Pizzarium

[norma427]

I made another attempt at a Pizzarium-style tonight.  I had started the dough on Sunday and the things I changed were I used the poolish from my Lehmann dough and cake yeast in the final dough.  I also used 80% KASL and 20% Farina “00" for the flours.  I used the same TF as I did before.  This pie was dressed with crushed LA Valle San Marzano peeled tomatoes, mozzarella, caramelized onions, Italian seasonings, green and red peppers and grape tomatoes .

What I can’t understand about this attempt is although I used the same TF in the formula, why the crust got thicker after the bake than my last attempt.  I can post the formula I used. Does anyone know why the thickness would have been different? I also have other pictures if anyone is interested in seeing them. 

Pictures below

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

Magnificent. I'd be very interested to see the formula, bake time/temp, and some more pics.

JLP

[norma427]

Magnificent. I'd be very interested to see the formula, bake time/temp, and some more pics.

JLP

Jose,

Thanks for thinking this attempt looked good.  I used my home oven and the temperature was 500 degrees F.  I baked on my pizza stone in the steel pan. I didn’t proof this dough at all after I placed it into the steel pan. The bake time was about 14 minutes.  I first dressed the pie with only the tomato sauce and after it was baked I added the other dressings and put it back into the oven again for a few minutes so the mozzarella would melt.  The other dressings were already ready.  If you have any other questions, just ask.  I used a different blend of flours and also a different way to leaven this dough to see what would happen. 

I still can’t figure out why this crust did seem to be thicker.

Other pictures and formula.

Norma

[norma427]

continued other pictures

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[parallei]

Hey Norma.  Nice pies   And thanks for posting the various links.  I've been enjoying them.

[norma427]

Hey Norma.  Nice pies   And thanks for posting the various links.  I've been enjoying them.

parallei,

Thanks for saying the pie was nice.  I don't know, but think those links do really help in understand how to make a Pizzarium pie.  At least they helped me and I even used different flours this time and a different way to leaven the dough. 

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

I still can’t figure out why this crust did seem to be thicker.

I can't speak for leavening methods and flours that I've never tried- but could it be to some extent because you didn't proof it in the pan? No pan-proofing=bigger bubbles=greater thickness?

JLP

[dellavecchia]

Norma - I think you have a winning recipe! Did you do the same hand mix/fold/fermentation regimen?

John

[norma427]

I can't speak for leavening methods and flours that I've never tried- but could it be to some extent because you didn't proof it in the pan? No pan-proofing=bigger bubbles=greater thickness?

JLP

Jose,

From the one blog that was referenced before there is another post, that I don’t know if you saw or not.  The blogger siad Gabriele Bonci was like an artist-behind-the-pizza.  The blogger said she learned how to make and bake the dough.  This is part of that post. We learned to  mix, lay it out in the pan, and either leave it bianca - drizzled with a bit of oil and salt - or rosso, with just some pelati on top. In Bonci’s world, you do this first: prime the canvas, then start layering on the tastes only AFTER you’ve baked it.  Did you hear that? No piling on of cheeses, vegetables and meats until the pizza is completely cooked. Remember, this is Pizza al Taglio we are talking about, not small round, single serving sized pizzas. 

So the procedure is as follows.
Make dough.
Let rise.
Lay dough in pan.
Drizzle with oil, or top with a very thin layer of tomatoes.*
Bake.
Let cool slightly.
Top!

And the added extra-cool bonus of this method? You can bake the crusts ahead of time, and finish them off at the last minute for your pizza party. Makes you want to try this at home, right?

Isn’t that what you are looking for Jose, a crust that can be made ahead of time and then dressed later?

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/pizza-as-canvas-creating-toppings-with.html

This is where you can let your imagination run wild. But even Bonci has some rules. For instance, never more than three toppings. “That’s a balanced pizza,” he says, “Anything more would be too much.”

That post from the blogger, got me thinking there is no need for a proof like I did before.  The blogger just made that post last Tuesday, after I had made the other attempt at market.   

To me, this dough reminds me of a Tartine Bread dough.  They both act the same in my opinion. Does anyone else that has tried this kind of dough have the same opinions? The dough is highly hydrated and needs stretch and folds to become manageable and form a better gluten-structure.  If you watch the one video I referenced before, you can see how  Gabriele stretches out the dough, by pressing on the rim and forming more bubbles in the middle, by lightly pressing with his fingers on the dough.  In my opinion the dough has to be made right to get the bubbles in the finished crust.  Anyone else that is trying to make this kind of pizza have the same opinions as I do?  If not, could they please share with me what your opinions are in trying to make this dough.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma - I think you have a winning recipe! Did you do the same hand mix/fold/fermentation regimen?

John

John,

I was pleased with the recent results, but don’t think I am there yet.  Your latest Pizzarium pie looked a lot lighter than my recent attempt.   

I was playing around with the Tartine bread in the last day also and I found by using a lower protein flour, I got a much lighter crumb.  Although my crumb wasn’t exactly right on the Tartine Bread, I was amazed at how light the crumb was.  When I took a taste of a slice, it almost melted in my mouth.  This is a link to the bread I made last evening.  I didn’t wait to cut my Tartine bread until it was cool, so the real crumb didn’t show.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg125507.html#msg125507

Do you also think a lower protein flour might make this kind of pizza lighter in the crumb?  What kind of protein did your flour have in your mix?  I have another batch fermenting in the refrigerator, with a lower protein content to try later today.  I made that batch on Monday evening.  I want to see if a lower protein flour can make a difference in how light the crumb is.  I don’t know if I will be able to get any decent comparison, because I am going to try to make a smaller attempt in another kind of pan that isn’t steel.  Who knows how that attempt will go.  It is just an experiment.

At some point I do want to try this flour like is used at Pizzarium.  It is expensive, but I just want to see if the flour does make the difference in the crumb.  Do you know which one of these flours would be the kind Pizzarium uses?

http://www.formaggiokitchen.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=mulino+marino

I gave this recent dough many stretch and folds, the same way I made the Tartine bread dough.  I would have thought all the stretch and folds would have made a denser crust, but that wasn’t what happened, when I used a lower protein flour with the Tartine bread.  What thoughts do you have on this.  I also really gave the dough a long mix time in my Kitchen Aid mixer with using the method of slowly adding the flour and then giving the dough an autolyse before adding the salt and oil.  My total mix time was 30 minutes for this last attempt and my Tartine Bread attempt.  I don’t know, but so far, think either of these highly hydrated doughs are hard to ruin.  I didn’t count how many stretch and folds I gave this recent dough, but it was a lot. 

Do you mind sharing all what went into your recent Pizzarium master pieces?  Yours looked spot on.  You crumb looked lighter than mine.  What was your total mix time and did you also use stretch and folds and how many? Also what was your TF?  I would be interested in hearing how you went about the process of making your dough.  Anything you remember about your recent attempt would be helpful.

Norma

[dellavecchia]

Do you mind sharing all what went into your recent Pizzarium master pieces?

Norma - Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Truthfully, I am still perplexed on what the "correct" flour for this type of pizza should be. I had great results with a very weak flour supplemented with HG. You had stellar results with Durum, which is a strong flour, and similar results with KASL. Matthew does this in his sleep with Manitoba, and Jose uses super strong canadian flours. Gabrielle Bonci uses what I assume is high protein flour for his production at Pizzarium, but teaches a class with a medium protein flour and treats it like bread (minimal folds, and no mixer). BTW, the Marino flour he used in the class is Burrata, which is not listed on that website link you posted.

After obsessing about this for the last few weeks, buying the Suas book, reading everything Didier Rosada wrote on the internet, and trying out many different approaches, here is what I taking away with pizza in teglia:

1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.

I would love to hear other's thoughts on the flour topic.

Here is the formula for my latest effort:

Flour (100%):    1504.91 g  |  53.08 oz | 3.32 lbs (75% Organic Golden Haven [11.5% P], 25% Ultimate Performer [14% P] - both Giusto's)
Water (80%):    1203.92 g  |  42.47 oz | 2.65 lbs
CY (1%):       15.05 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | PLUS two tablespoons of starter for added acidity during ferment
Salt (2.5%):    37.62 g | 1.33 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
Oil (3%):       45.15 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.03 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   2806.65 g | 99 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = 0.15 (pan size 15" x 11")
Single Ball:      701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs

80% of water, flour, yeast, oil, mixed until combined, autolyse for 40 minutes. Salt and rest of water squeezed in. Six turns over 2 hours. 48 hours refrigerated. Balled and proofed for 4 hours before bake. Rosso for 2 and just olive oil on the other two, baked for 12 minutes (in my new pans!). Topped, baked for another 8-10 minutes.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Norma - as far as pizzarium dough reminding you of Tartine bread dough.  I would have to agree.  If we increase the hydration ratio and added oil to the Tartine bread dough, we have pizzarium dough.   If you compare the 2 crumb structures, they can be similar.  I see the pizzarium's crumb structure closer to something inbetween a  tartine crumb and a ciabatta crumb.   Something closer to a ciabatta crumb but not quite as aerated.  IMO, dough is dough.  There are wet doughs and dry doughs.  They are all made with the same foundational knowledge & ingredients and then take off into their own specialties.  They are made & handled uniquely and thus give unique finishing characteristics but the same foundation is there. 

As far as lower protein flours producing lighter crumbs, I absolutely agree.  It makes sense b/c there is relatively less protein to chew on.    Aside from that I have found the same in my kitchen.  I can make very light, lofty, airy crumbs with caputo 00 flour and I can do the same with HG bromated flours.  BUT if you place both products side by side, then the lower protein flour has the edge. 

Here is the one of the comparison's I did between 00 and HG flour.  Reply #1-#4
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.0.html
Here the HG bread was lighter!  WHAT?    WHY? I didn't maximize the caputo's potential in that bake.

Here is another caputo 00 and HG flour comparison where the caputo won out. 
Reply #21-#23
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html
This is where I got the hydration, kneading, fermentation, & bake all balanced out well.  Both were excellent but the lower protein flour pie was lighter.  But again, you can make a nearly identical pie in lightness using anyflour.

Here is the lightest loaf of bread I have made so far using mostly All Trumps HG bromated flour.  Same thread, reply #80
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.80.html

1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.

John, I absolutely agree with your statements here.   The masters, over time have learned how to use the ingredients and tools they have to get the most they can out of what they have.   By using what we have available to us, I believe that the pizzarium crumb can be made using almost any flour as long as one makes the necessary adjustments to the hydration, gluten development, fermentation, handling, and bake.  I wish I had more time to play around with this dough/crumb.  I have been far too busy with my own pizza and bread experiments though.  Looks like you all are having a lot of fun and making great progress.  I guess the trick is to be able to make a consistent product that you are happy with.

I told a friend on the phone last night that most pizza operators would be well satisfied to serve the kind of pizzas you guys and gals are making here.  We here on the forum are a more particular bunch than that.  Not satisfied with just mediocrity and the taste alone, but it must be visually satisfying as well.  Good luck gang.

Chau

[Matthew]

John,
You're right on buddy.  As far as flours go, alot of places likely use a Pizza in teglia mix which seems to be comprised of soft wheat type 0, semola di grano duro, sourdough & soya lecithin.

Matt

(Edit) I forgot to mention; The flour that I use is on average only 12.5% protein

[norma427]

Norma - Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Truthfully, I am still perplexed on what the "correct" flour for this type of pizza should be. I had great results with a very weak flour supplemented with HG. You had stellar results with Durum, which is a strong flour, and similar results with KASL. Matthew does this in his sleep with Manitoba, and Jose uses super strong canadian flours. Gabrielle Bonci uses what I assume is high protein flour for his production at Pizzarium, but teaches a class with a medium protein flour and treats it like bread (minimal folds, and no mixer). BTW, the Marino flour he used in the class is Burrata, which is not listed on that website link you posted.

After obsessing about this for the last few weeks, buying the Suas book, reading everything Didier Rosada wrote on the internet, and trying out many different approaches, here is what I taking away with pizza in teglia:

1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.

I would love to hear other's thoughts on the flour topic.

Here is the formula for my latest effort:

Flour (100%):    1504.91 g  |  53.08 oz | 3.32 lbs (75% Organic Golden Haven [11.5% P], 25% Ultimate Performer [14% P] - both Giusto's)
Water (80%):    1203.92 g  |  42.47 oz | 2.65 lbs
CY (1%):       15.05 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | PLUS two tablespoons of starter for added acidity during ferment
Salt (2.5%):    37.62 g | 1.33 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
Oil (3%):       45.15 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.03 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   2806.65 g | 99 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = 0.15 (pan size 15" x 11")
Single Ball:      701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs

80% of water, flour, yeast, oil, mixed until combined, autolyse for 40 minutes. Salt and rest of water squeezed in. Six turns over 2 hours. 48 hours refrigerated. Balled and proofed for 4 hours before bake. Rosso for 2 and just olive oil on the other two, baked for 12 minutes (in my new pans!). Topped, baked for another 8-10 minutes.

John

John,

Thank you also for your very detailed reply.  I am also perplexed at what kind of flours to try.  I really liked the results with Durum flour and Caputo, but think I still might get better results with more experiments.  This style of pizza is hard, in my opinion.  I can understand the classes Gabrielle Bonci teaches to make pizza in teglia, probably isn’t the real way he uses to make his pizza in teglia.  He is a bread baker, so he is much more advanced in understanding all this than I am.  I can understand how this kind of pizza and bread are related.  I have also read many teachings of Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel and am trying to put all their teachings in what I am trying to do.  I think I have to pull all up what I have learned so far in trying to make pizza in teglia You are more advance in pizza making and bread making than I am, so I value your opinions.   

I agree the Italian flour and any flours we might try, still aren’t going to be the same, but I believe there must be some way to get about the same results.  I also am still trying to tailor my workflow to suit other flours. 

Your addition of starter added for increase acidity is interesting.  Thanks for giving your formula.

I also would like to know other members opinions on what I might be doing wrong or even on flours. 

I hope to get some real blue steel pans to try someday.  Your blue steel pans really seem to work well.

Norma

[norma427]

Chau,

I appreciate your opinions on how this Pizzarium dough is like the Tartine Bread dough without the oil.  I could see from my last few experiments just how similar they are.  I also agree that the same foundation is used, (for bread and pizza)  in handling flour and workflow, there can be different results.  I am now leaning towards a lower protein flour to try.  I will see how my results turn out later today with a lower protein flour. 

I also appreciate all your experiments.  They have all helped me understand how different flours, hydration and other things happen with dough. 

Norma

[norma427]

Sorry, but I made a mistake in posting the formula I used in last nights bake at Reply 362 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125523.html#msg125523

That is the formula I am using for today’s attempt. The formula I used for last nights bake is at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387 and I used durum flour 80% and Farnia “00" flour 20% in the mix.  After I went over my notes later this morning I saw where I made the mistake.   I had too many experiments going at once and posted wrong on what I used.   

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

The idea of doing this with a lower-protein flour is intriguing. I have easy, supermarket access to an organic, unbleached, locally-milled French T55-grade flour, which is within the range of Italian Tipo 0 or American AP. This particular brand (Milanaise) is supposed to be of extremely high quality and has a cult following among the makers of artisanal baguettes across this continent. Baguettes, of course, aren't the same thing as pizza, but on the other hand this guy got a result with this flour that's highly suggestive for purposes of this thread: http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477. I may have to score a bag of this stuff soon.

JLP

[norma427]

The idea of doing this with a lower-protein flour is intriguing. I have easy, supermarket access to an organic, unbleached, locally-milled French T55-grade flour, which is within the range of Italian Tipo 0 or American AP. This particular brand (Milanaise) is supposed to be of extremely high quality and has a cult following among the makers of artisanal baguettes across this continent. Baguettes, of course, aren't the same thing as pizza, but on the other hand this guy got a result with this flour that's highly suggestive for purposes of this thread: http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477. I may have to score a bag of this stuff soon.

JLP

Jose,

I don’t know what kind of results you will get using Milanaise flour, but it might be an interesting experiment to try.  You might need to do longer mixing or more stretch and folds if you decide to use a high hydration dough, if using a lower protein flour.  I am not sure about this, but just thinking about the results I had recently.  The link you referenced does look like that man is getting great results from that flour. 

Best of luck if you decide to experiment with the new flour. 

Norma