Author Topic: Pizzarium (Read 94060 times)

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #420 on:** February 06, 2011, 05:16:16 PM »

Really nice John, hope they reheat well.

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #421 on:** February 06, 2011, 05:36:08 PM »

My own effort for today was a washout. I knew something was wrong when, during the course of forming it, I noticed that the dough seemed oddly stiff even though it had good extensibility. Baked at 450 for 19 minutes, the finished pie had a so-so crumb, a hard and crunchy bottom and cornicone (notwithstanding over 4% oil in the dough), and an unappealing, cardboardy flavour. Worst pizza in teglia ever- right down to the sauce, which tasted like ketchup

.

Oh well- looking forward to next week's...

JLP

dellavecchia · « **Reply #422 on:** February 06, 2011, 06:13:58 PM »

Jose - I know that frustration. But your crumb look really good, though.

So the bottoms got a little too crunchy for my tastes, and the pie with 75% KABF lost a little of it's tenderness in the crumb upon reheating. I need to adjust the temp and time next time, and I think I can get it better. On reheat only, the one with 50% AP really stood out as superior. Truth be told I would rather cook them all at one time, even though it gave me extra time with my guests.

On to the game.

John

norma427 · « **Reply #423 on:** February 06, 2011, 08:41:49 PM »

Jose,

I also think your crumb looks good.

Norma

John,

It’s interesting that you found your formula with 50% AP stood out as superior. Your pies look great to me. I wonder how a real Pizzarium crust looks on the bottom crust. Did you ever see pictures of the bottom crust and I also wonder just how crisp this kind of crust is supposed to be?
I didn’t ever bake until the bottom was crispy. Did your crumb dry out at all in the reheat? I need to also do another experiment.

What did your guests think of this style of pizza?

Norma

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #424 on:** February 06, 2011, 11:06:35 PM »

Would it be reasonable to conclude that these doughs should be fully topped at the outset if they're going to be reheated (w/adjustments to the baking time in case of concerns about toppings burning etc.) ?

JLP

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #425 on:** February 06, 2011, 11:26:05 PM »

With respect to my own experiment, I'll tentatively conclude that:

-If the dough is to be 100% hand-mixed, have at hand a smooth surface covered with oil, and also a dough scrapper; specifically, don't just let the dough get trapped between your hands and do stretch-and-folds until it can be peeled off. More generally, don't just do stretch-and-folds at will, as it is an extremely powerful technique and can lead to insidious over-development if abused.

-Use a percentage of strong/hi-gluten flour in your mix (cf. John's remarks above).

-If pizza in teglia is to cross the ocean and establish itself in the New World, it will have to be adapted to local flours, and possibly turn into something altogether different, in the same way that the Neapolitan style mutated into the NY style one hundred years ago.

Thoughts?

JLP

dellavecchia · « **Reply #426 on:** February 07, 2011, 06:54:36 AM »

Good points to consider. My crumb did dry out a bit in the reheat, especially the bianco ones, which were not topped with sauce on the initial bake. The bottoms were crunchy - definitely not what Pizzarium pizza should be IMHO but I could be corrected. One other factor in here is the steel pans I have been working with. They are EXTREMELY sensitive to heat. Very efficient pans, but need some attention during the bake - I needed to lower from 500 down to 475 to prevent burning. And they may have contributed to the crunchy bottom on the reheat. I wonder how Pizzarium reheats?

And I like Jose's idea that on a reheat scenario, the toppings are on from the outset. And if I had baked these as normal, I think they would have come out the best yet. I think I may go with 50% 365 Organic AP (which is actually Central Milling Beehive), and 50% Ultimate Performer next weekend.

Oh, and lastly I realized that to get the perfect crumb, you are only as good as your dough to pan technique.

John

norma427 · « **Reply #427 on:** February 07, 2011, 07:36:02 AM »

John and Jose,

You both made good points in your posts. In my best attempt, I also had placed most of the toppings on before the bake. I found while reheating those slices the bottom didn’t get as crisp at market or in my home oven. I don’t know what that means though. There are too many variables in my different attempts. I made another attempt dough last evening and so far the dough is very sticky. I need to work with it today. The blend of flours I used are Durum 30%, Better for Bread 60%, and Caputo Blue Bag 10%.

These are some pictures on flickr, when I typed in Pizzarium. In my opinion there are many different crumbs on Pizzarium slices.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/staximo/406611766/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5393117212/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bsmif/3936879250/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5298757175/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5298756241/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5299358518/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5299356940/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5299358044/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5299357196/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seouleats/3973813604/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paolettas/2962024406/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54254055@N06/5368117556/

When I typed in Bonci on flickr this is one of the pictures that came up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7205884@N07/5391238491/

On this blog, this person had taken a pizza class with Gabriele Bonci

http://www.parlafood.com/le-mani-in-pasta-with-gabriele-bonci/

The above blog, took me to this blog about

http://www.kittyskitchen.it/la-pizza-secondo-gabriele-bonci.html

One thing in the above blog that it says you can get the dough hydration to 100%.

Another article, with Bonci replying in the right column.

http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/01/22/la-pizza-in-urbana-di-gabriele-bonci-il-partito-du-pilu-gozzovigli-da-tricolore-monti-a-roma/

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #428 on:** February 07, 2011, 08:43:32 AM »

These are two pictures of how my next attempt dough looks this morning. As can be seen on these two pictures the dough is way to sticky and has not formed enough gluten yet to be made into a pizza, but it has some strength. Hopefully I will be able to form more gluten in this dough with turns, stretches and folds.

Norma

doughboy55 · « **Reply #429 on:** February 07, 2011, 01:35:44 PM »

What are your thoughts for ricotta cheese, should i top the pizza with ricotta after the par bake, or during it like with the tomatoes?

doughboy55 · « **Reply #430 on:** February 08, 2011, 10:08:51 AM »

Here are a few pictures of my first teglia pizza....
After this experience i learned a lot of things.... handling this dough takes skill so when i see Gabrielle handle the dough like a champ it makes me jealous the first pie i made came out uneven and some spots were thicker than others but my second pie came out pretty good.
Be gentle with the dough almost like you are making love to it lol

http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/teglia%20pizza/

EDIT- I almost forgot to mention how it tasted, the crust was the best i ever tasted hands down and i just need to make some adjustment with the toppings and it will be great.

dellavecchia · « **Reply #431 on:** February 08, 2011, 10:37:21 AM »

Excellent job! You nailed the crumb right off the bat. What temperature did you cook it at, and for how long?

John

doughboy55 · « **Reply #432 on:** February 08, 2011, 10:44:16 AM »

I cooked it at 475 for 10-12 minutes then took it out topped it and then another 8-10. My oven screwed me up on the first pie i preheated to 475 and then half way through it shot down to 350 without no cause, so i started topping the pizza in anticipation for it coming out and it took about 15 minutes longer than i expected. My new lesson is don't top until its absolutely ready to go into the oven and dont use ricotta cheese until after par bake. I completely forgot about the cheese because my grandmother makes that pizza quite a lot and she doesn't par bake it but now i know better. But she does parbake the other but i found its too difficult to spread without pressing the dough to much.

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #433 on:** February 08, 2011, 01:26:55 PM »

Bang-up job Doughboy, could you also share your formula, mix time, etc.?

JLP

norma427 · « **Reply #434 on:** February 08, 2011, 08:32:54 PM »

Quote from: doughboy55 on February 08, 2011, 10:08:51 AM

Here are a few pictures of my first teglia pizza....
After this experience i learned a lot of things.... handling this dough takes skill so when i see Gabrielle handle the dough like a champ it makes me jealous the first pie i made came out uneven and some spots were thicker than others but my second pie came out pretty good.
Be gentle with the dough almost like you are making love to it lol

http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/teglia%20pizza/

EDIT- I almost forgot to mention how it tasted, the crust was the best i ever tasted hands down and i just need to make some adjustment with the toppings and it will be great.

doughboy55,

Your crumb look great!

Nice job on your first try. I would also be interested in hearing what kind of flour you used and what method you used to mix your dough.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #435 on:** February 08, 2011, 08:37:31 PM »

The dough I had mixed on Sunday needed a lot of work to be able to get it to be useable. I worked with the dough a lot yesterday and today, by giving it stretches and folds. I never thought it would develop, but it did. The dough wanted to become lax again and again. When I got to market today, I thought I had taken my steel deep-dish pan to market on Friday, but I must have forgot. I then had to decide today what kind of pan to use. Since I had used the formula for my 18" steel deep-dish pan and didn’t have any other pan that big at market, I decided to cut the dough and do two bakes. The first bake I opened the dough and put it on the deck. If anyone wants me to post the pictures of that bake I will, but that bake didn’t go as well as the second bake. I had a pan at market, that I hadn’t liked before and never used it after a couple of times trying it. It isn’t steel and I never liked how it baked. I didn’t have any way to decide how much dough to use for the TF, so I just guessed. The second bake did go well and the crumb did get light and airy after the bake. I never would have thought the second bake would go so well. I also think the way this dough is handled has a lot to do with how the finished crumb turns out.

Second bake pictures.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #436 on:** February 08, 2011, 08:40:39 PM »

rest of pictures

Norma

dellavecchia · « **Reply #437 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:23:07 PM »

Norma - I think you are now the reigning Pizzarium champion. What an incredible bake!

John

norma427 · « **Reply #438 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:38:18 PM »

Quote from: dellavecchia on February 08, 2011, 09:23:07 PM

Norma - I think you are now the reigning Pizzarium champion. What an incredible bake!

John

John,

Thanks, I was surprised how well this bake went. I never would have thought the pan I used would have given me a decent bake. I don’t know about this light airy crumb, but I did use 4% dairy whey in the formula. I don’t know if that is what gave this recent attempt a better crumb or what happened. I am still trying to figure out why this attempt was better. This dough was really light and airy as can be seen in the pan with the olive oil on before the bake.

Norma

jeff v · « **Reply #439 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:55:55 PM »

Norma-wow. I've only been casually following this thread, but your most recent attempt looks fantastic. Are you using the same recipe and protocol you mentioned a couple pages back?

Thanks,
Jeff