Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 169402 times)

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #325 on: January 27, 2011, 10:14:04 AM »
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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #326 on: January 27, 2011, 10:16:27 AM »
Recipe, Gabriele Bonci on Pizza.it

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679


Interesting how his recipe seems to have changed since 2003. The current (taught) recipe seems to utilise 90% flour from Mulino Marino and 10% Emmer (Farro) wheat. I wonder if this is closer to the dough he uses at Pizzarium?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #327 on: January 27, 2011, 12:02:59 PM »
The recipe from 2003 uses a flour (5 stagioni Oro) that is W390 and 14% protein - a very strong flour - and has a 36 hour cold ferment using a poolish. The recipe posted for the class uses a flour from Mulino Marino that is W270 (Buratto) which is a medium strength flour (close to our "bread flour") - and uses a cold ferment of 24 hours, but it is a direct dough. Also, the 2003 recipe uses a spiral mixer in the initial stage, and the taught class uses stretch and folds to develop the gluten.

I believe that Norma's latest masterpiece was achieved with a very high gluten flour (durum), using stretch and folds over a period of time, and then left to cold ferment for 2 overnights, with another round of stretch and folds, and then left out for 7 hours at room temp before baking. Her description was that the finished dough was "springy" - which makes sense. The dough was left to develop alot of it's gluten over a long period of time, and became very strong (durum has high gluten, but the gluten is generally weak, so the caputo helped).

What I am trying to determine is why one would choose to do a long ferment (up to 96 hours in some cases) with a very strong flour, as opposed to doing a relatively short ferment using a medium flour (or even a same day dough using a levain). You can develop the gluten to any stage you want using the right initial mix method. If flavor is the reason, then that can be made up for using the correct percentage of spring/winter wheats in combination with a good levain.

Below is a pic of a dough I have been cold fermenting for 48 hours. It will be cooked this evening. It is 75/25 Giusto's Ultimate Performer (14% P) and Golden Haven (11.5% P spring/winter mix). No mixer was used, opting instead for stretch and folds over the course of 2 hours. I will post the formula with the baked pics - good or bad.

John
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 01:28:25 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #328 on: January 27, 2011, 12:27:45 PM »
Recipe, Gabriele Bonci on Pizza.it

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679



Dang...For over a year I've been trying to teach myself how to make these pies from studying pictures and whatnot, all the while oblivious to the fact that there exists a forum where the likes of Gabriele and the guy from Pizzeria Bosco are online giving out first-hand advice...I'm sure I have a doppelganger somewhere in Italy trying to teach himself NY pizza unaware of pizzamaking.com with its thousands of posts by the likes of Pete-zza and Varasano on the subject  ::)

Unfortunately the forum is based on an obsolete BBS format that makes it extremely difficult to navigate over and above the language barrier, but I am definitely going to apply myself to trying to read it.

JLP
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #329 on: January 27, 2011, 01:41:48 PM »
I canít convert this recipe into bakerís percent,(because of my bad math skills)  but if anyone can, I would be interested to see what one pie would be in bakerís percent.

Norma,

To help you get over your math phobia, I will show you how to convert the dough formulation you referenced to baker's percent format and to calculate the thickness factor.

First, you have to convert all of the ingredients to baker's percent format. All baker's percents other than the flour, which is always 100% (by definition), are with respect to the weight of flour. So, for the formulation under discussion, if the weight of water is 720 grams, then its baker's percent is equal to 720/900, or 80%. Doing the same calculations for the rest of the ingredients will give you their respective baker's percents. The only wrinkle is the barley malt. Since the article apparently doesn't say whether the barley malt is dry or liquid, or whether it is diastatic or non-diastatic, I will assume that it is non-diastatic and liquid for our purposes, and intended as a sugar substitute. One teaspoon of a typical barley malt syrup weighs 0.2469135 ounces. To convert that to grams, multiply that number by 28.35 (since one ounce weighs 28.35 grams). That comes to 6.99999 grams for the single teaspoon of barley malt syrup. If you divide that number by 900, the baker's percent is 0.77776%.

Second, to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html for data formatting purposes, you need to add up the weights of all of the ingredients. For the formulation under discussion, that is 1694.499 grams. That number should be used in the expanded dough calculating tool using the grams Dough Weight option. Then the baker's percents are entered into the tool. Doing all this yields the following:

Flour (W 250) (100%):
Water (80%):
CY (0.50%):
Salt (2%):
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (5%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (0.77776%):
Total (188.27776%):
900 g  |  31.75 oz | 1.98 lbs
720 g  |  25.4 oz | 1.59 lbs
4.5 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs |
18 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.22 tsp | 1.07 tbsp
45 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10 tsp | 3.33 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
1694.5 g | 59.77 oz | 3.74 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For three 30cm x 35cm trays; no bowl residue compensation

Third, to calculate the thickness factor, you first have to convert the dimensions of the tray to inches. The dimensions given for the tray are 30cm x 35cm. Since one inch is equal to 2.54 cm, if you divide 30 and 35 by 2.54, you will end up with 11.81" x 13.78". If you multiply those numbers together, you will end up with the surface area of the tray. In this case, it will be 162.7362 square inches. That number will be used to calculate the thickness factor. However, there is one step left. Since the total dough weight is intended to be used for three trays, we have to divide the total dough weight, in ounces, by 3. So, in our case, one tray of dough weighs 59.77 ounces (from the above table) and when that number is divided by 3 we get 19.9233 ounces.

Finally, to get the thickness factor, we divide 19.9233 by the surface area of the tray, i.e., 162.7362. That gives us the thickness factor of 0.12243. That value might change slightly if a dry non-diastatic malt were used, or if a diastatic malt were intended. The numbers would have to be re-run in such a case. However, now that I have shown you how to do the math, hopefully you would be able to do the math yourself in such a case.

For those who are interested, I used the Google translator at http://translate.google.com/#it|en|. I selected Italian to English and entered the URL of the article at http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html into the translation box.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #330 on: January 27, 2011, 02:35:26 PM »
Peter,

I want to thank you for helping me try to get over my math phobia.  I donít know if I can ever get over seeing numbers and what to do with them.  For some reason my mind freezes even when I see something more complicated than basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division or something that can be simply figured out on a calculator.  I donít know what is the matter with my brain when it comes to math.  Maybe I have math dyslexia.  :-D

I will copy out your instructions on what to do the next time and see if I can figure this all out.  I want to be able to understand how to do all this, but it might take me awhile.  I hope you and other members can be patient with me.  I appreciate your lesson in math for a formula.  :)

Norma

Offline katieparla

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #331 on: January 27, 2011, 03:39:08 PM »
I took Bonci's pizza class in Rome recently and this is the pizza dough recipe we used:

1kg flour (types 0 or 1, aka buratto) Ė we used 90% white flour and 10% spelt flour
700g water - we actually all ended up using a bit more than this
40g extra virgin olive oil
20g sea salt
3.5g dry brewerís yeast - experienced bakers can substitute 100g sourdough starter

Bonci uses only Mulino Marino flour (easy enough to get in Italy; ive seen it in NYC at Eataly). If you cant use MM, he recommends organic, all-natural, stone-ground flour from a reputable mill. Im in the process of getting my other notes together and ill post a more complete report soon.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #332 on: January 27, 2011, 03:54:03 PM »
I took Bonci's pizza class in Rome recently and this is the pizza dough recipe we used:

1kg flour (types 0 or 1, aka buratto) Ė we used 90% white flour and 10% spelt flour
700g water - we actually all ended up using a bit more than this
40g extra virgin olive oil
20g sea salt
3.5g dry brewerís yeast - experienced bakers can substitute 100g sourdough starter

Bonci uses only Mulino Marino flour (easy enough to get in Italy; ive seen it in NYC at Eataly). If you cant use MM, he recommends organic, all-natural, stone-ground flour from a reputable mill. Im in the process of getting my other notes together and ill post a more complete report soon.


Welcome to the forum katieparla. Thanks very much for posting the recipe. I look forward to reading your complete report.

John

(edit: I thought your name looked familiar! http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/01/22/la-pizza-in-urbana-di-gabriele-bonci-il-partito-du-pilu-gozzovigli-da-tricolore-monti-a-roma/)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 04:02:06 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #333 on: January 27, 2011, 06:00:34 PM »
Epic fail. Tough bottom and a dense (although soft) crumb. Back to the drawing board. The only redeeming thing about this bake was that it tasted very good, and the new Paderno pans helped to cook the the pie evenly.

John


Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #334 on: January 27, 2011, 06:44:58 PM »
John,

Your recent attempt looks very good to me.  Your crumb does look light and your whole pie looks delicious!

Norma

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #335 on: January 27, 2011, 06:59:53 PM »
John:  Did you let the dough proof in the pan before baking it by any chance?

JLP
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #336 on: January 27, 2011, 07:02:53 PM »
John:  Did you let the dough proof in the pan before baking it by any chance?

JLP

Jose - No, baked immediately.

John

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #337 on: January 27, 2011, 11:55:06 PM »
I baked the recipe that Norma found for pizza in teglia, found here:

If anyone is interested, this one blog is where I got ideas of how to make pizza in teglia. 

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html

I used my caputo (w=350) flour for this pizza in teglia.

I converted the 4.5 grams of cake yeast to ADY (4.5 x .4117 = 1.85 grams ADY) The recipe said take 450g of flour and 450g of water with the yeast and it should double in 3 hours.  I had no such luck.  I did notice that this recipe called for half of the yeast that member 'katieparla' posted above.

Another issue that I have with the recipe is the thickness factor.  I measured the dough for each of the three pizzas i made to 19 oz. and stretched out the first one to 11.5" x 13.75".  I feel that this is to thin when compared to pictures that others have posted.  The crumb was very closed in comparison to when I reduced how far I streched out the dough.  For example I would say that the 19 oz portion of dough was much better when it only covered 8" x 13"  I'm not saying it wasn't any good when it was thinner, but the pictures will hopefully show the difference.

I cooked them in the home oven at 500*  10 minutes on bake and 5 minutes on broil.  The taste was fantastic.  I loved it much.  I got to use my new 6-n-1's from Escalon.  (Doctored with sugar, salt, and 3 shakes of McCormicks italian spice.)  Ground turkey was the meat.  This was better than good, it was nearly killer.

Since I don't mind showing my failures here goes with the thinner crumb pizzas.

This was some good stuff. 

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #338 on: January 27, 2011, 11:59:38 PM »
When that one came out, I didn't stretch the dough as thin and came up with this.

The last two pictures are the best and worst of the crumb structure I was able to accomplish.
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #339 on: January 28, 2011, 06:31:24 AM »
Epic fail. Tough bottom and a dense (although soft) crumb. Back to the drawing board. The only redeeming thing about this bake was that it tasted very good, and the new Paderno pans helped to cook the the pie evenly.

John

John,
This is a tough one to nail & it's hit & miss.  FWIW my starter batch last week was also an Epic Loss.  It was the 1st & last time I use Caputo Red for pizza in Teglia.  To me, the best mix is 85/15 Manitoba to Semola.  Keep at it bro!  Hopefully Katie can shed some light.
BTW: How are the pans?  Mine are still on backorder.

Matt

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #340 on: January 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM »
Jet_deck,

For your first attempt I think you did great!  :) Some of us have been trying for about a year to make a pizza like Pizzarium.  What kind of different taste in the crumb did you taste.  Your pizza does look airy.  Did you proof the dough at all?  Your crumb looks like it was springy.  Was it?  It makes me wonder since your dough didnít double in 3 hrs., if you would have left it rise longer, what kind of results you might have gotten.

Nice job.

Norma

Matt,

You are right, that this kind of pizza is a hard one to make.  I also hope Katie can shed some light on the easiest way to make this kind of pizza. 

Norma

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #341 on: January 28, 2011, 08:26:02 AM »
John,
This is a tough one to nail & it's hit & miss.  FWIW my starter batch last week was also an Epic Loss.  It was the 1st & last time I use Caputo Red for pizza in Teglia.  To me, the best mix is 85/15 Manitoba to Semola.  Keep at it bro!  Hopefully Katie can shed some light.
BTW: How are the pans?  Mine are still on backorder.

Matt

Matt - I don't have access to Manitoba flour, and quite frankly I still do not know what the equivalent flour is. I thought the 14% Ultimate Performer was it, but apparently not with the results I got. Or it could be my workflow needs a different direction.

On the pans, they made a huge difference in the bake. So much so that I think they do not need to be placed on the stone. The bottoms were very evenly overdone. I seasoned them by oiling and then baking at 375 for 30 minutes.

Norma - Thanks for the encouragement! I am still going to keep at it.

John



Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #343 on: January 28, 2011, 08:48:38 AM »
For anyone that might be interested,  I am learning how to navagiate the pizza.it forum.  Here is one post by Marco on making pizza in telgia.  He said one student of  Gabriel did a wonderful pan with Caputo Red and Manitoba. translated:

The pan pizza is the one that Gabriel ...

But in general it is normal to be full of water to cook the whole time, otherwise you bread ....

In Naples, a student of Gabriel did a wonderful pan with the red and Manitoba ....

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=37210

Another post by Marco.  http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=37194

Translated for anyone that canít read Italian.

Surely everyone can 'do as he wishes, but we clarify a little bit of trivia ....

First of all, if a mill study uses two types of flour for two opposite and instead advice you to reverse, we should begin to take some questions.

The focaccia and pizza in a pan to be made with higher inpasti hydrated, often with double dough, cha need strong flour and / or who have very strong long maturation, and should seek to maintain a gluten that "holds". 

Then explain the theory that with a little flour with baking powder is necessary to use more force ... (And please note here is that the enzymatic activity of the flour that is added with the yeast ...) If I use a stronger flour for pizza I do (see photo) and do not change jobs, I find myself with a gummy pasta and / or closed, perhaps even a little difficult to cut ....

Do you remember the pictures of the eaves of Cyrus made with 100% Barilla??

Pixior one reply to Marco, translated

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=37138

Hello Mark,

The focaccia and pizza in a pan of flour do not need power because 'the dough to rise and remains stationary when fired and is' more than most of the rise without having to' handle. You can use a higher dose of yeast and thus shorten the time.
For the pizza paddle in hand, and 'better to work with long maturity and with a little yeast. In this way you get the best results Paving and cooking (cornice & co.).

For long rising yeast and with little 'need to use flour with a little' more 'strength. So for me the Red and 'perfect.


... (And please note here is that the enzymatic activity of the flour that is added with the yeast ...) If I use a stronger flour for pizza I do (see photo) and do not change jobs, I find myself with a gummy pasta and / or closed, perhaps even a little difficult to cut ....

This post is by gabriele translated:

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=2916

Message:
And what did you cut it with the strong?
To the pan, since the absorption and the fear of starting a season in qty poolisch who do you recommend?
I thought of a 50% in the red W360
             20% Manitoba
             30% PIZZASOIA

You say, good or bad knowing a little wheat flour believe the two to reach a trance. to an absorption of 1150/1200 in 1000 of H2o

you say?

cazzeggiano?
preovo?

hello gabriele

another post by gabriele translated:

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=2933

but but but .... organoleptic analysis .... it is known in the finished product ... and tell me a little stefano .. As if to make the swords?
then there is only soy lecithin, no soy meal (which I do not know it) and no soy flour ...
Cost? You have the list?
Are you using Spadoni?
Not me gusta hang with the white, just maybe a mixture of semolina and large cuts regrind, white makes the jelly ... better a little wet and released it just a little spring that I throw around ... as to whether in fact they are not to start you had a little tolerance for a product such as me knows that I am not na lira ...
Spadoni only know the line from the supermarket.
Give me the site address where you copied the card?

Does this post mean that soy lecithin might be used in Gabrieleís dough?

Another post by Gabriele translated:

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=2942

.. Well, I use the pan to spread the flour, only the edges and anoint his hands better not, otherwise "tigers" where the oil is imprinted.

Spy on the loaf on the counter until they surrender a bit of force pushing outward (edges) with 3 fingers and press into the dough to bring the beading cabbage, step on the pan, I prefer a 60x40 steel blue food and putting their fingers in the dough the port to the edge of the pan only half working slowly, helping to relax the dough without pulling it, then maybe a dunk before the season I give ... So they taught me, and I tried everything to ungerrmi hands, wet, apply without flour, less flour, but the result is good, without fault gave it to me this method.
Very nice, seems to pull a tissue.
This is why I asked the Spolverini ...
I thought it was a particular cut of good meal.

Does this post mean the dough is proofed after putting the dough in the pan?

I donít know if any of these posts help.  If anyone want me to keep looking, let me know.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 08:50:38 AM by norma427 »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #344 on: January 28, 2011, 09:13:30 AM »
Jet_deck,

For your first attempt I think you did great!  Norma


Thank you Norma.  I consider it another work in progress.   The pizza with the most open crumb was springy.  I think the salt and the oil were what made it taste so good.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #345 on: January 28, 2011, 09:42:27 AM »
There is an article on Slice by Adam Kuban, this morning on Pizza Roma in NY.  The articles show pictures of the dough.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/greenwich-village-pizza-roma-roman-style-pizza-manhattan-nyc.html#continued

Norma

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #346 on: January 28, 2011, 10:39:31 AM »
There is an article on Slice by Adam Kuban, this morning on Pizza Roma in NY.  The articles show pictures of the dough.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/greenwich-village-pizza-roma-roman-style-pizza-manhattan-nyc.html#continued

Norma

Funny - That pie and crumb look almost exact to my failed attempt posted yesterday.

John

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #347 on: January 28, 2011, 04:22:10 PM »
John,

Well, failed might be a bit strong!  Like your recent pie, the Pizza Roma pie seems to a denser crumb.  I wonder if that is typical for their place.  Their dough certainly looks pretty hydrated. Maybe 96 hrs is too long and the gluten looses it.  I'm liking 85% HR or so. On the other hand, isn't the "Gabriel" recipe like 70% HR.  That dough certainly looks easier to deal with.

Do you like your blue steel pans? Does one need to cure them somehow like cast iron?

Paul

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #348 on: January 28, 2011, 06:07:31 PM »
Could someone tell me what the green things are on top of this pizza in teglia?  Dried Celery spines? Probably not.  Thanks in advance.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg28913.html#msg28913

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #349 on: January 28, 2011, 06:09:24 PM »
Could someone tell me what the green things are on top of this pizza in teglia?  Dried Celery spines? Probably not.  Thanks in advance.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg28913.html#msg28913



Rosemary