Author Topic: Rigenero  (Read 2988 times)

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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Rigenero
« on: January 04, 2010, 01:24:33 PM »
Here is some info on a mixing technique, known as "rigenero", that I came across on an Italian-language pizza site and which might prove helpful to those working with heavily-hydrated doughs for their Sicilian-type pies. Forum member Marco cryptically alludes to this technique in the Sicilian recipe he provided in reply #6 to the following thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.0.html. Here is the Italian-language text from the aforementioned page (http://pizza.wikidot.com/rigenero):

"Piccolo reimpasto, anche ripetuto più volte ad intervalli di poche decine i minuti su una massa non ancora lievitata, allo scopo di rinforzare la maglia glutinica senza stressarla o accorciarla e ridurre l'acqua libera. ( soprattutto in impasti molto idratati fino ad oltre il 90% )"

I can't speak Italian (those of you who can, don't hesitate to correct me), but it seems to be saying something to the effect of: "Brief re-mix, repeated several times at intervals of about 10 minutes on an unrisen dough mass, with the aim of reinforcing the gluten mesh without stressing or shortening it and to reduce the free water (above all in doughs heavily hydrated to the point of exceeding 90%"

Thoughts ?

-JLP
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Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 06:36:49 PM »
Hi Jose,
you have the right translation but this technique is used mostly for pizza romana in tray. This dough is so soft that the romans cut it with scissors when they sell it, but there is more to it than this tecnique to make that particular dough. Good luck!

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 10:43:56 PM »
Hi Jose,
you have the right translation but this technique is used mostly for pizza romana in tray. This dough is so soft that the romans cut it with scissors when they sell it, but there is more to it than this tecnique to make that particular dough. Good luck!


Just to clarify, when you say "pizza Romana" are you talking about the style mentioned in the first few posts of the following thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.0.html ? (I think the photos in the first post in that thread were taken at Pizzarium in Rome).

-JLP
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Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2010, 01:30:27 AM »
Yes, I tasted last year in Rome near the Trevi Fountain. The aromas were fantastic! I tried to send you a picture but the file was too big.

Offline Bob1

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 08:38:02 AM »
Ninapizza23,
I also check out the other site.  I would agree with your conclusion.  Marco said that he got the recipe from Gabriele, who I believe owns the Pizzarium.  I would assume that Pizza in teglia means "baked", which at the high hydrations would have to be in a pan.  I also assume that it is a common style in Rome.  Another interesting thing is some of the dough temps I see in the Italian threads.  I may be mistaken but it looks like the poolish for these doughs are to be done at 73 degrees finished temp.  I made a poolish last night based on Matt's pursuits of "Pizza in Teglia", so I will be trying this stop start method (Rigenero)today.   Here are a few pics of what I saw posted on the other site. 

 

Offline Matthew

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2010, 09:23:50 AM »
Ninapizza23,
I also check out the other site.  I would agree with your conclusion.  Marco said that he got the recipe from Gabriele, who I believe owns the Pizzarium.  I would assume that Pizza in teglia means "baked", which at the high hydrations would have to be in a pan.  I also assume that it is a common style in Rome.  Another interesting thing is some of the dough temps I see in the Italian threads.  I may be mistaken but it looks like the poolish for these doughs are to be done at 73 degrees finished temp.  I made a poolish last night based on Matt's pursuits of "Pizza in Teglia", so I will be trying this stop start method (Rigenero)today.   Here are a few pics of what I saw posted on the other site. 

 

Which site are you referring too?

Matt

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2010, 05:17:02 PM »
Bob1,
pizza in teglia means pizza baked in a tray. Gabriele makes his own natural yeast like mother dough to make this highly hydrated dough and he is the owner of pizzarium. I know the guy from the other site that made the pizza that you show on the second picture. Let me see if I can send you a pix of a a tipical pizzeria romana.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 02:32:28 PM by ninapizza23 »

Offline Bob1

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2010, 06:42:04 PM »
Ninapizza23,
Thanks for the pic.  I hope to get there someday.  The first pic on my post was posted by Maxy68. 


Thanks,

Bob1

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2010, 07:17:22 PM »
Bob1,
yep, that's the guy I was talking about Maxy68, he has a pizzeria in sardinia. Who made the other pizza?

Offline Bob1

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2010, 10:22:19 PM »
Ninapizza23,
The first pic was someone's Avatar that I saved.  I went back and found that it also belonged to Maxy68. Very impressive.

Thanks,

Bob1


Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 08:43:50 AM »
Bob1,
Thanks for the info, I know Massimo is really good at this, he prebakes with just sauce and then he adds mozzarella just before it comes out so it wont burn. Did you see the 2 videos about how they make it at Pizzarium?

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 10:54:24 PM »
What do you think?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 02:37:06 PM by ninapizza23 »

Offline Bob1

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 11:19:35 PM »
Ninapizza23,
I did not see the videos.  I searched UTube and found a few with Gabriele, but nothing showing the process.  I did see one with focaccia that showed them putting water on the dough first and then adding EVOO.  They then topped the pie with onions that were salted and tossed in EVOO.

Jose,  
I tried checking out the thread and my Italian is not so good.  It appeared to me that they were talking about using the stop start method for developing the gluten in a hydrated batter in order make it easier to work with.  I think this is similar to what Verasano was doing after his autolyse.  I found that if I develop the gluten in a very wet dough it is still sticky but it sticks to itself more than me.  I also think I read that the gluten needs to be very strong for Pizza in Teglia.  I have been reading about the Italian flours and the W rating.  I also think I am starting to understand something else about the strength of flours and technique.  Peter, if you are out there maybe you can answer this.  Should we be not only picking the strength of the flour by protein count but also using the gluten development as a bandwith between the flours?  I hope you understand the question.  It seems that if the gluten is 100% maximized in a medium strength flour it would give you better crumb than a stronger flour with less gluten development.  It seems that in order to understand this we should take three protein level flours and create three different pies with a strong gluten development.  Then repeat the process with less knead in order to get the feel.  I guess the only difference may be adding  more water and possibly more yeast to a flour like KASL.  Then I would also assume a mixed flour may have different characteristics than that of a standard flour with the same protein count as the averaged mix.  What do you think?

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Bob1

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2010, 11:23:25 PM »
Bob1,
did you see this video yet?
이태원 맛집 - 네모난 피자 '피자리움(PIZZA RIUM)'
What do you think?

Whoaa,  Where did you get those crazy letters?  Can you post the link for the videos?

Thanks

Bob1

Offline norma427

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 06:17:46 AM »
I think these are the two links ninapizza23 referred to in the thread I had started.  The first one shows better, how the dough is made.  I will first let ninapizza23 respond and see if they are the links.  They are great to watch, though.  I had a hard time finding them, but think these are the links. Although I can’t understand what he is saying, watch how aggressively he kneads the dough near the end of the first video.

Norma

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgjXuq1ztI&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgjXuq1ztI&amp;feature=related</a>


http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/-pizza-rium/3866298856
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2010, 09:00:46 AM »
Thanks Norma,
I did not understand that Nina's post was in Japanese letters or I would have searched it.  Yes Gabriele does knead the dough very fast to develop the gluten.  I also found it interesting how it stuck to his fingers at the beginning and then became easier to work with.  It appears that as the dough develops and you align the gluten by forming a ball.  The stretching over and balling then acts as a girdle to make it less tacky. 
 
Jose,
It appears that the word rigenero means to regenerate.  I would assume that it is a generic term for developing the gluten by letting it relax and then start again.  I forgot to mention that besides Varesano, I used Essen1's method.  Essen1 had used a method of incorporating, waiting, mixing, waiting, and then mixing again.  I tried that and found  by relaxing the dough and restarting it worked very well.  Hopefully someone else could comment on this thought.

Ninapizza23,
I really liked both videos,  I really hope to get there and try it someday.  You can really see that Gabriele has a passion.  From what I gather, he laid it all on the line to start the business, and it paid off.

Thanks,

Bob1
 
 

Offline norma427

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 09:10:05 AM »
Bob1,
I still am not sure if that is the video.  Wish I could understand Italian or Japanese.  I also found that very interesting how the dough is at first really sticky and then gets better.  I think ninapizza23 said that there are rest times.  See what she adds.
Gabriele does really have a passion!  That is wonderful to see and makes me more intrigued.
Your welcome,
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 11:07:45 AM »
I forgot to mention that besides Varesano, I used Essen1's method.  Essen1 had used a method of incorporating, waiting, mixing, waiting, and then mixing again.  I tried that and found  by relaxing the dough and restarting it worked very well.

Were you and/or Essen making a very highly-hydrated dough when you tried that technique ?
Scarsu d'ogghiu, e riccu di provolazzu ::)

Offline Bob1

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2010, 12:16:26 PM »
Jose,
No, they were not real hydrated.  I was between 58% to 64%, but it seemed to develop the gluten very well and gave the ball a nice finish.  It seemed that when it relaxed and then was hit again it got good results.  I believe I was using KABF at the time.  If you try the Verasano method of an autolyse and then develop the gluten, in the first stage of "Pizza in Teglia", I would imagine that it would have the same effect.  I do not know how that would effect the 10 hour ferment.  Is it possible that when a pan pie is made there should be certain flours worked first phase and the other worked second phase?  We will have to try different methods and see what happens. 
I was using a 50/50 preferment the other week that was about three or four days old.  I used KASL and made 77% hydrated bread.  I started the room temp preferment and added 50/50 to feed it each day, and increased the size.  By the time I used the preferment I had to cut it with a knife.  .  I also tried to over knead the dough in the wet stage as I brought it together. I then found the 77% dough was surprisingly easy to work with.  I also used part of the bread dough to make a tomato pie.  The crumb had a very bubbly structure, and was very light. Oh yes, I did add yeast to the final dough.  It was a book recipe. 

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    942.98 g  |  33.26 oz | 2.08 lbs
Water (78%):    735.52 g  |  25.94 oz | 1.62 lbs
Salt (2%):    18.86 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.93 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
IDY (.28%):    2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Total (180.28%):   1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:    340 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs
Water:    340 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs
Total:    680 g | 23.99 oz | 1.5 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    602.98 g | 21.27 oz | 1.33 lbs
Water:    395.52 g | 13.95 oz | 0.87 lbs
Salt:    18.86 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.93 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
IDY:    2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Preferment:    680 g | 23.99 oz | 1.5 lbs
Total:    1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs  | TF = N/A




Thanks,

Bob1

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Rigenero
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2010, 09:35:35 PM »
Norma 427,                                                                                                                               yes those are the videos. Notice on the second video how hydrated  the dough is, it looks like a balloon full of water. Rigenero is necessary to dry the dough a little bit.

I would like to say that the sicilian dough in a tray and the pizza romana in a tray are 2 completely different doughs and techniques and flour. In Italy, they have a special flour to make pizza romana even though some like to use manitoba or any high gluten flour. Recently, I bought a bag of KASL, I am a little disappointed, I tried a HG flour that I bought in Arizona and had better results with the sfincione.

It has been confirmed to me that in order to make pizza romana you need a spiral mixer with 2 speeds.
Let me know if I left anything unanswered.


 

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