Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 144894 times)

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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2010, 10:29:07 PM »
Total time for this was about 45 to 50 minutes. 

!!!

And to think when I posted above about "mixing more aggressively",  I was thinking in terms of *20* minutes (and wondering whether that would be too much)...

I guess one lesson to take away from all this is that making this style at home requires a willingness to adopt some pretty radical, out-of-the-box methodologies- at this point, I might as well go back and re-title this thread "Adventures in Extreme Pizzamaking" or something...

In any case, there's no arguing with results, and your pics show beyond any doubt that you've gotten some.

-JLP 
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2010, 05:42:46 AM »
Jose,
In retrospect on this last pie it was big at 16x16 and tasked my skills putting it in an 18x18 oven.  I think I will cut the size down next time.  I really liked what the change of 6% KASL for the preferment.

I hope I don't take things too far off thread sometimes.  Technically we should be copying what we see produced at the Pizzarium, but I feel It's all good knowledge.  I never worked with a dough this wet before and I learned a lot.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2010, 01:14:47 PM »

I hope I don't take things too far off thread sometimes.  Technically we should be copying what we see produced at the Pizzarium, but I feel It's all good knowledge. 

I think the things you've posted recently are about as on-topic as they could possibly be, seeing as how a necessary condition of copying Pizzarium is figuring out how to make a super-high hydration dough in a home environment without professional spiral mixers- something we now know can be done, notwithstanding a lot of conventional wisdom to the contrary. Exploding that myth has cleared the way for the rest of the work.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this thread and the sfincione thread are probably among the most avant-garde food threads on the entire Internet right now. Keep the insights and info coming everybody.

-JLP   
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2010, 05:24:20 PM »
Okay Jose, now let's play devil's advocate.  Here is a quote from fresh loaf.


"A certain amount of oxidation is actually a good thing for dough development.  When gluten molecules are oxidized, sulfhydryl groups on certain amino acids are oxidized to produce disulfide bonds which contribute to the crosslinking of the gluten molecules.  This is what helps form the gluten matrix.  If the dough is over-oxidized, it starts to become problematic because now some of the compounds that contribute to the color, flavor and aroma of the bread are destroyed and the quality of the bread is diminished."


Where do we draw the line?


Thanks,

Bob1



Offline kiwipete

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2010, 05:53:14 PM »
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this thread and the sfincione thread are probably among the most avant-garde food threads on the entire Internet right now. 

Sorry for sounding a bit dim, but what is the "sfincione" thread? I have done a search on this forum, and came up with nothing..

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2010, 06:09:07 PM »
Sorry for sounding a bit dim, but what is the "sfincione" thread? I have done a search on this forum, and came up with nothing..

Peter

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.0.html

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2010, 09:46:21 PM »
Okay Jose, now let's play devil's advocate.  Here is a quote from fresh loaf.


"A certain amount of oxidation is actually a good thing for dough development.  When gluten molecules are oxidized, sulfhydryl groups on certain amino acids are oxidized to produce disulfide bonds which contribute to the crosslinking of the gluten molecules.  This is what helps form the gluten matrix.  If the dough is over-oxidized, it starts to become problematic because now some of the compounds that contribute to the color, flavor and aroma of the bread are destroyed and the quality of the bread is diminished."


Where do we draw the line?

Wouldn't over-oxidization fail to produce the open crumb in the first place, as one of its chief symptoms ?

-JLP
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2010, 10:21:22 PM »
Jose,
I don't really know.  I thought it takes away from texture, color, and taste.  I mention it because I see demonstration videos of people using dough that looks like it has been all ready developed well and then they use a couple of stretch and folds and says that develops the gluten.  I think people selling books sometime have to create a mystry about it.  Here is an interesting video.  There is no way that I did more than this guy did.  I think we also need to make a distinction between kneading air into the dough, forming gluten, aligning the gluten, fermenting, and timing the temp and yeast.  Mine still had good taste and good color. 



Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #108 on: January 22, 2010, 02:26:41 PM »
Hey Guys,
I used one of my spare balls today.  I did the preferment on the 19th at 10PM.  Mixed 2nd phase the 20th at 10 AM, then cooked the 1st pie the 20th at 3:40PM.  This spare ball was then cold fermented for 48 hours.  The flavor and results were fantastic.  The 6% KASL added more flavor and character to the crumb.  This pie had San Marzano, Thyme, Anise, Garlic, EVOO, Fresh Mozzarella, Pecorino Romano, and Roasted Peppers

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2010, 12:17:15 PM »
Just as an experiment I mixed up an 85% hydration dough ball today (100% Canadian AP, .7% IDY, 2% salt, 5.5% oil, no preferment). I expected to spend forever mixing it and then engage in an epic struggle forming it into something workable. Imagine my surprise when the dough- not batter- cleaned the bottom of the bowl within 12 minutes and easily formed a jelly-like, but perfectly mangeable, dough ball with no more bench flour than I'd ordinarily use.

In fact, it handled exactly like the 68% doughs I used to make for my round pies. There were no measurement errors (everything was doubled checked)- but I don't think that what I have before me is really an 85% hydration dough. I think that the southern Canadian climate might be just too screwy for these sorts of experiments at this time of year this particular year...[edit: maybe my flour is dessicated?]

Bob1: Those round pies look great (and the cornicone looks like it's on steroids...)

-JLP

 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 12:25:26 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2010, 05:36:23 PM »
Hi Jose,
Thanks for the compliment.  I did not mention it but it was cooked at 575.  I don't know what to make of your post.  If you went from all purpose to bread flour I would say that the higher gluten flour absorbed more water, but you did the opposite.  Humidity can allways be a factor but I would not think that significant.  Is it possible that you are comparing it to a batch that you may have added the oil to before the flour had a chance to absorb all the water?  Maybe we can figure this out.  I also assume you used a scale? Any pics of the dough?

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2010, 08:22:58 PM »
Bob1,

Nope, no pics, sorry. Right now I'm putting the whole thing down to some quality-control glitch or other on the flour manufacturer's end, likely involving moisture levels. Next week I'm going to try the same recipe again with a different brand, holding all the mixing techniques constant.

-JLP

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #112 on: February 15, 2010, 02:24:15 AM »
I found this threat a little late, and I want to try this but there seems to be a few different takes.

For just making a poolish with IDY and not using a starter, what flour and composition of it seems to work best? And, what american flour would get closest to what is needed?

Secondly, what type of baking sheet should be used for this? Cast Iron? Aluminum? A cookie sheet?

   Finally, can this be made even thinner? I know Sullivan Street Bakery makes something somewhat similar, I'm just not quite sure what the difference is.

 Oh, and PS. Where is that video of the cylinder technique? I suppose if I'm going to try this I'll need to watch it  :chef:

Edit: There seems to be the thicker pizza from pizzarium, but then there are these gorgeous thin slices from Antico Forno Roscioli as shown here http://www.seriouseats.com/2008/01/roman-perfection-to-go-rome-italy-forno-marco-roscioli.html What is the difference between preparing the two...or is the latter just spread out thinner?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 03:04:15 AM by hotsawce »

Offline malvanova

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #113 on: February 15, 2010, 01:26:57 PM »
 hi everyone, can someone tell me if ,durum wheat flour for indian atta bread, is the same as the durum flour you all are describing in this focaccia recipe ; thanks
 good looking crum on those pies,   Bob

 Phil

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #114 on: February 15, 2010, 03:19:14 PM »
Bob,  they are very similar,  just the atta flour has a small percentage of bran added back to it.  I believe it to be a very good substitute,  the grind is vey fine.  Just try to get the golden temple brand and not the whole wheat version,  you wont regret it,  especially when you take the price into account.  I paind 10 dollars for 25 pounds recently.  -marc

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #115 on: February 15, 2010, 07:42:43 PM »
I found this threat a little late, and I want to try this but there seems to be a few different takes.
  None of us actually had the Pizzarium pie so it really was not a fact based thread,  It was kind of a spinoff of a post from Marco.

For just making a poolish with IDY and not using a starter, what flour and composition of it seems to work best? And, what american flour would get closest to what is needed?

 No real answer on the best.  I was using Durum with a small percentage of high gluten with a tight kneed on the ferment.  The experiment was to use the Gluten to let the weak durum raise better in order to get an airy but soft crumb. I do recommend using a low protein flour for the poolish and nothing higher than bread flour for the rest While we were doing this Norma was doing something similar on the Sfcione thread and kneading it by hand with good results, so it all works.

Secondly, what type of baking sheet should be used for this? Cast Iron? Aluminum? A cookie sheet?

You should be fine with an aluminum pan, but if it is silver, you should season it (on the outside).  

   Finally, can this be made even thinner? I know Sullivan Street Bakery makes something somewhat similar, I'm just not quite sure what the difference is.

  You can certainly make it much thinner, it's all up to personal taste.  You just have to adjust your bake times.

Oh, and PS. Where is that video of the cylinder technique? I suppose if I'm going to try this I'll need to watch it  :chef: 

We saw that he was rolling the dough as if you were making Italian bread, but I am not even sure if it is in reference to the Roman pie or not. 




Edit: There seems to be the thicker pizza from pizzarium, but then there are these gorgeous thin slices from Antico Forno Roscioli as shown here http://www.seriouseats.com/2008/01/roman-perfection-to-go-rome-italy-forno-marco-roscioli.html What is the difference between preparing the two...or is the latter just spread out thinner?
  I would say that the same dough could be used for thin or thick pan baked pies.

Malvanova,  Thanks for the thumbs up.

Widespread, I have never tried atta before but I will look for it. 

Thanks,

Bob
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 07:44:42 PM by Bob1 »

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2010, 11:59:40 AM »
A question that's been dogging me for a while is just why exactly it is that Pizzarium et al. use such high levels of hydration in their doughs. I recently saw a video filmed at Pizzarium's Seoul outlet in which you could see the guy re-heating slices for the customers; could it be that the high hydration merely serves to ensure that the slices don't become hard and dessicated during re-heating, and is thus irrelevant to the guy at home who eats his pies straight out of the oven ?

Is there anybody who can walk me through the science concerning the impact of an extremely high (90%) hydration on the biochemical side of things (gluten, enzymes, and all that), and how that, in turn, affects the bake and the characteristics of the finished product ? Pete-zza ?

JLP
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2010, 03:39:14 PM »
Is there anybody who can walk me through the science concerning the impact of an extremely high (90%) hydration on the biochemical side of things (gluten, enzymes, and all that), and how that, in turn, affects the bake and the characteristics of the finished product ? Pete-zza ?

JLP,

Speaking in general terms, and all else being equal, a higher hydration dough will ferment faster than a lower hydration dough. The water permeates and migrates faster within the dough (enhanced mobility) and allows biochemical activity to occur faster, whether it is the effects of yeast, salt, sugar, enzymes, etc. (The same thing happens with high hydration preferments like poolish, which has a hydration of 100%.) A dough with high hydration will also be more extensible than a lower hydration dough but, unless steps are taken to more fully develop the gluten strength, such as turns and folds and the like, that increased extensibility may make the dough harder to handle and the dough may stick more readily to work surfaces and peels. To the extent that the dough is properly kneaded (by hand or machine), with a good gluten matrix that optimally retains the gases of fermentation, the finished crust should be more open and airy than a lower hydration dough and it should have a lot of large voids (alveoles), ideally of different sizes and shapes.

The way that the pizza is baked (e.g., on a pan or screen or on a pizza stone) will also influence the oven spring and the finished crust and crumb. Under the best of conditions, the heat from baking will cause the moisture in the dough to turn to steam and cause the rim of the crust to swell and expand. The extent of the expansion can also be impacted by the specific hydration value. If the hydration value is too high, it may be harder for the steam to "lift" the dough to produce a large rim. Also, some ovens and baking regimens will work better than others in achieving this result. It may appear counterintuitive, but a well hydrated dough is needed to get a crispy crust. The softness of the dough will allow it to open up more readily under the influence of heat and to act somewhat like an insulator, rather than passing through the dough and hitting the sauce and turning to steam. This allows for the dough to bake longer and develop a crispy crust, while at the same time having a soft interior. Tom Lehmann discusses some of these points at http://digital.pmq.com/pizzamagazine/200810/?folio=22.

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2010, 05:43:09 PM »
Jose,
Stay tuned.  I'll be making a few of these this weekend for my sons birthday party.

Matt

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2010, 10:33:33 PM »
Pete-zza: Many thanks for your reply- it had everything I needed.

Matt: Awesome- I look forward to the write-up and-or pics.

JLP
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