Pizzarium

[giulio.fabris]

Interesting stuff, http://www.scattidigusto.it/2012/03/11/foodblogger-bonci-smonta-i-miti-della-lievitazione-a-culinaria-2012/.
If anyone could do better translation than google would be great.

If others are interested as well, I can translate it.

[giulio.fabris]

Points one and two might be the same issue, which may be under-developed gluten / flour too weak / bit of both?

It seems like the next steps for me might be to 1) use a higher protein content flour (thinking 100% Hard Spring Wheat from the nearby Bob's Red Mill)

Hi there and welcome!

Have you tried mixing in some spelt flour? I'm thinking about 30% of the total amount you're using; it could help with the protein content.

[giulio.fabris]

Norma,
I completely agree with you. I think this one maybe tricky to formulate.  If I can get a hold of the Pan di Sempre from Williams Sonoma, it would a least offer me a baseline for comparison against an approximated blend.  We will see what becomes of it when I call. I am seeing the website now offers the brand online for delivery http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/mulino-marino-flour/?pkey=e|mulino|1|best|0|1|24||1&cm_src=PRODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules-_-

If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   

Pandisempre is a very nice mix, I've been using it lately.
Which kind of issues did you find with the Buratto Jimmy?
I've been using that quite often too and I'm quite happy with it; I'm posting a couple of pictures of the result with a 80% Buratto / 20% spelt mix.

[parallei]

giulio,

Welcome! That is a very handsome pie.

May I ask what the toppings are?  Tuna or chicken, leeks?  Whatever you've used, it sure looks tasty.

[giulio.fabris]

giulio,

Welcome! That is a very handsome pie.

May I ask what the toppings are?  Tuna or chicken, leeks?  Whatever you've used, it sure looks tasty.

Thank you!
The toppings are tuna, leeks, parsley and red garlic mate.

[JimmyG]

Guilio,
Nice pie! I have been wanting to do a fish pie for some time now. I may try a pie topped with swordfish, capers and lemon leaves in the future, if I can determine what type of cheese to use with it.

Which kind of issues did you find with the Buratto Jimmy?
I've been using that quite often too and I'm quite happy with it; I'm posting a couple of pictures of the result with a 80% Buratto / 20% spelt mix.

The problem I had with the flour was the taste. It is not that I found the flavor to be unpleasant, just too wheaty for pizza. I tried the flour in a sourdough loaf, however, and it was fantastic. However, there are other flour mixes that I prefer more than Buratto. My new favorite mix is a 80% all-purpose and 20% kumut flour mixture.

[dmcavanagh]

Guilio,
Nice pie! I have been wanting to do a fish pie for some time now. I may try a pie topped with swordfish, capers and lemon leaves in the future, if I can determine what type of cheese to use with it. The problem I had with the flour was the taste. It is not that I found the flavor to be unpleasant, just too wheaty for pizza. I tried the flour in a sourdough loaf, however, and it was fantastic. However, there are other flour mixes that I prefer more than Buratto. My new favorite mix is a 80% all-purpose and 20% kumut flour mixture.

Jimmyg

 I've tried some attempts at the Pizzarium pie and I agree with you, when you start to stray from the regular white flour we are so used to, the pizza just becomes something different, and not always in a good way. I feel that the real star of the Pizzarium pie is the many and copious toppings. Bonci has a larger than life personality which accounts as much for his fame as his pizza dough does. I'll give kamut a try if I can find it, but overall I'm not impressed with most of these ancient grains. Just a bit to heavy and earthy for my tastes.

[BeerdedOne]

Today I mixed up a new batch of pizza in teglia dough, using the advice from John and others.  This time I chose a 100% hard spring wheat flour with 13.5% protein content.  I also incorporated a 20 minute autolyse using 100% of my water and 70% of my flour.  Finally I mixed the dough for about 8 minutes on my KA, incorporating the remaining ingredients and adding the remaining flour a little at a time.

When I turned the dough ball out to work a couple of rigeneri, I immediately could tell the difference, as this flour had significantly more gluten development than my previous, hand-kneaded, batch using 11.5% AP flour.  The dough was significantly stiffer, although it softened up between rigeneri but would stiffen again after two or three folds.. my fear is that the gluten development with the mixer was too much to yield a soft crumb, and that the pizza will be chewy.  It's definitely going to bake up differently, hopefully for the better!

[dellavecchia]

Today I mixed up a new batch of pizza in teglia dough, using the advice from John and others.  This time I chose a 100% hard spring wheat flour with 13.5% protein content.  I also incorporated a 20 minute autolyse using 100% of my water and 70% of my flour.  Finally I mixed the dough for about 8 minutes on my KA, incorporating the remaining ingredients and adding the remaining flour a little at a time.

When I turned the dough ball out to work a couple of rigeneri, I immediately could tell the difference, as this flour had significantly more gluten development than my previous, hand-kneaded, batch using 11.5% AP flour.  The dough was significantly stiffer, although it softened up between rigeneri but would stiffen again after two or three folds.. my fear is that the gluten development with the mixer was too much to yield a soft crumb, and that the pizza will be chewy.  It's definitely going to bake up differently, hopefully for the better!

You can up the hydration if needed, as higher protein flour requires more water. But if you are already at or near 80% hydration, just knock down the mixing by a few minutes. Once you let it bulk for a long time it will soften substantially. Let us know how the crumb turns out.

John

[parallei]

Guilio,

and red garlic mate

How was the red garlic prepared? I'm not sure what you mean by a "mate".

Thanks,

Paul

[giulio.fabris]

Guilio,

How was the red garlic prepared? I'm not sure what you mean by a "mate".

Thanks,

Paul

Hi Paul,

It's just red garlic chopped and mixed in. Red garlic is a sweeter type of garlic which I tend to use a lot more than the white one.

[BeerdedOne]

I'm having success with my pizza in teglia thanks to all the wonderful information in this thread, and everyone's great advice and encouragement, so thank you all!  Today's bake was just a little bit better than my first attempt, mainly because I obtained a little more tooth to the crumb, but at the same time it actually came out lighter (little bit better rise).  

I did however have to contend with an overly active fermentation, so I baked the pizza a little earlier than planned and I got a tiny bit of larger than ideal bubbles in my dough ball.  I wound up bulk fermentation after  about 19 hrs., with a 3 hour room temp final rise.  This happened because I rehydrated my ADY for 10 minutes in warm water, whereas my last attempt I simply combined the ADY directly with the dry ingredients, which made the 24 hour cold ferment more manageable.  As a result, I was forced to pop a few bubbles when forming the pizza in the pan.  Probably cut back on the yeast a little bit for the next pie so I can make it through the entire 24 hrs. ferment with a good looking dough ball.  Looking forward to fixing this issue with a third attempt.  Anyone have suggestions on how much to reduce the ADY yeast if I want to rehydrate with warm water?  I'm using the standard .7% right now, which the expanded dough tool calculated at 4.3g for my 20x14 pan at TF 0.15.

100% KABF
80% water
0.7% ADY
2% salt
4% oil

[BeerdedOne]

So, after looking at the Bosco and other videos, the dough looks extremely fermented:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZxUfMk_FGI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZxUfMk_FGI</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0hMSbKy9_M" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0hMSbKy9_M</a>

It's hard to argue with the crumb that his pizzas show:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY7x2ffGJ1w&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY7x2ffGJ1w&amp;feature=related</a>

Or is his hugely open crumb more a result of oven spring from the relatively hotter ovens (one video shows about 575F for the bake).

Am I wrong in thinking that my 80% hydration teglia dough was over fermented after having doubled in size and with a few large bubbles forming on the surface of the bulk fermented dough?  Should I be judging the fermentation state of the dough differently than what, say,  a NY style dough @ 63% should look like coming out of the bulk fermentation stage?

[dellavecchia]

So, after looking at the Bosco and other videos, the dough looks extremely fermented:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZxUfMk_FGI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0hMSbKy9_M

It's hard to argue with the crumb that his pizzas show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY7x2ffGJ1w&feature=related

Or is his hugely open crumb more a result of oven spring from the relatively hotter ovens (one video shows about 575F for the bake).

Am I wrong in thinking that my 80% hydration teglia dough was over fermented after having doubled in size and with a few large bubbles forming on the surface of the bulk fermented dough?  Should I be judging the fermentation state of the dough differently than what, say,  a NY style dough @ 63% should look like coming out of the bulk fermentation stage?

Excellent looking pizza! I think you got a great crumb.

The Bosco approach is a bit different than what Bonci is doing now. Bonci is basically making bread, and Bosco is doing the more "traditional" high protein flour, highly mixed, and long, cold fermentation. He is upwards of 90% hydration. I don't think your dough was over fermented at all.

John

[BeerdedOne]

John, thanks for the compliment.  I am pretty happy with this pizza, but I can definitely do better!  I'd like to see the kind of open crumb that you achieved earlier:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125166.html#msg125166

Taste wise it was really quite good, and the toothiness was there, so I think I did a bit better with working my dough in the mixer, just need some more spring.. perhaps I should have let the bulk ferment continue for the full 24 hours.

[giulio.fabris]

This is a trial with 80% manitoba flour, 20% whole wheat flour and 80% hydration.

Although somewhat irregular (as you can seein the picture) it was good.

[BeerdedOne]

Great looking crumb, Giulio!  Was this dough also made with a 36 hr. cold bulk rise?

I've been getting more open crumb following up my bulk rise with about an hour at room temperature then 1-2 gentle folds and a quick counter shaping followed by another 2 hrs or so before stretching and baking.  What is your workflow like after removing the dough from the refrigerator?

[giulio.fabris]

Great looking crumb, Giulio!  Was this dough also made with a 36 hr. cold bulk rise?

I've been getting more open crumb following up my bulk rise with about an hour at room temperature then 1-2 gentle folds and a quick counter shaping followed by another 2 hrs or so before stretching and baking.  What is your workflow like after removing the dough from the refrigerator?

Thank you!
This one was made with a 48 hours rise, more or less.
Usually I remove the dough from the refrigerator and leave it alone in its container for about 1 hour.
Then I gently roll out the dough on a floured board. Finally I place it in the pan and leave it there for about 15-20 minutes before baking.

[giulio.fabris]

Yesterday I made pizza using the same recipe as last time (80% manitoba flour, 20% whole wheat flour and 80% hydration).
People wolfed them down so I couldn't get more pics. 
Anyway, I'm quite satisfied by the taste and lightness of this recipe; next time I want to try it with fresh yeast.

[BeerdedOne]

Bravo Giulio!  These are looking great!  Do you know what the protein content and W-value of your manitoba flour is?  What are your bake time / temps like? Really nice looking pies.