Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 169130 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #350 on: January 29, 2011, 08:12:55 AM »
John,

Well, failed might be a bit strong!  Like your recent pie, the Pizza Roma pie seems to a denser crumb.  I wonder if that is typical for their place.  Their dough certainly looks pretty hydrated. Maybe 96 hrs is too long and the gluten looses it.  I'm liking 85% HR or so. On the other hand, isn't the "Gabriel" recipe like 70% HR.  That dough certainly looks easier to deal with.

Do you like your blue steel pans? Does one need to cure them somehow like cast iron?

Paul

Paul - I believe that the 70% hydration used in the class recipe is lower than the production pizza so people can handle the dough. On the pans, they are really great. I am doing another bake on Sunday, so I will do a separate thread on their performance with pics.

John


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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #351 on: January 29, 2011, 10:59:49 PM »
I did reheat a slice of the recent pizza I had made Tuesday on Thursday.  I also wanted to see how long the remainder of slices would still stay springy, so I reheated some this evening.  The slices still taste good after 4 days.  I wanted to take a video of how springy the slices were on Tuesday, but I forgot.  Tonight I took a video of how the slices are still springy, if anyone is interested.



Two pictures of slices I reheated, one torn apart.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 11:04:49 PM by norma427 »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #352 on: January 30, 2011, 07:37:33 PM »
Finally getting somewhere!

John

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #353 on: January 30, 2011, 07:44:21 PM »
Awe-inspiring. Did you do anything differently from the last one?

JLP
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #354 on: January 30, 2011, 07:50:32 PM »
Awe-inspiring. Did you do anything differently from the last one?

JLP

Jose - I flip-flopped the flour ratio: 75% Golden Haven, 25% Ultimate Performer.

John

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #355 on: January 30, 2011, 08:44:02 PM »
John,

All of those look wonderful!  Great job.

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #356 on: January 30, 2011, 09:23:17 PM »
Nice work John.   :chef:

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #357 on: February 01, 2011, 07:26:19 AM »
From the post Toby (foolishpoolish) did before: http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/making-pizza-dough-with-gabriele-bonci.html     the videos show how to open dough and grease pans for pizza in teglia, although it says in these videos (in Italian and English) that Gabriele doesnít grease his pans in the bakery.





For anyone that is interested a video about making focaccia from the same channel on YouTube.

Focaccia di Recco

It is interesting to me how thin the dough is and how easily the dough can be stretched.



Another video of Gabriele Bonci making bread.

Gabriele Bonci (Pizzarium) Making Bread



Norma

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #358 on: February 01, 2011, 09:03:52 AM »
Your last pies look great John!


Offline malvanova

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #359 on: February 01, 2011, 12:26:32 PM »
 John I'm coming over where do you live,,,, I'm droolling over HERE!!!!!!!!   :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef:

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #360 on: February 01, 2011, 08:23:24 PM »
I made another attempt at a Pizzarium-style tonight.  I had started the dough on Sunday and the things I changed were I used the poolish from my Lehmann dough and cake yeast in the final dough.  I also used 80% KASL and 20% Farina ď00" for the flours.  I used the same TF as I did before.  This pie was dressed with crushed LA Valle San Marzano peeled tomatoes, mozzarella, caramelized onions, Italian seasonings, green and red peppers and grape tomatoes .

What I canít understand about this attempt is although I used the same TF in the formula, why the crust got thicker after the bake than my last attempt.  I can post the formula I used. Does anyone know why the thickness would have been different? I also have other pictures if anyone is interested in seeing them. 

Pictures below

Norma

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #361 on: February 01, 2011, 10:48:56 PM »
Magnificent. I'd be very interested to see the formula, bake time/temp, and some more pics.

JLP
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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #362 on: February 01, 2011, 11:12:42 PM »
Magnificent. I'd be very interested to see the formula, bake time/temp, and some more pics.

JLP

Jose,

Thanks for thinking this attempt looked good.  :) I used my home oven and the temperature was 500 degrees F.  I baked on my pizza stone in the steel pan. I didnít proof this dough at all after I placed it into the steel pan. The bake time was about 14 minutes.  I first dressed the pie with only the tomato sauce and after it was baked I added the other dressings and put it back into the oven again for a few minutes so the mozzarella would melt.  The other dressings were already ready.  If you have any other questions, just ask.  I used a different blend of flours and also a different way to leaven this dough to see what would happen. 

I still canít figure out why this crust did seem to be thicker.

Other pictures and formula.

Norma

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #363 on: February 01, 2011, 11:15:43 PM »
continued other pictures

Norma
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 11:21:19 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #364 on: February 01, 2011, 11:17:45 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #365 on: February 01, 2011, 11:18:57 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

parallei

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #366 on: February 01, 2011, 11:23:29 PM »
Hey Norma.  Nice pies :chef:  And thanks for posting the various links.  I've been enjoying them.


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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #367 on: February 01, 2011, 11:26:19 PM »
Hey Norma.  Nice pies :chef:  And thanks for posting the various links.  I've been enjoying them.

parallei,

Thanks for saying the pie was nice.  :) I don't know, but think those links do really help in understand how to make a Pizzarium pie.  At least they helped me and I even used different flours this time and a different way to leaven the dough.  :-D

Norma

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #368 on: February 02, 2011, 12:01:43 AM »

I still canít figure out why this crust did seem to be thicker.

I can't speak for leavening methods and flours that I've never tried- but could it be to some extent because you didn't proof it in the pan? No pan-proofing=bigger bubbles=greater thickness?

JLP
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #369 on: February 02, 2011, 05:18:18 AM »
Norma - I think you have a winning recipe! Did you do the same hand mix/fold/fermentation regimen?

John

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #370 on: February 02, 2011, 06:36:34 AM »
I can't speak for leavening methods and flours that I've never tried- but could it be to some extent because you didn't proof it in the pan? No pan-proofing=bigger bubbles=greater thickness?

JLP

Jose,

From the one blog that was referenced before there is another post, that I donít know if you saw or not.  The blogger siad Gabriele Bonci was like an artist-behind-the-pizza.  The blogger said she learned how to make and bake the dough.  This is part of that post. We learned to  mix, lay it out in the pan, and either leave it bianca - drizzled with a bit of oil and salt - or rosso, with just some pelati on top. In Bonciís world, you do this first: prime the canvas, then start layering on the tastes only AFTER youíve baked it.  Did you hear that? No piling on of cheeses, vegetables and meats until the pizza is completely cooked. Remember, this is Pizza al Taglio we are talking about, not small round, single serving sized pizzas. 

So the procedure is as follows.
Make dough.
Let rise.
Lay dough in pan.
Drizzle with oil, or top with a very thin layer of tomatoes.*
Bake.
Let cool slightly.
Top!

And the added extra-cool bonus of this method? You can bake the crusts ahead of time, and finish them off at the last minute for your pizza party. Makes you want to try this at home, right?

Isnít that what you are looking for Jose, a crust that can be made ahead of time and then dressed later?

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/pizza-as-canvas-creating-toppings-with.html

This is where you can let your imagination run wild. But even Bonci has some rules. For instance, never more than three toppings. ďThatís a balanced pizza,Ē he says, ďAnything more would be too much.Ē

That post from the blogger, got me thinking there is no need for a proof like I did before.  The blogger just made that post last Tuesday, after I had made the other attempt at market.   

To me, this dough reminds me of a Tartine Bread dough.  They both act the same in my opinion. Does anyone else that has tried this kind of dough have the same opinions? The dough is highly hydrated and needs stretch and folds to become manageable and form a better gluten-structure.  If you watch the one video I referenced before, you can see how  Gabriele stretches out the dough, by pressing on the rim and forming more bubbles in the middle, by lightly pressing with his fingers on the dough.  In my opinion the dough has to be made right to get the bubbles in the finished crust.  Anyone else that is trying to make this kind of pizza have the same opinions as I do?  If not, could they please share with me what your opinions are in trying to make this dough.

Norma

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #371 on: February 02, 2011, 07:07:58 AM »
Norma - I think you have a winning recipe! Did you do the same hand mix/fold/fermentation regimen?

John


John,

I was pleased with the recent results, but donít think I am there yet.  Your latest Pizzarium pie looked a lot lighter than my recent attempt.   

I was playing around with the Tartine bread in the last day also and I found by using a lower protein flour, I got a much lighter crumb.  Although my crumb wasnít exactly right on the Tartine Bread, I was amazed at how light the crumb was.  When I took a taste of a slice, it almost melted in my mouth.  This is a link to the bread I made last evening.  I didnít wait to cut my Tartine bread until it was cool, so the real crumb didnít show.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg125507.html#msg125507

Do you also think a lower protein flour might make this kind of pizza lighter in the crumb?  What kind of protein did your flour have in your mix?  I have another batch fermenting in the refrigerator, with a lower protein content to try later today.  I made that batch on Monday evening.  I want to see if a lower protein flour can make a difference in how light the crumb is.  I donít know if I will be able to get any decent comparison, because I am going to try to make a smaller attempt in another kind of pan that isnít steel.  Who knows how that attempt will go.  It is just an experiment.

At some point I do want to try this flour like is used at Pizzarium.  It is expensive, but I just want to see if the flour does make the difference in the crumb.  Do you know which one of these flours would be the kind Pizzarium uses?

http://www.formaggiokitchen.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=mulino+marino

I gave this recent dough many stretch and folds, the same way I made the Tartine bread dough.  I would have thought all the stretch and folds would have made a denser crust, but that wasnít what happened, when I used a lower protein flour with the Tartine bread.  What thoughts do you have on this.  I also really gave the dough a long mix time in my Kitchen Aid mixer with using the method of slowly adding the flour and then giving the dough an autolyse before adding the salt and oil.  My total mix time was 30 minutes for this last attempt and my Tartine Bread attempt.  I donít know, but so far, think either of these highly hydrated doughs are hard to ruin.  I didnít count how many stretch and folds I gave this recent dough, but it was a lot. 

Do you mind sharing all what went into your recent Pizzarium master pieces?  Yours looked spot on.  ;D You crumb looked lighter than mine.  What was your total mix time and did you also use stretch and folds and how many? Also what was your TF?  I would be interested in hearing how you went about the process of making your dough.  Anything you remember about your recent attempt would be helpful.

Norma

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #372 on: February 02, 2011, 07:46:20 AM »

Do you mind sharing all what went into your recent Pizzarium master pieces?

Norma - Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Truthfully, I am still perplexed on what the "correct" flour for this type of pizza should be. I had great results with a very weak flour supplemented with HG. You had stellar results with Durum, which is a strong flour, and similar results with KASL. Matthew does this in his sleep with Manitoba, and Jose uses super strong canadian flours. Gabrielle Bonci uses what I assume is high protein flour for his production at Pizzarium, but teaches a class with a medium protein flour and treats it like bread (minimal folds, and no mixer). BTW, the Marino flour he used in the class is Burrata, which is not listed on that website link you posted.

After obsessing about this for the last few weeks, buying the Suas book, reading everything Didier Rosada wrote on the internet, and trying out many different approaches, here is what I taking away with pizza in teglia:

1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.

I would love to hear other's thoughts on the flour topic.

Here is the formula for my latest effort:

Flour (100%):    1504.91 g  |  53.08 oz | 3.32 lbs (75% Organic Golden Haven [11.5% P], 25% Ultimate Performer [14% P] - both Giusto's)
Water (80%):    1203.92 g  |  42.47 oz | 2.65 lbs
CY (1%):       15.05 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | PLUS two tablespoons of starter for added acidity during ferment
Salt (2.5%):    37.62 g | 1.33 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
Oil (3%):       45.15 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.03 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   2806.65 g | 99 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = 0.15 (pan size 15" x 11")
Single Ball:      701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs

80% of water, flour, yeast, oil, mixed until combined, autolyse for 40 minutes. Salt and rest of water squeezed in. Six turns over 2 hours. 48 hours refrigerated. Balled and proofed for 4 hours before bake. Rosso for 2 and just olive oil on the other two, baked for 12 minutes (in my new pans!). Topped, baked for another 8-10 minutes.

John
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 07:48:34 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #373 on: February 02, 2011, 08:22:52 AM »
Norma - as far as pizzarium dough reminding you of Tartine bread dough.  I would have to agree.  If we increase the hydration ratio and added oil to the Tartine bread dough, we have pizzarium dough.   If you compare the 2 crumb structures, they can be similar.  I see the pizzarium's crumb structure closer to something inbetween a  tartine crumb and a ciabatta crumb.   Something closer to a ciabatta crumb but not quite as aerated.  IMO, dough is dough.  There are wet doughs and dry doughs.  They are all made with the same foundational knowledge & ingredients and then take off into their own specialties.  They are made & handled uniquely and thus give unique finishing characteristics but the same foundation is there. 

As far as lower protein flours producing lighter crumbs, I absolutely agree.  It makes sense b/c there is relatively less protein to chew on.  :-D  Aside from that I have found the same in my kitchen.  I can make very light, lofty, airy crumbs with caputo 00 flour and I can do the same with HG bromated flours.  BUT if you place both products side by side, then the lower protein flour has the edge. 

Here is the one of the comparison's I did between 00 and HG flour.  Reply #1-#4
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.0.html
Here the HG bread was lighter!  WHAT?  ???  WHY? I didn't maximize the caputo's potential in that bake.

Here is another caputo 00 and HG flour comparison where the caputo won out. 
Reply #21-#23
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html
This is where I got the hydration, kneading, fermentation, & bake all balanced out well.  Both were excellent but the lower protein flour pie was lighter.  But again, you can make a nearly identical pie in lightness using anyflour.

Here is the lightest loaf of bread I have made so far using mostly All Trumps HG bromated flour.  Same thread, reply #80
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.80.html



1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.


John, I absolutely agree with your statements here.   The masters, over time have learned how to use the ingredients and tools they have to get the most they can out of what they have.   By using what we have available to us, I believe that the pizzarium crumb can be made using almost any flour as long as one makes the necessary adjustments to the hydration, gluten development, fermentation, handling, and bake.  I wish I had more time to play around with this dough/crumb.  I have been far too busy with my own pizza and bread experiments though.  Looks like you all are having a lot of fun and making great progress.  I guess the trick is to be able to make a consistent product that you are happy with.

I told a friend on the phone last night that most pizza operators would be well satisfied to serve the kind of pizzas you guys and gals are making here.  We here on the forum are a more particular bunch than that.  Not satisfied with just mediocrity and the taste alone, but it must be visually satisfying as well.  Good luck gang. 8)

Chau
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 08:26:25 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #374 on: February 02, 2011, 08:25:48 AM »
John,
You're right on buddy.  As far as flours go, alot of places likely use a Pizza in teglia mix which seems to be comprised of soft wheat type 0, semola di grano duro, sourdough & soya lecithin.

Matt

(Edit) I forgot to mention; The flour that I use is on average only 12.5% protein
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 08:34:04 AM by Matthew »


 

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