Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 128675 times)

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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2010, 10:38:16 PM »
Pete, as someone who cooks on a pan for about half the cook time and also uses a high hydration dough (75-80%), usually in the temperature range of 800 ambient, with a 700-750 floor, I notice that most of the spring takes place on the pan (i.e. in the first 40-50 seconds), not after I de-pan it to the floor.  I can also control the spring closely by my press-out of the dough, no matter what the temp is.


What factors are coming in to play in this situation?


Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2010, 10:50:09 PM »
Jose,
Stay tuned.  I'll be making a few of these this weekend for my sons birthday party.

Matt

Matt,

I will stay tuned.  I am also anxious to see your creations.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2010, 11:00:55 PM »
I can also control the spring closely by my press-out of the dough, no matter what the temp is.

It would be a tremendous public service if you could communicate how you do that.

JLP
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2010, 11:41:51 PM »
No problem.  I do not throw my dough, it is too wet.  It never leaves the surface of the bench other than when I fluff it (lift an edge) to get air under it.  I only press the dough out from the edges, leaving the center alone after the initial punch down.  For a puffy crust, I do not touch the outer 3/4", for thin crust I punch it out to the rim.  I work the dough cold, straight from the cold ferment. 

As an example of the timing, I put a pizza in the oven, pull a dough from the tupperware*, turn the pie in the oven, punch out the dough on the bench to about half the final size, de-pan the pizza in the oven, finish the dough on the bench, turn the pie in the oven, move the dough from the bench to a pan, turn the pie in the oven, sauce the dough, pull the pie in the oven to a cooling rack, finish the pie on the pan, put it in the oven, and move the racked pie to the cutting board. Total time about 4 minutes.


*The dough, even in an oiled tupperware, is still wet.  I amply flour the edges and push down all the way around to release the dough, then flip it upside down into my (floured) hand, then turn it back rightside up onto the (heavily floured) bench.  By the numbers, the dough is around 85% at first proofing, 76% after fermenting, and probably 70% when I press it into shape.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2010, 07:15:00 AM »
Matt,

I will stay tuned.  I am also anxious to see your creations.  :)

Norma


Matt: Awesome- I look forward to the write-up and-or pics.


It'll be my first time doing an 80% hydration dough in the spiral.  Maybe a good excuse to make another video.

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #125 on: December 17, 2010, 08:42:30 AM »
Pete, as someone who cooks on a pan for about half the cook time and also uses a high hydration dough (75-80%), usually in the temperature range of 800 ambient, with a 700-750 floor, I notice that most of the spring takes place on the pan (i.e. in the first 40-50 seconds), not after I de-pan it to the floor.  I can also control the spring closely by my press-out of the dough, no matter what the temp is.


What factors are coming in to play in this situation?


Tscarborough,

I don't work at the temperatures you mentioned, but I believe that it is the high temperatures in your case that is responsible for the results you have been getting. In my standard uinmodified electric home oven operating at normal temperatures of around 500-525 degrees F, if I were to use a pan or disk to bake a pizza, the oven spring would most likely to be less than what I would get using my preheated pizza stone because the pan or disk has to heat up first before the pizza can start to bake. I once tried to get past that problem by preheating my dark anodized disk to get it up to the oven temperature but the disk warped during the preheat, so that ended that experiment.

I believe that the reason why most of the rise in your case occurs before "decking" the pizza onto the oven floor is because the dough has reached the temperature where the yeast dies and the starches have pretty much gelatinized. You can see the sequence of the events and temperatures during baking at Reply 193 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101774/topicseen.html#msg101774. In my oven, it would take longer for the pizza crust to reach the various temperatures mentioned in Reply 193.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #126 on: December 17, 2010, 08:53:00 AM »
JLP,

I have made doughs, such as the Papa John's and Papa Gino's clone doughs, where I did not want a large, bulbous rim, so I pressed the edges of the skins down as much as I could to achieve that result. That worked for my standard unmodified electric home oven. However, at higher temperatures, such as the temperatures of a wood-fired oven, apparently that does not always work. Bill/SFNM made that point in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11981.msg111858.html#msg111858.

Peter

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #127 on: December 17, 2010, 09:25:40 AM »
Thanks, Pete, that makes perfect sense.

Re: Rim size at high heat.  The difference is not as pronounced as it is in the kitchen oven, but there is a definite difference.  I do not pound the dough, though, I press it out, which I assume removes more air than just beating it or rolling it.  I did these two last night, one puffy and one pressed out but the pics came out really badly:

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #128 on: December 18, 2010, 08:36:33 AM »
I mixed up a batch of dough this morning with the spiral mixer @ 77% hydration.  If you are interested, I posted a short video at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10884.new.html#new

Below is a picture of the finished dough for my pizza romana in teglia.  Next step is to refrigerate for 24hours in the vegetable compartment of the fridge.

Matt
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 08:50:41 AM by Matthew »

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #129 on: December 18, 2010, 09:10:53 AM »
Tscarborough & Pete-zza: Thanks for the tips.

Matt: Spiral mixer, that is so hardcore- am I right to suspect you're going to go pro soon?

-JLP
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #130 on: December 18, 2010, 09:15:23 AM »
Matt: Spiral mixer, that is so hardcore- am I right to suspect you're going to go pro soon?

-JLP

Still maintaining my amateur status for now. ;)

Matt

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #131 on: December 18, 2010, 11:17:46 AM »
Thanks, Pete, that makes perfect sense.

Re: Rim size at high heat.  The difference is not as pronounced as it is in the kitchen oven, but there is a definite difference.  I do not pound the dough, though, I press it out, which I assume removes more air than just beating it or rolling it.  I did these two last night, one puffy and one pressed out but the pics came out really badly:

Tscarborough, I try not to say that a pizza looks really really great unless I really really think so.  In this case the first picture you have provided is a really good looking pizza to my eye.  I recognize some really desireable crust characteristics on that pizza.  It just looks right to me.  It looks to have that proper pizza crust look to it.  Do you happen to have some crumb shots of this particular pie?  Anything memorable about it?  How was the taste and texture? or was it just another one of your pies.   Good job! 

Chau

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #132 on: December 18, 2010, 11:48:58 AM »
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #133 on: December 18, 2010, 12:54:34 PM »
Thank you, Sir.  I do not know how it tasted and no more pictures.  I was cooking for the Wife's book club meeting, i.e. drink wine and gossip group, and they devoured them as quick as I could pump them out.  It is my "normal" dough though, I just left more to rise than usual when I made the skin.

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #134 on: December 18, 2010, 01:11:21 PM »
If anyone is interested here is where I posted some videos from Pizzarium and pictures at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg86813.html#msg86813

and this is when I was trying to make a pizza like Pizzarium. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88104.html#msg88104

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2010, 08:19:24 PM »
Norma: Thanks for the links.

Everyone: Here is an effort at a Roman-type pie made with a fairly heavily-hydrated dough (around 75%). It was topped w/ crushed tomatoes, onions, 'shrooms, pickled halpenos, and green olives, and baked at 450 for 16 minutes. A very tasty piece. The crumb was outstanding in its openness, fully on a par with what I've seen from Pizzarium (unfortunately, the pics I took turned out to be unsalvageably overexposed). It was also very soft- to the point of being doughy- and I don't think it would have stood up to an amount of topping any heavier than what I used. I'm starting to think that something around 68-70% hydration is optimal for the home baker using bread flour.

JLP
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 08:24:24 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #136 on: December 19, 2010, 08:56:03 PM »
Norma: Thanks for the links.

Everyone: Here is an effort at a Roman-type pie made with a fairly heavily-hydrated dough (around 75%). It was topped w/ crushed tomatoes, onions, 'shrooms, pickled halpenos, and green olives, and baked at 450 for 16 minutes. A very tasty piece. The crumb was outstanding in its openness, fully on a par with what I've seen from Pizzarium (unfortunately, the pics I took turned out to be unsalvageably overexposed). It was also very soft- to the point of being doughy- and I don't think it would have stood up to an amount of topping any heavier than what I used. I'm starting to think that something around 68-70% hydration is optimal for the home baker using bread flour.

JLP

JLP,

Your pie looks tasty.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #137 on: December 19, 2010, 10:53:21 PM »
JLP,

Your pie looks tasty.  :)

Norma

The 8 year-aged pickled jalapenos my bro gave me helped a lot in the tastiness department :)

JLP
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #138 on: December 20, 2010, 06:15:14 AM »
Nice job Jose. 
Here are the one's that I made for my son's birthday yesterday using the dough previously posted.
Unfortunately I didn't get any crumb shots, but it was a beautiful open & airy crumb. 
The dough was extremely soft & extensible making it quite challenging to work with. 
The following video is a perfect example of how soft this dough really is.  I used the same method illustrated in the video to shape & transfer the dough to the pan. http://www.youtube.com/user/pizzeriabosco#p/u/9/24RY9Zc5Ldo

Matt





« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 06:17:01 AM by Matthew »

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #139 on: December 20, 2010, 07:22:46 AM »
Matt,

Your pies for your sonís birthday look awesome!  ;D You did a great job.  I also enjoyed watching the video you posted.  I wonder if you can tell me what kind of pans you used to bake those pies?

Norma
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