Pizzarium

[norma427]

If you want, take a look though this link about Sicilian pizza and other ideas.

http://www.pizzablogger.org

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

Bob1,

From the pic I'll say that mine is an earlier version of that one (I bought mine in the mid-80s). The dough hook pictured is exactly the same and is what I use without exception.

The flour was a mix of about 70% bread flour (Robin Hood) and AP (generic house-brand of a local grocery chain). I made the poolish, put it in the fridge, took it out the next day, and let it rise on the counter until it was dotted with bubbles and some creases had begun to appear on the surface. I poured that in the mixer, put in the rest of the flour and yeast, then the salt and oil, and mixed at max speed (with the abovementioned dough hook) for about 7 minutes. I then shut off the mixer, waited 10 minutes, mixed again for 1 minute at max speed, and repeated those steps 3 more times.

Whether or not prolonging the mix would help is something I regard as an open question. The dough hook did not seem to be doing much more than stirring the batter. At lower hydration levels, dough continuously winds around the hook like tape on a spool, and gets a good workout by being constantly stretched in the process- something that doesn't happen when the hook is just stirring liquid. All of this raises issues concerning gluten development and so on that I just don't have the technical chops to address (e.g. does batter turn into dough if it's stirred long enough ?).

I also think I'm going to have to get some semolina flour, which (judging by the results obtained by various people around here) seems ideally suited for
high-hydration formulas.

Norma:

Thanks for the link. Is that the blog of the guy who occasionally posts here under the username pizzablogger ?

-JLP

[Bob1]

Jose,
I would not worry about the durum at this point, and I would not worry about mixing times and following a cookie cutter pattern.  I would suggest developing the gluten in the preferment and the final dough.  This is against what bread makers say but I try to think out of the box.  You can do this by doing an autolyse for 20 minutes to hydrate the flour and then use you whisk at a low speed.  Do not worry about time, only gluten development and temp.  You will find that there is a nonlinear curve in respects to mixer friction and gluten development.  I have a small IR gun from work that I use to measure my dough temp as I mix.  You will see that as the gluten develops the friction increases and the dough temp rises faster.  I also try to use at least 10 degrees of mixing friction to achieve the final dough.  I believe that the optimum yeast development is between 68 to 80 degrees.  When I look at the Italian sites they recommend 73 degrees final dough temp for pizza so that is what I am testing now.  Jose, don't get me wrong, I am not an authority on this, and these are just my findings with the test that I am doing now.  I have been quite pleased with the dough development.  When I watch the videos and I see these guys working with wet doughs it always amazed me.  Now that I started doing this I find that when I pull the dough out of the bowl it pulls out together as one developed mass.  Look at the picture Marco posted where the guy stretches the dough a foot and a half out of the mixer.  Yeah, we would all like to have spiral mixers, but there is a lot of improvement available for what we have now.  I would start with the whisk until it can not perform and switch to the hook, then mix until I got to 73 degrees (Slowly).  I have never tried it but I would think that if you put one beater in a hand mixer, at low speed, you could probably use it between the whisk and kneader bar phase.   I'll try to get some pics next time I mix.

Thanks,

Bob1

[Jose L. Piedra]

I would start with the whisk until it can not perform and switch to the hook

Bingo. I was trying to think the exact same thing in my last post but couldn't articulate it until I read that. I'm definitely going to give it a go the next time out.

-JLP

[Bob1]

Jose,
I just made another batch of preferment using the same formula as my last, with the exception of using KASL instead of KABF.  I took pics with temps so you could see how the development took place at low speed over 45 minutes.  I used 50 degree water with 67 degree flour,  It started at a combined average of 62 F and went to 73 F.  You can see the gluten develop by just stirring.  At one point around 68 deg I took a pic while flapping the scraper so you could see the webbing.  Take note to the right hand side feeding the roller and you can see the twisting overlap start as it gets stronger.  By the end you can see what the Yahoo mixer group call the doughnut.  " Be one with the doughnut".  It is hard to see but the wall was high.  There is no need for a special mixer to achieve this.  It is just a matter of making it work.

Thanks,

Bob1

[Bob1]

Here's more

Bob1

[Matthew]

Jose,
I just made another batch of preferment using the same formula as my last, with the exception of using KASL instead of KABF.  I took pics with temps so you could see how the development took place at low speed over 45 minutes.  I used 50 degree water with 67 degree flour,  It started at a combined average of 62 F and went to 73 F.  You can see the gluten develop by just stirring.  At one point around 68 deg I took a pic while flapping the scraper so you could see the webbing.  Take note to the right hand side feeding the roller and you can see the twisting overlap start as it gets stronger.  By the end you can see what the Yahoo mixer group call the doughnut.  " Be one with the doughnut".  It is hard to see but the wall was high.  There is no need for a special mixer to achieve this.  It is just a matter of making it work.

Thanks,

Bob1

Hi Bob,
Good job.  What's your overall mix time & at what speed.  I usually resposition the roller closer to the bowl once the dough starts to thicken.  You want to get it to the point where it's pressing tightly against the dough but not crawling up the roller.

Matt

[Bob1]

Thanks Matt,
I had the roller close to the edge 90% of the time.  I also used the slowest speed 90% of the time.  Near the end I watch the dough and speed it to about 1/2 way.  Total time for this was about 45 to 50 minutes.  With a high hydration like this, the biggest effect I get from this mixer is that I can see what's happening.  I firmly believe this could be done with a hand mixer with one beater, if you had the patience.  So the point would be to use the time and settings as a guide line and try to watch the effect. 

Hey, how did you make out with adding the barley malt to yours?  I used to add it to pies and liked the taste and the browning factor that it added. 

Thanks,

Bob1

[Matthew]

Thanks Matt,
I had the roller close to the edge 90% of the time.  I also used the slowest speed 90% of the time.  Near the end I watch the dough and speed it to about 1/2 way.  Total time for this was about 45 to 50 minutes.  With a high hydration like this, the biggest effect I get from this mixer is that I can see what's happening.  I firmly believe this could be done with a hand mixer with one beater, if you had the patience.  So the point would be to use the time and settings as a guide line and try to watch the effect. 

Hey, how did you make out with adding the barley malt to yours?  I used to add it to pies and liked the taste and the browning factor that it added. 

Thanks,

Bob1

Hi Bob,
All in all everything worked out quite well.  I was torn on how much malt to add so I settled on 5% which in my opinion is a little too high.  I'm thinking more in the 2% range for next time.  The overall hydration of the dough was 62.5% & was 50/50 Caputo/Semola.  I also used strutto instead of EVOO.  Overall, the dough handled beautifully.  The malt makes a huge difference in the browning, so much so that if your not careful you can easily burn the bottom.  For this reason, my next focaccia will be baked on the middle rack @ 450 degrees.  My oven is quite large & holds its temperature quite well so I'm sure that my results would differ.

Matt

[Bob1]

Matt,
I agree about the malt.  I used it at 2.5% at 525 deg and it worked well.  I have not tried it at higher temps but I would think I would have to drop it more at 650.

Thanks,

Bob1

[norma427]

  I firmly believe this could be done with a hand mixer with one beater, if you had the patience. 

Thanks,

Bob1

Bob1,

I did use a regular mixer Hamilton Beach to mix my last dough at home.  The mixing bowl was spinning in the sink for a long while.  So I think this method could also work. This was followed by dumping the dough with a scraper into another container, then using a spatula to mix and rest at different times. I am going to be trying this later in the week and using one of the natural starters.  Will post if it all works out.
This is where I used the regular Hamilton Beach Mixer and how the dough was made. reply # 68 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.60.html  You can see gluten strands did develop.  I will see if a different formula for the dough works out better.

Norma

[Bob1]

Norma,
That's interesting.  It looks like you used both beaters.  I would think that the gluten could get damaged with two.  How long did you mix it? 

Thanks,

Bob1 

[norma427]

Norma,
That's interesting.  It looks like you used both beaters.  I would think that the gluten could get damaged with two.  How long did you mix it? 

Thanks,

Bob1 

Bob1,

I did use two beaters.  The mixing bowl was just spinning around in my double stainless steel sink.  I did mix for about 10 minutes, before incorporating the biga.  Then mixed for about 10 minutes more with the biga. I will try this method again this week, with a natural starter.

Norma

[norma427]

For anyone following this thread, this might be some more information on making the dough.  I tried to get this link to work, but couldn’t.  Maybe someone with more experience can get the link to work.  I just copied the part of the article that was interesting. 


http://foodsnobblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/franco-manca-london

Such draconian measures have scared away lesser men, but Macoli is determined, focussed and, if early signs are anything to go by, very near to fulfilling his ambitions. However, being authentic is not enough; he also wants to be the best and so has recruited Neapolitan pizza and wild yeast expert, Marco Parente, as a fulltime consultant to create the perfect dough. Now, this critique has taught me a great deal about pizza including that the most important ingredient is the dough and the most vital element of this most important ingredient is the crescita (culture/starter/mother) i.e. the magical, living organism from which the sourdough grows. With this in mind, Parente procured a very special, very rare 200 year old culture from a secret source off the island of Ischia in the Gulf of Naples. This crescita has been combined with organic stone milled flour made mainly with Italian grains and is allowed a minimum of 20 hours to rise – consider this against the 4-6 hours that typical store-bought breads are speed-risen in. This may sound all well and good, but what it really means is that the friendly bacteria in the crescita does most of the hard work for you, breaking down the gluten in the flour, to produce a healthier, easier-to-digest pizza. So I can eat even more pizza before becoming too full, right? To ensure and achieve all this, FM has had two of its very own wood-fired, brick ovens and a dough mixer made by Forno Napoletano and imported especially from Naples.

edit:  Sorry but the link does work..don't know why it didn't work on word. 
                           

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The Marco Parente in the item you quoted is known on this forum as pizzanapoletana.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The Marco Parente in the item you quoted is known on this forum as pizzanapoletana.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks you for adding that.  I knew it was  pizzanapoletana.  Would it have been proper etiquette if I had first used his name before I posted the article?  Sorry,  if I didn't follow what I should have done, before posting.

Norma

[Bob1]

Jose,
I took some shots of the second phase.

Thanks,

Bob1

[Bob1]

Jose,
Here is the pie I made today with the above batter.  It fermented 12 hours at 55 F. After phase two it about doubled in the mixing bowl in 3 hours.  I then cooked it at 575 F.  The only difference from the previous recipe is that I replaced the phase one 49g of KABF with KASL.  This pie was very light and airy.  It also had good taste.  I read posts about using a black buster pan above 500 degrees but decided to cook it on the stone, just to be safe.  I reserved two 315g balls for cold ferment.  It was interesting shaping the balls.  I cupped it in my hands and let gravity pull it down.  I then kept grabbing it and letting it fall while I balled it and then sealed it at the top.  It only required a little oil on my hands to do it.

[norma427]

Bob1,

Congratulations!    All your work has paid off.  The pictures look amazing.  Wish I could taste a slice.

Thanks for posting the pictures of your finished pie and how you handled the dough.

Norma

[Bob1]

Hey guys,
I was busy this afternoon and just took a quick shot of a slice before I put it away.  I just went to get a late night snack and I thought i would post a another slice.

Thanks,

bob1