not too dry (like a pate fermente or levain).  For me, it rises beautifully and will finally dip in the center when ready to be fed.  Its fed 3 times a day and this texture lets us know if its ready or not.  secondly, i can add it to other doughs without changing the recipe of whatever dough i'm adding it to.  It usually ends up a little on the wet side which is ok with me.  Lastly....it simple, anyone in the bakery can remember it.  These are soley my preferences and what works for me from trial and error after error!! lol

Ah I see. 30% whole wheat in the preferment. Thanks for that info!
Cheers
Toby

[norma427]

bakerboy,

I was done at your bakery today and purchased some of your famous tomato pie and other items.  All I can say is your products are delicious.  You have done a great job with your products.  I haven't tasted anything, anywhere that were as tasty as yours. 

Thanks for the great experience,

Norma