Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 137894 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #380 on: February 02, 2011, 05:04:38 PM »
Quote
You might need to do longer mixing or more stretch and folds if you decide to use a high hydration dough, if using a lower protein flour.  I am not sure about this, but just thinking about the results I had recently.  The link you referenced does look like that man is getting great results from that flour. 

Best of luck if you decide to experiment with the new flour. 

Norma

Very true on the need for attention to gluten development with that flour, as Norma pointed out. Notice that in the directions for that recipe, he uses the slap and fold technique upwards of 200 times to develop the crumb you see in the baguettes. If you added a percentage of high gluten flour, you would obviously not need that much. He also only does a 24 hour ferment. If you do a 48 hour one, all the better for gluten. I am also eager to see your results using this flour.

John
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 06:09:23 PM by dellavecchia »


parallei

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #381 on: February 02, 2011, 05:26:31 PM »
I'm still thinking that the AP fllour can do O.K.   I keep thinking back to my attempts at no-knead pizza bianca.  All AP flour and it just sits for 8 or 9 ours with one or two flods at the end of that period.  Who knows, not me......

Offline doughboy55

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #382 on: February 02, 2011, 06:14:42 PM »
Very true on the need for attention to gluten development with that flour, as Norma pointed out. Notice that in the directions for that recipe, he uses the slap and fold technique upwards of 200 times to develop the crumb you see in the baguettes. If you added a percentage of high gluten flour, you would obviously not need that much. He also only does a 24 hour ferment. If you do a 48 hour one, all the better for gluten. I am also eager to see your results using this flour.

John
I currently am using KAAP flour and KA organic high gluten flour (14%P), should i follow the instructions you gave me earlier or should i adjust anything for this flour?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #383 on: February 02, 2011, 06:15:55 PM »
I currently am using KAAP flour and KA organic high gluten flour (14%P), should i follow the instructions you gave me earlier or should i adjust anything for this flour?

No need to adjust the directions I gave you.

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #384 on: February 02, 2011, 06:18:06 PM »
I'm still thinking that the AP fllour can do O.K.   I keep thinking back to my attempts at no-knead pizza bianca.  All AP flour and it just sits for 8 or 9 ours with one or two flods at the end of that period.  Who knows, not me......

AP works great - I did a similar same-day test earlier in the thread using 20% starter. Your bianca looks better though.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #385 on: February 02, 2011, 10:13:20 PM »
This was my next attempt this evening.  I was away, and when I came home the dough sitting on my kitchen table looked like it was too soft (or relaxed), so I gave it another stretch and fold and let it sit another hour.  I donít think I left the dough relax enough after the stretch and fold, because I was in a hurry. I wanted to see what would happen with this dough if I left it proof after having it in the deep-dish non steel pan.  I left the dough proof with olive oil on the skin for 45 minutes, with a towel.  This pie did rise well while in the oven and stayed that way after I took it out of the oven, but I wanted to get this pie finished so I quickly dressed it.  I think I should have waited a little while before I dressed it, but I am not sure of that.  I then put the pie back into the oven until the cheese was melted.

Although this pie did taste good, I am still not satisfied with how this compares to the pie I had made at market before.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #386 on: February 02, 2011, 10:15:14 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #387 on: February 03, 2011, 10:09:55 AM »
Norma: Nice looking slices there. What was the difference between them and what you baked at market last week?

JLP

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #388 on: February 03, 2011, 11:33:21 AM »
Norma: Nice looking slices there. What was the difference between them and what you baked at market last week?

JLP



Jose,

The crumb of this pizza wasnít as light as the crumb at market.  The slices at market were much lighter and there was a better crumb structure.  I am still trying to decide what flours to use for another attempt.  I might try Better for Bread flour in combination with either durum or some kind of Caputo.  If anyone thinks this would be a decent approach for my next attempt, let me know.  I did get good results with using Better for Bread flour in my Tartine bread.  The crumb was really light and the slices of bread almost melted in my mouth when eaten. 

As anyone can see by the pictures the pie did rise well in the oven, but when I cut it, there wasnít as much crumb structure as I thought there would be.  I still donít know if I hadnít given the dough ball  another stretch and fold if maybe there would have been a lighter crumb.  The dough felt very light and airy before I gave it another stretch and fold.

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #389 on: February 03, 2011, 12:46:36 PM »
I dug up and translated a few posts from Massimo of Pizzeria Bosco which I think are highly relevant here. If any Italian-speakers see any blatant errors in my trans. please advise ASAP.

"[C]on lievitazione in teglia, cioŤ con ancora produzione di anidride carbonica in teglia, non si puo' dire "alla Romana", che prevede la stesura in teglia, e la sua cottura, senza aspettare la lievitazione, perchŤ semplicemente, Ť giŗ fatta".

With a pan rise, i.e. with further production of co2 gas in the pan, it can't be said to be "alla Romana", which latter calls for forming it in the pan, and then baking it, without waiting for it to rise, since quite simply, it's already done.

Non puoi chiamare teglia alla Romana, una pasta che fai lievitare in teglia. Sarŗ una pizza alla teglia, ma non alla Romana, sono due tecniche diverse".

You can't call it teglia alla Romana if the dough is risen in the pan. It would be a pizza alla teglia, but not alla Romana, those are two different techniques.

"Per esempio la focaccia pugliese, o la genovese, Ť una pasta lievitata, o meglio, finisce di lievitare in teglia, e non ha certo gli alveoli che vedi nella mia pizza, che Ť lavorazione alla romana, con idratazioni anche al 90-95%".

For example focaccia Pugliese, or Genovese, is a dough that is risen, or better yet, finishes rising in the pan, and certainly doesn't have the alveoles you see on my pizza, which is made the Roman way, even at 90-95% hydration.

"[C]he con una lievitazione in teglia, gli alveoli come quelli che vedi nelle mie foto, non ti escono, e anche il prodotto fini quindi sarŗ diverso. Con lavorazione alla romana, il prodotto ha una conservazione migliore e piu' lunga, la puoi riscaldare anche dopo 6 ore, e torna come appena fatta, rimane morbida sopra e con un leggero velo croccante sotto".

With a pan-rise, you won't get the sort of alveoles you see in my pics, and furthermore the end result will be different. With the Roman method, the result keeps better and for longer, it can be reheated after 6 hours, and it will be just like it was when it was first made, remaining soft on the top and with a light crispy layer on the bottom.



« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 01:04:27 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #390 on: February 03, 2011, 01:13:20 PM »
Jose - Thank you for posting these quotes. Very informative.

And Matt - Thanks for posting the pizza in teglia mix ingredients awhile back. Where did you find that info?

Norma - I am also trying a "bread flour" recipe this weekend. I am doing 75% KABF and 25% Ultimate Performer high gluten. Let's compare notes after the bake if you decide to use Better for Bread in combination with Durum.

John
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 01:15:51 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #391 on: February 03, 2011, 05:05:24 PM »
And Matt - Thanks for posting the pizza in teglia mix ingredients awhile back. Where did you find that info?


No problem John.  I read it from the pizza.it forum a while back.

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #392 on: February 03, 2011, 05:11:22 PM »
Jose,

I also want to thank you for the information. 

John,

Thanks for posting what you are going to try this weekend.  I donít think I am going to try and make anymore dough until Sunday, because I have too many slices leftover (also from another pizza I made).  I did give some away, but I am only one person trying to eat the other slices.  I hope your bake and formula go well.  If you want to, we can compare our bakes if I get to go to market Tuesday.  It is supposed to snow again and I would really like to try out my deck oven, where I got better results.  What temperature are you baking?  I did decide to try Better for Bread flour in combination with durum flour.  I donít know if I am going to use a poolish or just use CY.  Hopefully soon I will be able to get a blue steel pan.

Matt,

Thanks, too!

Norma
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Offline Elizabeth Minchilli

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #393 on: February 04, 2011, 03:06:12 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.


Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #394 on: February 04, 2011, 05:37:26 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.



Elizabeth,
Welcome to the forum!  I have read your posts & they are fantastic & very helpful.  As you can see, a few of us have been trying to duplicate the master Gabriele's creations & it has been hit & miss.  I toally agree that handling is key to the end result.  I have personally studied it in great depth & I'm pretty sure that I have it down pat.  My biggest confusion is the flour.  I have tried many combinations using Caputo Red, Caputo Blue, Hard Spring Wheat, Semola, etc but have yet to achieve the "perfect blend".  My next attempt will be using grano tenero (soft wheat) & semola rimacinata di grano duro.  I'm thinking of a 75/25 blend.  What do you think & or recommend?  Any insight will be extremely helpful.

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #395 on: February 04, 2011, 06:47:03 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread.

Elizabeth - I am so glad you made it over here and decided to participate. In my email, I had asked about crumb shots from your class - feel free to post them here so everyone has a chance to see. Again, welcome.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #396 on: February 04, 2011, 07:28:33 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.



Elizabeth,

I am also glad to see you on the forum.  Welcome!  I enjoy your blog and how you detailed everything you learned while taking classes from  Gabriele Bonci.  :) You have a wealth of knowledge.  Have you tried to make pizza in teglia, since you took the classes?  I also would be interested in knowing what kinds of flours to try. 

I also have been trying different attempts to make pizza in teglia, with many different results.

This is your blog.   http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/

After you have five posts, I think you can post links.  I did post on your blog as learning pizza maker.

Norma
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Offline Elizabeth Minchilli

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #397 on: February 04, 2011, 08:49:56 AM »
I will try to post more on flours used in the next few days. I know that we used all flours from Mulino Marino, but have to look at my notes to see exactly which ones. The most important thing, according to Bonci is the flours, and that they be organic, freshly milled. I'll be back with much more specific info.

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #398 on: February 04, 2011, 10:30:11 AM »
Hi Elizabeth! It's beyond delightful that somebody with first-hand knowledge of the subject found this thread, and anything you would care to contribute will be deeply appreciated. Pizza in teglia alla Romana is an obscure topic in North America to say the very least, but interest is growing and progress in understanding the style is being made (as you can see in this thread through its 20-something sprawling pages). Mind you, most of that progress has come from a combination of studying pictures, reading badly-translated Italian-language blogs and forum posts, guesswork, and above all experimentation; I've never even been to Pizzarium  :-[ . Once again, I really look forward to learning from your direct experience and contacts. If you have any questions about navigating the comments or anything else just ask.

JLP
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 10:32:04 AM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #399 on: February 04, 2011, 01:58:52 PM »
In light of John and Norma's remarks above, I decided to put off the baguette flour experiment for a while on the grounds that I probably don't have enough technique yet to make the most of a lower-protein flour. So I decided I'd try a dough with 100% of my normal, higher protein AP instead. 88% hydration, .3% IDY, 2% salt, 4% oil. Then I figured I'd try to make it entirely by hand with no machine assistance. Oh yeah, that was a much better idea than my original plan ::). Out of one frying pan, into another, much bigger one... :-[

I mixed it into a mass, dumped it onto the board, and tried some slap-and-folds. So far, so good. Then I noticed a lot was sticking to the board, so I picked it up and did some stretch-and-folds between my hands. Pretty soon, the stuff was firmly stuck to my hands, much like the giant spider-web in some 50s-era horror movie. I kept on going, and eventually got something that could pried off my hands and placed on the bench, albeit at the cost of mashing in more bench flour than I wanted as well as additional oil. I then did a few stretch and folds, and some push-and-folds (the latter because I wanted to re-incorporate the considerable amount of dough that had stuck to my hands). I left the ball alone for 20 minutes, did less than 3 minutes worth of push-and-folds, left it another 20, and did less than 1 minute of the same. By now, it was a very nice, smooth ball, but it seemed kind of "tight" and I hope I didn't overdo things. In any case, it is now in the fridge where it's going to spend 48 hours.

JLP 
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