Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 135339 times)

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #320 on: January 27, 2011, 09:26:54 AM »
Thanks Norma.
I was searching yesterday for a same day pizza in teglia recipe but found none.  This one will fit the bill perfectly. Bakers percents:

Ingredients:

 3 trays for 30 x 35    (12 inches x 14 inches)

 900g flour W 250 (or 0 for a pizza with a high absorption)     (100%)
 720gr water                                                                  ( 80%)
 45g extra virgin olive oil                                                  (   5%)
 18gr salt                                                                      (  2%)
 4.5 g fresh yeast                                                           (  .5%)
 1 teaspoon barley malt (optional)
 Semolina for dusting
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Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #321 on: January 27, 2011, 09:37:52 AM »
Thanks Norma.
I was searching yesterday for a same day pizza in teglia recipe but found none.  This one will fit the bill perfectly. Bakers percents:

Ingredients:

 3 trays for 30 x 35    (12 inches x 14 inches)

 900g flour W 250 (or 0 for a pizza with a high absorption)     (100%)
 720gr water                                                                  ( 80%)
 45g extra virgin olive oil                                                  (   5%)
 18gr salt                                                                      (  2%)
 4.5 g fresh yeast                                                           (  .5%)
 1 teaspoon barley malt (optional)
 Semolina for dusting


Jet_deck,

Thanks for doing the bakerís percents.  :) I donít know how that formula will work out for a one day dough, but it sounded interesting to me.  Best of luck if you try the formula out.  :) The percent of olive oil seems a little high, but that might also help the dough be lighter.  I am not sure about that, but I only used 3.5 % of olive oil in my dough.

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #322 on: January 27, 2011, 09:46:24 AM »
I believe the flour grade specified corresponds pretty much to American AP.

In my experience, at 5% oil, I'd expect the pie to come out more chewy than crispy, though I suppose a lot depends on the flour and level of dough development. Try it and see what happens.

JLP
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #325 on: January 27, 2011, 10:14:04 AM »
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foolishpoolish

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #326 on: January 27, 2011, 10:16:27 AM »
Recipe, Gabriele Bonci on Pizza.it

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679



Interesting how his recipe seems to have changed since 2003. The current (taught) recipe seems to utilise 90% flour from Mulino Marino and 10% Emmer (Farro) wheat. I wonder if this is closer to the dough he uses at Pizzarium?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #327 on: January 27, 2011, 12:02:59 PM »
The recipe from 2003 uses a flour (5 stagioni Oro) that is W390 and 14% protein - a very strong flour - and has a 36 hour cold ferment using a poolish. The recipe posted for the class uses a flour from Mulino Marino that is W270 (Buratto) which is a medium strength flour (close to our "bread flour") - and uses a cold ferment of 24 hours, but it is a direct dough. Also, the 2003 recipe uses a spiral mixer in the initial stage, and the taught class uses stretch and folds to develop the gluten.

I believe that Norma's latest masterpiece was achieved with a very high gluten flour (durum), using stretch and folds over a period of time, and then left to cold ferment for 2 overnights, with another round of stretch and folds, and then left out for 7 hours at room temp before baking. Her description was that the finished dough was "springy" - which makes sense. The dough was left to develop alot of it's gluten over a long period of time, and became very strong (durum has high gluten, but the gluten is generally weak, so the caputo helped).

What I am trying to determine is why one would choose to do a long ferment (up to 96 hours in some cases) with a very strong flour, as opposed to doing a relatively short ferment using a medium flour (or even a same day dough using a levain). You can develop the gluten to any stage you want using the right initial mix method. If flavor is the reason, then that can be made up for using the correct percentage of spring/winter wheats in combination with a good levain.

Below is a pic of a dough I have been cold fermenting for 48 hours. It will be cooked this evening. It is 75/25 Giusto's Ultimate Performer (14% P) and Golden Haven (11.5% P spring/winter mix). No mixer was used, opting instead for stretch and folds over the course of 2 hours. I will post the formula with the baked pics - good or bad.

John
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 01:28:25 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #328 on: January 27, 2011, 12:27:45 PM »
Recipe, Gabriele Bonci on Pizza.it

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679




Dang...For over a year I've been trying to teach myself how to make these pies from studying pictures and whatnot, all the while oblivious to the fact that there exists a forum where the likes of Gabriele and the guy from Pizzeria Bosco are online giving out first-hand advice...I'm sure I have a doppelganger somewhere in Italy trying to teach himself NY pizza unaware of pizzamaking.com with its thousands of posts by the likes of Pete-zza and Varasano on the subject  ::)

Unfortunately the forum is based on an obsolete BBS format that makes it extremely difficult to navigate over and above the language barrier, but I am definitely going to apply myself to trying to read it.

JLP
Scarsu d'ogghiu, e riccu di provolazzu ::)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #329 on: January 27, 2011, 01:41:48 PM »
I canít convert this recipe into bakerís percent,(because of my bad math skills)  but if anyone can, I would be interested to see what one pie would be in bakerís percent.


Norma,

To help you get over your math phobia, I will show you how to convert the dough formulation you referenced to baker's percent format and to calculate the thickness factor.

First, you have to convert all of the ingredients to baker's percent format. All baker's percents other than the flour, which is always 100% (by definition), are with respect to the weight of flour. So, for the formulation under discussion, if the weight of water is 720 grams, then its baker's percent is equal to 720/900, or 80%. Doing the same calculations for the rest of the ingredients will give you their respective baker's percents. The only wrinkle is the barley malt. Since the article apparently doesn't say whether the barley malt is dry or liquid, or whether it is diastatic or non-diastatic, I will assume that it is non-diastatic and liquid for our purposes, and intended as a sugar substitute. One teaspoon of a typical barley malt syrup weighs 0.2469135 ounces. To convert that to grams, multiply that number by 28.35 (since one ounce weighs 28.35 grams). That comes to 6.99999 grams for the single teaspoon of barley malt syrup. If you divide that number by 900, the baker's percent is 0.77776%.

Second, to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html for data formatting purposes, you need to add up the weights of all of the ingredients. For the formulation under discussion, that is 1694.499 grams. That number should be used in the expanded dough calculating tool using the grams Dough Weight option. Then the baker's percents are entered into the tool. Doing all this yields the following:

Flour (W 250) (100%):
Water (80%):
CY (0.50%):
Salt (2%):
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (5%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (0.77776%):
Total (188.27776%):
900 g  |  31.75 oz | 1.98 lbs
720 g  |  25.4 oz | 1.59 lbs
4.5 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs |
18 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.22 tsp | 1.07 tbsp
45 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10 tsp | 3.33 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
1694.5 g | 59.77 oz | 3.74 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For three 30cm x 35cm trays; no bowl residue compensation

Third, to calculate the thickness factor, you first have to convert the dimensions of the tray to inches. The dimensions given for the tray are 30cm x 35cm. Since one inch is equal to 2.54 cm, if you divide 30 and 35 by 2.54, you will end up with 11.81" x 13.78". If you multiply those numbers together, you will end up with the surface area of the tray. In this case, it will be 162.7362 square inches. That number will be used to calculate the thickness factor. However, there is one step left. Since the total dough weight is intended to be used for three trays, we have to divide the total dough weight, in ounces, by 3. So, in our case, one tray of dough weighs 59.77 ounces (from the above table) and when that number is divided by 3 we get 19.9233 ounces.

Finally, to get the thickness factor, we divide 19.9233 by the surface area of the tray, i.e., 162.7362. That gives us the thickness factor of 0.12243. That value might change slightly if a dry non-diastatic malt were used, or if a diastatic malt were intended. The numbers would have to be re-run in such a case. However, now that I have shown you how to do the math, hopefully you would be able to do the math yourself in such a case.

For those who are interested, I used the Google translator at http://translate.google.com/#it|en|. I selected Italian to English and entered the URL of the article at http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html into the translation box.

Peter


Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #330 on: January 27, 2011, 02:35:26 PM »
Peter,

I want to thank you for helping me try to get over my math phobia.  I donít know if I can ever get over seeing numbers and what to do with them.  For some reason my mind freezes even when I see something more complicated than basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division or something that can be simply figured out on a calculator.  I donít know what is the matter with my brain when it comes to math.  Maybe I have math dyslexia.  :-D

I will copy out your instructions on what to do the next time and see if I can figure this all out.  I want to be able to understand how to do all this, but it might take me awhile.  I hope you and other members can be patient with me.  I appreciate your lesson in math for a formula.  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline katieparla

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #331 on: January 27, 2011, 03:39:08 PM »
I took Bonci's pizza class in Rome recently and this is the pizza dough recipe we used:

1kg flour (types 0 or 1, aka buratto) Ė we used 90% white flour and 10% spelt flour
700g water - we actually all ended up using a bit more than this
40g extra virgin olive oil
20g sea salt
3.5g dry brewerís yeast - experienced bakers can substitute 100g sourdough starter

Bonci uses only Mulino Marino flour (easy enough to get in Italy; ive seen it in NYC at Eataly). If you cant use MM, he recommends organic, all-natural, stone-ground flour from a reputable mill. Im in the process of getting my other notes together and ill post a more complete report soon.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #332 on: January 27, 2011, 03:54:03 PM »
I took Bonci's pizza class in Rome recently and this is the pizza dough recipe we used:

1kg flour (types 0 or 1, aka buratto) Ė we used 90% white flour and 10% spelt flour
700g water - we actually all ended up using a bit more than this
40g extra virgin olive oil
20g sea salt
3.5g dry brewerís yeast - experienced bakers can substitute 100g sourdough starter

Bonci uses only Mulino Marino flour (easy enough to get in Italy; ive seen it in NYC at Eataly). If you cant use MM, he recommends organic, all-natural, stone-ground flour from a reputable mill. Im in the process of getting my other notes together and ill post a more complete report soon.



Welcome to the forum katieparla. Thanks very much for posting the recipe. I look forward to reading your complete report.

John

(edit: I thought your name looked familiar! http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/01/22/la-pizza-in-urbana-di-gabriele-bonci-il-partito-du-pilu-gozzovigli-da-tricolore-monti-a-roma/)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 04:02:06 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #333 on: January 27, 2011, 06:00:34 PM »
Epic fail. Tough bottom and a dense (although soft) crumb. Back to the drawing board. The only redeeming thing about this bake was that it tasted very good, and the new Paderno pans helped to cook the the pie evenly.

John

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #334 on: January 27, 2011, 06:44:58 PM »
John,

Your recent attempt looks very good to me.  Your crumb does look light and your whole pie looks delicious!

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #335 on: January 27, 2011, 06:59:53 PM »
John:  Did you let the dough proof in the pan before baking it by any chance?

JLP
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #336 on: January 27, 2011, 07:02:53 PM »
John:  Did you let the dough proof in the pan before baking it by any chance?

JLP

Jose - No, baked immediately.

John

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #337 on: January 27, 2011, 11:55:06 PM »
I baked the recipe that Norma found for pizza in teglia, found here:

If anyone is interested, this one blog is where I got ideas of how to make pizza in teglia. 

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html


I used my caputo (w=350) flour for this pizza in teglia.

I converted the 4.5 grams of cake yeast to ADY (4.5 x .4117 = 1.85 grams ADY) The recipe said take 450g of flour and 450g of water with the yeast and it should double in 3 hours.  I had no such luck.  I did notice that this recipe called for half of the yeast that member 'katieparla' posted above.

Another issue that I have with the recipe is the thickness factor.  I measured the dough for each of the three pizzas i made to 19 oz. and stretched out the first one to 11.5" x 13.75".  I feel that this is to thin when compared to pictures that others have posted.  The crumb was very closed in comparison to when I reduced how far I streched out the dough.  For example I would say that the 19 oz portion of dough was much better when it only covered 8" x 13"  I'm not saying it wasn't any good when it was thinner, but the pictures will hopefully show the difference.

I cooked them in the home oven at 500*  10 minutes on bake and 5 minutes on broil.  The taste was fantastic.  I loved it much.  I got to use my new 6-n-1's from Escalon.  (Doctored with sugar, salt, and 3 shakes of McCormicks italian spice.)  Ground turkey was the meat.  This was better than good, it was nearly killer.

Since I don't mind showing my failures here goes with the thinner crumb pizzas.

This was some good stuff. 

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #338 on: January 27, 2011, 11:59:38 PM »
When that one came out, I didn't stretch the dough as thin and came up with this.

The last two pictures are the best and worst of the crumb structure I was able to accomplish.
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #339 on: January 28, 2011, 06:31:24 AM »
Epic fail. Tough bottom and a dense (although soft) crumb. Back to the drawing board. The only redeeming thing about this bake was that it tasted very good, and the new Paderno pans helped to cook the the pie evenly.

John

John,
This is a tough one to nail & it's hit & miss.  FWIW my starter batch last week was also an Epic Loss.  It was the 1st & last time I use Caputo Red for pizza in Teglia.  To me, the best mix is 85/15 Manitoba to Semola.  Keep at it bro!  Hopefully Katie can shed some light.
BTW: How are the pans?  Mine are still on backorder.

Matt


 

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