Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 128590 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #400 on: February 04, 2011, 05:28:51 PM »
In light of John and Norma's remarks above, I decided to put off the baguette flour experiment for a while on the grounds that I probably don't have enough technique yet to make the most of a lower-protein flour. So I decided I'd try a dough with 100% of my normal, higher protein AP instead. 88% hydration, .3% IDY, 2% salt, 4% oil. Then I figured I'd try to make it entirely by hand with no machine assistance. Oh yeah, that was a much better idea than my original plan ::). Out of one frying pan, into another, much bigger one... :-[

I mixed it into a mass, dumped it onto the board, and tried some slap-and-folds. So far, so good. Then I noticed a lot was sticking to the board, so I picked it up and did some stretch-and-folds between my hands. Pretty soon, the stuff was firmly stuck to my hands, much like the giant spider-web in some 50s-era horror movie. I kept on going, and eventually got something that could pried off my hands and placed on the bench, albeit at the cost of mashing in more bench flour than I wanted as well as additional oil. I then did a few stretch and folds, and some push-and-folds (the latter because I wanted to re-incorporate the considerable amount of dough that had stuck to my hands). I left the ball alone for 20 minutes, did less than 3 minutes worth of push-and-folds, left it another 20, and did less than 1 minute of the same. By now, it was a very nice, smooth ball, but it seemed kind of "tight" and I hope I didn't overdo things. In any case, it is now in the fridge where it's going to spend 48 hours.

JLP 

Jose,

You have me laughing out loud with your post.  I have seen when trying to work with a high hydration dough how it can be hard to understand what to do, until enough experiments are done.  Is this the first time you mixed a high hydration dough by hand?

I donít know what techniques John or other members that are trying to make this dough do, but I have made the Tartine bread dough by hand, but I never tried to make any of my recent doughs for this thread by hand.  I use my Kitchen Aid Professional HD and in recent attempts and have added the flour slowly and kept mixing until the gluten formed. (which in my mixer can take awhile for a high hydration dough) At least until the dough almost clears the mixing bowl. Then I do series of stretch and folds until the dough becomes less sticky.  I keep doing these over periods of time.  I usually wet my hands so the dough doesnít stick, but a little still does. The dough even can sometimes become slack again.  I donít know, but read different places that the extra water doesnít matter in the formula.  I can see when I think the dough is getting to the point of being able to be used. In some of my experiments I did stretch and folds and then left the dough in the refrigerator over night and did more stretch and folds the next day.  So far I never had to add any extra flour when trying to open the skin. (only a normal amount, that I usually use to open any skin) 

Best of luck when trying your dough.  :)  Maybe one of the other members can also tell how they mix a high hydration dough. Maybe we all can learn.

Norma
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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #401 on: February 04, 2011, 10:24:32 PM »
Jose.

Re:  The wet dough - A bench scrapper can be a wonderful thing!  I use one for folding sloppy dough and, if lightly floured, it is just the ticket for me.

Paul

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #402 on: February 04, 2011, 10:41:18 PM »
Norma: Yes, it's the first time I ever mixed a dough that heavily hydrated by hand. It's something I plan on doing again (in a more controlled way) if I get a decent result out of this effort.

Parallei: I almost forgot what a bench scrapper was until you brought it up, since I usually don't need one- but now I can sure see how one would come in handy.

JLP
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #403 on: February 05, 2011, 05:13:00 AM »
The link below offers a comprehensive explanation of Italian Flours

http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/italianflours.

Based on what I've read/seen, I think a good blend would be 1/3 organic bread flour, 1/3 semola di grano duro, 1/3 farina di grano tenero (pastry flour).  The above blend will yield a protein value of about 11.2%. I would also do what John did & add a little cold starter to add some acidity.  As witnessed by Elizabeth, the formula is only a small piece of the puzzle, the technique is by far the most important factor in determining the end result.

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #404 on: February 05, 2011, 06:36:36 AM »
The link below offers a comprehensive explanation of Italian Flours

http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/italianflours.

Based on what I've read/seen, I think a good blend would be 1/3 organic bread flour, 1/3 semola di grano duro, 1/3 farina di grano tenero (pastry flour).  The above blend will yield a protein value of about 11.2%. I would also do what John did & add a little cold starter to add some acidity.  As witnessed by Elizabeth, the formula is only a small piece of the puzzle, the technique is by far the most important factor in determining the end result.

Matt


Matt - Excellent link and analysis. Yesterday I put together a 50% AP (365 Organic), 25% Organic KABF, and 25% Guisto's Organic Ultimate Performer - in the neighborhood of your recommended flour composition. I will post results on sunday after the bake.

John

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #405 on: February 05, 2011, 06:39:33 AM »
Matt - Excellent link and analysis. Yesterday I put together a 50% AP (365 Organic), 25% Organic KABF, and 25% Guisto's Organic Ultimate Performer - in the neighborhood of your recommended flour composition. I will post results on sunday after the bake.

John

Thanks John, I look forward to it.  No pans yet, still on back order.

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #406 on: February 05, 2011, 07:32:16 AM »
A post from 2007 showing the Pizzarium crumb - very interesting:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5754.msg48962.html#msg48962

John

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #407 on: February 05, 2011, 07:44:51 AM »
The link below offers a comprehensive explanation of Italian Flours

http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/italianflours.

Based on what I've read/seen, I think a good blend would be 1/3 organic bread flour, 1/3 semola di grano duro, 1/3 farina di grano tenero (pastry flour).  The above blend will yield a protein value of about 11.2%. I would also do what John did & add a little cold starter to add some acidity.  As witnessed by Elizabeth, the formula is only a small piece of the puzzle, the technique is by far the most important factor in determining the end result.

Matt


Matt,

Thanks for the article and analysis of what flours to try in combination.   When I used my last formula at Reply 362 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125523.html#msg125523 and then tried to make the pizza at Reply 385 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125637.html#msg125637 I could see how much harder that flour combination was to form the gluten.  That dough ball kept becoming slack again, even after all the stretch and folds, until finally it appeared to be formed okay.  I wouldnít think when using KASL in combination with another flour the gluten would have been so hard to from.  That is a high protein flour.  I will have to rethink what blend I will try next.  I do think however, I am going to have part Better for Bread flour in the mix.

I also agree the techniques used in making this kind of dough are important.  Do you mind telling what kind of tecniques you used in forming the gluten.  Are they anything like my techniques.

John,

Best of luck with your bake and thanks for the link to the picture of a real Pizzarium slice.  I have looked at pictures under Google images of Pizzarium slices and different pictures have a different crumb look.  I wonder why the crumb would look different on different slices.

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #408 on: February 05, 2011, 08:20:45 AM »
Matt,


Do you mind telling what kind of tecniques you used in forming the gluten.  Are they anything like my techniques.


Norma

Norma I do a double hydration using my spiral mixer.  In the 1st stage I incorporate all the ingredients & hold back 20% of the water.  When the dough reaches moderate gluten development I add the remaining formula water until it comes together as a single mass.  I do a 30 minute riposo followed by series of rigeneri every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours or so.

Matt

Matt

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #409 on: February 05, 2011, 08:39:41 AM »
Norma I do a double hydration using my spiral mixer.  In the 1st stage I incorporate all the ingredients & hold back 20% of the water.  When the dough reaches moderate gluten development I add the remaining formula water until it comes together as a single mass.  I do a 30 minute riposo followed by series of rigeneri every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours or so.

Matt


Matt,

Thanks for sharing your techniques.  :)  Although I donít have a special mixer like you do, I am trying to get about the same results.  Donít even know if my mixer is capable of producing the same results, but I will try.

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #410 on: February 05, 2011, 08:55:21 AM »
Matt,

Thanks for sharing your techniques.  :)  Although I donít have a special mixer like you do, I am trying to get about the same results.  Donít even know if my mixer is capable of producing the same results, but I will try.

Norma


Norma,
Try this http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #411 on: February 05, 2011, 09:07:33 AM »
Norma,
Try this http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162



Matt,

Thanks for your help with being able to try this with my stand mixer.  I will see how it goes.  I still need to learn a lot of all of the methods and techniques used for this type of pizza.

I appreciated the link.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #412 on: February 05, 2011, 12:36:07 PM »
I have looked at pictures under Google images of Pizzarium slices and different pictures have a different crumb look.  I wonder why the crumb would look different on different slices.

I've noticed this too. I suppose that in a busy, commercial setting, not every dough can be nursed and massaged to perfection, or with perfect consistency, under pressure to get them in and out of the oven ASAP. Also, I think chance factors that are impossible, or at least very difficult, to predict and control play a big role in this type of pizza in any case.

JLP
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 12:41:59 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline doughboy55

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #413 on: February 05, 2011, 04:37:24 PM »
How does everyone store their organic flour? I read somewhere that it should be stored in the fridge or should i just store it at room temp like any other flour?

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #414 on: February 05, 2011, 08:03:45 PM »
Depends on how fast you go through it, but other things being equal preferably in the fridge or freezer (bring it up to room temp before using).

JLP
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #415 on: February 06, 2011, 02:05:01 PM »
Below are two experiments:

1. 50% 365 Organic AP, 25% KABF, and 25% Ultimate Performer
2. 75% KABF and 25% Ultimate performer

The results were nearly identical - a very open, light, soft crumb with a crispy bottom and exterior. The 365 AP is also malted, like the KABF. The cool thing about this attempt is that I cooked the pies this morning, and I will be topping, reheating, and serving this evening. A true "Pizzarium" approach to see if the dough formulation works as it is truly intended. The formulation/workflow is the same as my previous attempt, except the yeast is at .7%. I will post pics of the final product tonight.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #416 on: February 06, 2011, 02:24:22 PM »
John, you've done it! I love it! Awesome!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 02:26:18 PM by Jackie Tran »

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #417 on: February 06, 2011, 02:46:54 PM »
Below are two experiments:

1. 50% 365 Organic AP, 25% KABF, and 25% Ultimate Performer
2. 75% KABF and 25% Ultimate performer

The results were nearly identical - a very open, light, soft crumb with a crispy bottom and exterior. The 365 AP is also malted, like the KABF. The cool thing about this attempt is that I cooked the pies this morning, and I will be topping, reheating, and serving this evening. A true "Pizzarium" approach to see if the dough formulation works as it is truly intended. The formulation/workflow is the same as my previous attempt, except the yeast is at .7%. I will post pics of the final product tonight.

John

John,

I agree you have achieved what you were trying to achieve. Awesome and Great job.  ;D  Do you believe the workflow of this kind of dough has to do with more of the how you handle the dough than the flours that are used or do you think you need the right combination of flours and workflow to achieve the kind of results you got? I can see how strong your dough looks. 

I will be waiting to see you final pies.  Seems like you found the right combination to try.  Thanks for your experiments.  :)

Norma
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #418 on: February 06, 2011, 03:14:08 PM »
John,

I agree you have achieved what you were trying to achieve. Awesome and Great job.  ;D  Do you believe the workflow of this kind of dough has to do with more of the how you handle the dough than the flours that are used or do you think you need the right combination of flours and workflow to achieve the kind of results you got? I can see how strong your dough looks. 

I will be waiting to see you final pies.  Seems like you found the right combination to try.  Thanks for your experiments.  :)

Norma

Thanks Chau and Norma!

Norma - I really don't quite yet know. I think you need the help of a high gluten flour in some percentage. And my last 3 attempts have all been basically the same workflow - using tartine style turns over 2-3 hours, 48 hour cold ferment. The first try, using mostly high gluten, was not good at all crumb-wise. The last two, using a combination of weaker flour and some HG, still using the same workflow, yielded very good results. I think we can all get our crumb to LOOK like Pizzarium, but unless Gabrielle himself tastes our dough himself as says, "yes, it looks good but the crumb is not soft enough," or "the taste is not as rich as mine," etc. then we can only go on what works best for us. I think my crumb is very soft - but who knows if it even remotely compares to the master. And he obviously uses superior flour that is freshly milled.

John

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #419 on: February 06, 2011, 03:48:15 PM »
Thanks Chau and Norma!

Norma - I really don't quite yet know. I think you need the help of a high gluten flour in some percentage. And my last 3 attempts have all been basically the same workflow - using tartine style turns over 2-3 hours, 48 hour cold ferment. The first try, using mostly high gluten, was not good at all crumb-wise. The last two, using a combination of weaker flour and some HG, still using the same workflow, yielded very good results. I think we can all get our crumb to LOOK like Pizzarium, but unless Gabrielle himself tastes our dough himself as says, "yes, it looks good but the crumb is not soft enough," or "the taste is not as rich as mine," etc. then we can only go on what works best for us. I think my crumb is very soft - but who knows if it even remotely compares to the master. And he obviously uses superior flour that is freshly milled.

John

John,

Thanks for explaining how you think you got such good results, even using different flours.  :) I also think this kind of dough is something like the Tartine Bread dough, from the experiments I did.  I havenít come up with a workable combination of flours, but think at some point most members will be able to able to make this style of pizza, if they understand working with high hydration dough and the workflow.

I will be anxious to see your pies. Wish I was there to taste some.

Norma
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