Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 160747 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #375 on: February 02, 2011, 08:33:30 AM »
Norma - Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Truthfully, I am still perplexed on what the "correct" flour for this type of pizza should be. I had great results with a very weak flour supplemented with HG. You had stellar results with Durum, which is a strong flour, and similar results with KASL. Matthew does this in his sleep with Manitoba, and Jose uses super strong canadian flours. Gabrielle Bonci uses what I assume is high protein flour for his production at Pizzarium, but teaches a class with a medium protein flour and treats it like bread (minimal folds, and no mixer). BTW, the Marino flour he used in the class is Burrata, which is not listed on that website link you posted.

After obsessing about this for the last few weeks, buying the Suas book, reading everything Didier Rosada wrote on the internet, and trying out many different approaches, here is what I taking away with pizza in teglia:

1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.

I would love to hear other's thoughts on the flour topic.

Here is the formula for my latest effort:

Flour (100%):    1504.91 g  |  53.08 oz | 3.32 lbs (75% Organic Golden Haven [11.5% P], 25% Ultimate Performer [14% P] - both Giusto's)
Water (80%):    1203.92 g  |  42.47 oz | 2.65 lbs
CY (1%):       15.05 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | PLUS two tablespoons of starter for added acidity during ferment
Salt (2.5%):    37.62 g | 1.33 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
Oil (3%):       45.15 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.03 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   2806.65 g | 99 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = 0.15 (pan size 15" x 11")
Single Ball:      701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs

80% of water, flour, yeast, oil, mixed until combined, autolyse for 40 minutes. Salt and rest of water squeezed in. Six turns over 2 hours. 48 hours refrigerated. Balled and proofed for 4 hours before bake. Rosso for 2 and just olive oil on the other two, baked for 12 minutes (in my new pans!). Topped, baked for another 8-10 minutes.

John

John,

Thank you also for your very detailed reply.  I am also perplexed at what kind of flours to try.  I really liked the results with Durum flour and Caputo, but think I still might get better results with more experiments.  This style of pizza is hard, in my opinion.  I can understand the classes Gabrielle Bonci teaches to make pizza in teglia, probably isnít the real way he uses to make his pizza in teglia.  He is a bread baker, so he is much more advanced in understanding all this than I am.  I can understand how this kind of pizza and bread are related.  I have also read many teachings of Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel and am trying to put all their teachings in what I am trying to do.  I think I have to pull all up what I have learned so far in trying to make pizza in teglia You are more advance in pizza making and bread making than I am, so I value your opinions.   

I agree the Italian flour and any flours we might try, still arenít going to be the same, but I believe there must be some way to get about the same results.  I also am still trying to tailor my workflow to suit other flours. 

Your addition of starter added for increase acidity is interesting.  Thanks for giving your formula.

I also would like to know other members opinions on what I might be doing wrong or even on flours. 

I hope to get some real blue steel pans to try someday.  Your blue steel pans really seem to work well.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #376 on: February 02, 2011, 08:57:16 AM »
Chau,

I appreciate your opinions on how this Pizzarium dough is like the Tartine Bread dough without the oil.  I could see from my last few experiments just how similar they are.  I also agree that the same foundation is used, (for bread and pizza)  in handling flour and workflow, there can be different results.  I am now leaning towards a lower protein flour to try.  I will see how my results turn out later today with a lower protein flour. 

I also appreciate all your experiments.  :) They have all helped me understand how different flours, hydration and other things happen with dough. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #377 on: February 02, 2011, 01:06:29 PM »
Sorry, but I made a mistake in posting the formula I used in last nights bake at Reply 362 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125523.html#msg125523

That is the formula I am using for todayís attempt. The formula I used for last nights bake is at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387 and I used durum flour 80% and Farnia ď00" flour 20% in the mix.  After I went over my notes later this morning I saw where I made the mistake.   I had too many experiments going at once and posted wrong on what I used.   :-D

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #378 on: February 02, 2011, 03:20:37 PM »
The idea of doing this with a lower-protein flour is intriguing. I have easy, supermarket access to an organic, unbleached, locally-milled French T55-grade flour, which is within the range of Italian Tipo 0 or American AP. This particular brand (Milanaise) is supposed to be of extremely high quality and has a cult following among the makers of artisanal baguettes across this continent. Baguettes, of course, aren't the same thing as pizza, but on the other hand this guy got a result with this flour that's highly suggestive for purposes of this thread: http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477. I may have to score a bag of this stuff soon.

JLP
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #379 on: February 02, 2011, 03:58:16 PM »
The idea of doing this with a lower-protein flour is intriguing. I have easy, supermarket access to an organic, unbleached, locally-milled French T55-grade flour, which is within the range of Italian Tipo 0 or American AP. This particular brand (Milanaise) is supposed to be of extremely high quality and has a cult following among the makers of artisanal baguettes across this continent. Baguettes, of course, aren't the same thing as pizza, but on the other hand this guy got a result with this flour that's highly suggestive for purposes of this thread: http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477. I may have to score a bag of this stuff soon.

JLP

Jose,

I donít know what kind of results you will get using Milanaise flour, but it might be an interesting experiment to try.  You might need to do longer mixing or more stretch and folds if you decide to use a high hydration dough, if using a lower protein flour.  I am not sure about this, but just thinking about the results I had recently.  The link you referenced does look like that man is getting great results from that flour. 

Best of luck if you decide to experiment with the new flour. 

Norma
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #380 on: February 02, 2011, 05:04:38 PM »
Quote
You might need to do longer mixing or more stretch and folds if you decide to use a high hydration dough, if using a lower protein flour.  I am not sure about this, but just thinking about the results I had recently.  The link you referenced does look like that man is getting great results from that flour. 

Best of luck if you decide to experiment with the new flour. 

Norma

Very true on the need for attention to gluten development with that flour, as Norma pointed out. Notice that in the directions for that recipe, he uses the slap and fold technique upwards of 200 times to develop the crumb you see in the baguettes. If you added a percentage of high gluten flour, you would obviously not need that much. He also only does a 24 hour ferment. If you do a 48 hour one, all the better for gluten. I am also eager to see your results using this flour.

John
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 06:09:23 PM by dellavecchia »

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #381 on: February 02, 2011, 05:26:31 PM »
I'm still thinking that the AP fllour can do O.K.   I keep thinking back to my attempts at no-knead pizza bianca.  All AP flour and it just sits for 8 or 9 ours with one or two flods at the end of that period.  Who knows, not me......

Offline doughboy55

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #382 on: February 02, 2011, 06:14:42 PM »
Very true on the need for attention to gluten development with that flour, as Norma pointed out. Notice that in the directions for that recipe, he uses the slap and fold technique upwards of 200 times to develop the crumb you see in the baguettes. If you added a percentage of high gluten flour, you would obviously not need that much. He also only does a 24 hour ferment. If you do a 48 hour one, all the better for gluten. I am also eager to see your results using this flour.

John
I currently am using KAAP flour and KA organic high gluten flour (14%P), should i follow the instructions you gave me earlier or should i adjust anything for this flour?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #383 on: February 02, 2011, 06:15:55 PM »
I currently am using KAAP flour and KA organic high gluten flour (14%P), should i follow the instructions you gave me earlier or should i adjust anything for this flour?

No need to adjust the directions I gave you.

John


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #384 on: February 02, 2011, 06:18:06 PM »
I'm still thinking that the AP fllour can do O.K.   I keep thinking back to my attempts at no-knead pizza bianca.  All AP flour and it just sits for 8 or 9 ours with one or two flods at the end of that period.  Who knows, not me......

AP works great - I did a similar same-day test earlier in the thread using 20% starter. Your bianca looks better though.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #385 on: February 02, 2011, 10:13:20 PM »
This was my next attempt this evening.  I was away, and when I came home the dough sitting on my kitchen table looked like it was too soft (or relaxed), so I gave it another stretch and fold and let it sit another hour.  I donít think I left the dough relax enough after the stretch and fold, because I was in a hurry. I wanted to see what would happen with this dough if I left it proof after having it in the deep-dish non steel pan.  I left the dough proof with olive oil on the skin for 45 minutes, with a towel.  This pie did rise well while in the oven and stayed that way after I took it out of the oven, but I wanted to get this pie finished so I quickly dressed it.  I think I should have waited a little while before I dressed it, but I am not sure of that.  I then put the pie back into the oven until the cheese was melted.

Although this pie did taste good, I am still not satisfied with how this compares to the pie I had made at market before.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #386 on: February 02, 2011, 10:15:14 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #387 on: February 03, 2011, 10:09:55 AM »
Norma: Nice looking slices there. What was the difference between them and what you baked at market last week?

JLP

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #388 on: February 03, 2011, 11:33:21 AM »
Norma: Nice looking slices there. What was the difference between them and what you baked at market last week?

JLP



Jose,

The crumb of this pizza wasnít as light as the crumb at market.  The slices at market were much lighter and there was a better crumb structure.  I am still trying to decide what flours to use for another attempt.  I might try Better for Bread flour in combination with either durum or some kind of Caputo.  If anyone thinks this would be a decent approach for my next attempt, let me know.  I did get good results with using Better for Bread flour in my Tartine bread.  The crumb was really light and the slices of bread almost melted in my mouth when eaten. 

As anyone can see by the pictures the pie did rise well in the oven, but when I cut it, there wasnít as much crumb structure as I thought there would be.  I still donít know if I hadnít given the dough ball  another stretch and fold if maybe there would have been a lighter crumb.  The dough felt very light and airy before I gave it another stretch and fold.

Norma
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #389 on: February 03, 2011, 12:46:36 PM »
I dug up and translated a few posts from Massimo of Pizzeria Bosco which I think are highly relevant here. If any Italian-speakers see any blatant errors in my trans. please advise ASAP.

"[C]on lievitazione in teglia, cioŤ con ancora produzione di anidride carbonica in teglia, non si puo' dire "alla Romana", che prevede la stesura in teglia, e la sua cottura, senza aspettare la lievitazione, perchŤ semplicemente, Ť giŗ fatta".

With a pan rise, i.e. with further production of co2 gas in the pan, it can't be said to be "alla Romana", which latter calls for forming it in the pan, and then baking it, without waiting for it to rise, since quite simply, it's already done.

Non puoi chiamare teglia alla Romana, una pasta che fai lievitare in teglia. Sarŗ una pizza alla teglia, ma non alla Romana, sono due tecniche diverse".

You can't call it teglia alla Romana if the dough is risen in the pan. It would be a pizza alla teglia, but not alla Romana, those are two different techniques.

"Per esempio la focaccia pugliese, o la genovese, Ť una pasta lievitata, o meglio, finisce di lievitare in teglia, e non ha certo gli alveoli che vedi nella mia pizza, che Ť lavorazione alla romana, con idratazioni anche al 90-95%".

For example focaccia Pugliese, or Genovese, is a dough that is risen, or better yet, finishes rising in the pan, and certainly doesn't have the alveoles you see on my pizza, which is made the Roman way, even at 90-95% hydration.

"[C]he con una lievitazione in teglia, gli alveoli come quelli che vedi nelle mie foto, non ti escono, e anche il prodotto fini quindi sarŗ diverso. Con lavorazione alla romana, il prodotto ha una conservazione migliore e piu' lunga, la puoi riscaldare anche dopo 6 ore, e torna come appena fatta, rimane morbida sopra e con un leggero velo croccante sotto".

With a pan-rise, you won't get the sort of alveoles you see in my pics, and furthermore the end result will be different. With the Roman method, the result keeps better and for longer, it can be reheated after 6 hours, and it will be just like it was when it was first made, remaining soft on the top and with a light crispy layer on the bottom.



« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 01:04:27 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #390 on: February 03, 2011, 01:13:20 PM »
Jose - Thank you for posting these quotes. Very informative.

And Matt - Thanks for posting the pizza in teglia mix ingredients awhile back. Where did you find that info?

Norma - I am also trying a "bread flour" recipe this weekend. I am doing 75% KABF and 25% Ultimate Performer high gluten. Let's compare notes after the bake if you decide to use Better for Bread in combination with Durum.

John
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 01:15:51 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #391 on: February 03, 2011, 05:05:24 PM »
And Matt - Thanks for posting the pizza in teglia mix ingredients awhile back. Where did you find that info?


No problem John.  I read it from the pizza.it forum a while back.

Matt


Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #392 on: February 03, 2011, 05:11:22 PM »
Jose,

I also want to thank you for the information. 

John,

Thanks for posting what you are going to try this weekend.  I donít think I am going to try and make anymore dough until Sunday, because I have too many slices leftover (also from another pizza I made).  I did give some away, but I am only one person trying to eat the other slices.  I hope your bake and formula go well.  If you want to, we can compare our bakes if I get to go to market Tuesday.  It is supposed to snow again and I would really like to try out my deck oven, where I got better results.  What temperature are you baking?  I did decide to try Better for Bread flour in combination with durum flour.  I donít know if I am going to use a poolish or just use CY.  Hopefully soon I will be able to get a blue steel pan.

Matt,

Thanks, too!

Norma
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Offline Elizabeth Minchilli

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #393 on: February 04, 2011, 03:06:12 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.


Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #394 on: February 04, 2011, 05:37:26 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.



Elizabeth,
Welcome to the forum!  I have read your posts & they are fantastic & very helpful.  As you can see, a few of us have been trying to duplicate the master Gabriele's creations & it has been hit & miss.  I toally agree that handling is key to the end result.  I have personally studied it in great depth & I'm pretty sure that I have it down pat.  My biggest confusion is the flour.  I have tried many combinations using Caputo Red, Caputo Blue, Hard Spring Wheat, Semola, etc but have yet to achieve the "perfect blend".  My next attempt will be using grano tenero (soft wheat) & semola rimacinata di grano duro.  I'm thinking of a 75/25 blend.  What do you think & or recommend?  Any insight will be extremely helpful.

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #395 on: February 04, 2011, 06:47:03 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread.

Elizabeth - I am so glad you made it over here and decided to participate. In my email, I had asked about crumb shots from your class - feel free to post them here so everyone has a chance to see. Again, welcome.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #396 on: February 04, 2011, 07:28:33 AM »
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.



Elizabeth,

I am also glad to see you on the forum.  Welcome!  I enjoy your blog and how you detailed everything you learned while taking classes from  Gabriele Bonci.  :) You have a wealth of knowledge.  Have you tried to make pizza in teglia, since you took the classes?  I also would be interested in knowing what kinds of flours to try. 

I also have been trying different attempts to make pizza in teglia, with many different results.

This is your blog.   http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/

After you have five posts, I think you can post links.  I did post on your blog as learning pizza maker.

Norma
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Offline Elizabeth Minchilli

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #397 on: February 04, 2011, 08:49:56 AM »
I will try to post more on flours used in the next few days. I know that we used all flours from Mulino Marino, but have to look at my notes to see exactly which ones. The most important thing, according to Bonci is the flours, and that they be organic, freshly milled. I'll be back with much more specific info.

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #398 on: February 04, 2011, 10:30:11 AM »
Hi Elizabeth! It's beyond delightful that somebody with first-hand knowledge of the subject found this thread, and anything you would care to contribute will be deeply appreciated. Pizza in teglia alla Romana is an obscure topic in North America to say the very least, but interest is growing and progress in understanding the style is being made (as you can see in this thread through its 20-something sprawling pages). Mind you, most of that progress has come from a combination of studying pictures, reading badly-translated Italian-language blogs and forum posts, guesswork, and above all experimentation; I've never even been to Pizzarium  :-[ . Once again, I really look forward to learning from your direct experience and contacts. If you have any questions about navigating the comments or anything else just ask.

JLP
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 10:32:04 AM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #399 on: February 04, 2011, 01:58:52 PM »
In light of John and Norma's remarks above, I decided to put off the baguette flour experiment for a while on the grounds that I probably don't have enough technique yet to make the most of a lower-protein flour. So I decided I'd try a dough with 100% of my normal, higher protein AP instead. 88% hydration, .3% IDY, 2% salt, 4% oil. Then I figured I'd try to make it entirely by hand with no machine assistance. Oh yeah, that was a much better idea than my original plan ::). Out of one frying pan, into another, much bigger one... :-[

I mixed it into a mass, dumped it onto the board, and tried some slap-and-folds. So far, so good. Then I noticed a lot was sticking to the board, so I picked it up and did some stretch-and-folds between my hands. Pretty soon, the stuff was firmly stuck to my hands, much like the giant spider-web in some 50s-era horror movie. I kept on going, and eventually got something that could pried off my hands and placed on the bench, albeit at the cost of mashing in more bench flour than I wanted as well as additional oil. I then did a few stretch and folds, and some push-and-folds (the latter because I wanted to re-incorporate the considerable amount of dough that had stuck to my hands). I left the ball alone for 20 minutes, did less than 3 minutes worth of push-and-folds, left it another 20, and did less than 1 minute of the same. By now, it was a very nice, smooth ball, but it seemed kind of "tight" and I hope I didn't overdo things. In any case, it is now in the fridge where it's going to spend 48 hours.

JLP 
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