Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 163794 times)

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Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1050 on: April 07, 2012, 07:13:17 PM »
John, You wrote a nice "first look" summary.
I bought the book yesterday and I was glad to see that - workflow wise - we are quite close.
The most interesting parts for me personally are the topping combos, some of which are awesome (as you noticed, great pics) and unexpected.

I'm going to look for whole spelt next week and try the third recipe with dry yeast.

Some initial thoughts...

I am still going through the book, finding words that I need to translate, but overall I just love this book. There is a wealth of information, and some of our experiments have been dead on in terms of technique, workflow, and percentages. There is even a generous amount of information on creating your own "madre", which takes 10 days and uses yogurt for the inoculation.

The book is broken down into 3 different doughs:

1. a white flour (type 0 Buratto) using dry yeast,
2. a "mixed" flour (50% type 2 Buratto, 25% white flour, and 25% whole spelt [farina di farro integrale]) using a combination of dry yeast and natural starter,
3. a 50% spelt, 50% whole spelt using only natural yeast natural.

All the recipes reference one of these doughs as a base. The first two are 70% hydration and the third is 80%. All use 4% oil and 2% salt. The natural yeast is used at 10%, the dry at .7% and .4%, with the third dough using 15%. The book has some amazing photography of the crumb structure of each of the 3 dough types, the second one being the most open. They are all developed by hand.

I love that NONE of the pictures of crumb show an even height - they are decidedly uneven with lots of peaks and valleys. I get the sense that this is a good thing - pockets for the filling to fall into.

I will post more as I get through. I have never read an entire book in Italian, so it is going slowly to make sure I am understanding things correctly.

John


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1051 on: April 08, 2012, 06:44:31 AM »
John,
Thanks for posting your interpretations of Bonci's books. I do have a question I hope you can clarify. In the third formula, is Bonci referring to a 50/50 mix of bolted (white) spelt and integrale spelt or 50% buratto and 50% integrale spelt?

Jimmy - Giulio is correct, 50% farro Buratto and 50% farro integrale. I just ordered some whole wheat spelt from my local farm, and I want to try this one out with the Marino spelt.

Giulio - Yes, the topping combinations are astounding.

John

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1052 on: April 08, 2012, 11:59:48 AM »
John and Giulio,
I was looking over on the M.Mulino website and it says that they are producing a white (I am guessing this is the Buratto) spelt and a whole wheat spelt (integrale) http://www.mulinomarino.it/eng/prodotti.php. I am kind of curious now how similar M Mulino's white spelt is to the one produced by Vita Spelt www.natureslegacyforlife.com/shopping/flours/non-organic-white-spelt-flour-5lbs/.

John,
I have not been back to Williams Sonoma in a while, can your tell from the packaging whether they are selling the Buratto spelt or the integrale?
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1053 on: April 08, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »
Jimmy, I'm not sure because I haven't bought spelt flour from Molino Marino yet.

John and Giulio,
I was looking over on the M.Mulino website and it says that they are producing a white (I am guessing this is the Buratto) spelt and a whole wheat spelt (integrale) http://www.mulinomarino.it/eng/prodotti.php. I am kind of curious now how similar M Mulino's white spelt is to the one produced by Vita Spelt www.natureslegacyforlife.com/shopping/flours/non-organic-white-spelt-flour-5lbs/.

John,
I have not been back to Williams Sonoma in a while, can your tell from the packaging whether they are selling the Buratto spelt or the integrale?

cornicione54

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1054 on: April 08, 2012, 02:48:11 PM »
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but a small point regarding "Farro" which can variously refer to Emmer or Spelt (or even Einkorn/Enkir). My understanding is that Farro usually refers to Emmer.

Confusingly, under "Farro", the Mulino Marino (italian) website names three grains: "Dal punto di vista botanico appartiene al genere Triticum come il frumento, prende infatti il nome scientifico di T.monococcum, T.dicoccum, T.spelta." which refer to Einkorn, Emmer and Spelt respectively but the documentation does not specify which grain is used in their Farro Integrale or Bianco products.

Since Einkorn is referred to as L'Enkir elsewhere on their website, I would guess that narrows the possibilities down to Emmer or Spelt. Mulino Marino lists its source of Farro as "Centro-Sud Italia" which would be consistent with the areas known for growing Emmer. However the Williams-Sonoma Mulino Marino range carries a product labelled "Spelt".

To further confuse the situation: not all Spelts are equal. While Spelt was always a hybrid grain, I've heard that some  modern Spelt hybrids are different to more ancient hybrids/cultivars and are closer (both genetically and flour properties) to modern Wheat than "ancient Spelt".

« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 03:07:41 PM by cornicione54 »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1055 on: April 08, 2012, 03:25:40 PM »
John,
I have not been back to Williams Sonoma in a while, can your tell from the packaging whether they are selling the Buratto spelt or the integrale?

Jimmy - It is not designated as Buratto or integrale - it just says "farina di farro" - but I am pretty sure it is not whole wheat.

John

Offline Greenline

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1056 on: April 10, 2012, 01:10:39 PM »
Since Einkorn is referred to as L'Enkir elsewhere on their website, I would guess that narrows the possibilities down to Emmer or Spelt.

I've mailed the same question a while ago (end of 2011) to them and the answer was that Mulino Marino does not sell Emmer, only Spelt and Enkir (i.e. T. monococcum).

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1057 on: April 10, 2012, 06:52:55 PM »
Trying to figure out the TF of the directed dough ball size in the book, and I am coming up with .082 - which is FAR less than what we have been doing here in the thread. He has 350g dough balls and does not specifically say what size pan to use. The one pictured that he puts the dough into is probably 13.75 x 11 inches. Earlier in the book he talks about a standard size pan being 30 x 60 cm, but that can't be right. I just can't see using that small a TF - or could it be correct?

John

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1058 on: April 10, 2012, 07:11:23 PM »
John,
I'm pretty sure that it's 30 x 35. 

Matt


Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1059 on: April 10, 2012, 07:17:21 PM »
John,
That is one of the problems I have encountered with his recipes, not specific enough. Personally, I think that TF is pretty far off from what I have seen. In fact, judging by the videos and crumb shots it appears that he and his staff mostly wing the shaping process and go solely by look and feel, not worrying as much about thickness.
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1060 on: April 10, 2012, 07:58:55 PM »
Thanks guys - I think I will start with .12 and see how it goes. I also don't think his dough is 70%, and it is lowered for the home cook - but I will try the mixed flour recipe this week as it is outlined.

John

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1061 on: April 10, 2012, 08:12:13 PM »
John,
As far as the hydration, I have seen everything from 80% to 75% hydration levels for his straight dough recipes. I am guessing some of this maybe due to his use of a pasta madre (assuming a 55% hydrated PM) in his dough recipes. If I remember correctly, I once calculated that he could be 80% and 68% hydration based on his original formulas with and without the pasta madre, which is a fairly large ballpark or error.  The best suggestion for his formulation I can offer is... "good luck and let us know your results".
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 08:14:07 PM by JimmyG »
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline RamirOk

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1062 on: April 11, 2012, 12:26:58 AM »
My book has not arrived yet but having been fortunate enough to attend the pizza course with Bonci. I will try to answer some questions on what I learned.
Bonci used in the course dough balls of 700 gr for a 30x40 cm pan so if I'm not mistaken the TF he use is .133, and the pizzas he make in the course were very similar in height to the ones in pizzarium.
On the hydration he start with 80% then after all ingredients are well integrated he adds more water but is not weighted, he always mention that you must feel the dough ill sesto senso. I guess after working with the dough that he ends up with 85% to 90% of hydratation.
I hope I was able to explain well and this info can help a little.

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1063 on: April 11, 2012, 02:41:28 AM »
I agree, he probably lowered the % for the home cook but I have no problem working a dough with 80%+ hydration by hand so I'll stick with that.

Thanks guys - I think I will start with .12 and see how it goes. I also don't think his dough is 70%, and it is lowered for the home cook - but I will try the mixed flour recipe this week as it is outlined.

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1064 on: April 11, 2012, 06:58:25 AM »
That you all for the replies.

RamirOk - That is great information, thank you. I will use that TF for my book test. I think that the book has a misprint in stating 30x60 pan as standard. And his 350g ball as outlined is much too small.

But I will stick with the 70% hydration he states in the book, with 10% starter.

John

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1065 on: April 11, 2012, 07:32:17 AM »
Let us see the results.  :)

That you all for the replies.

RamirOk - That is great information, thank you. I will use that TF for my book test. I think that the book has a misprint in stating 30x60 pan as standard. And his 350g ball as outlined is much too small.

But I will stick with the 70% hydration he states in the book, with 10% starter.

John

parallei

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1066 on: April 11, 2012, 10:52:54 AM »
What I've settled on is an overall HR of 80% (includes 10% starter of flour weight), 2% salt, 2% oil and .3% IDY.  TF = 0.15.  Above 80% HR, I have problems getting the dough into the pan.



Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1067 on: April 11, 2012, 04:48:20 PM »
From the book: white wheat dough (but with 80% hydration instead of 70%).

parallei

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1068 on: April 11, 2012, 05:33:38 PM »
I dropped my computer last night, so everything I see is a sort of reverse blue, light blue, and black.

Your pie looks good this even like this Giullo!  After getting the dough into the pan, did you let it rise at all before sending it into the oven?  I've taken to letting it rise a bit in the pan.

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1069 on: April 13, 2012, 05:26:24 PM »
Thank you.  :) No, I didn't let it rise in the pan.

I dropped my computer last night, so everything I see is a sort of reverse blue, light blue, and black.

Your pie looks good this even like this Giullo!  After getting the dough into the pan, did you let it rise at all before sending it into the oven?  I've taken to letting it rise a bit in the pan.

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1070 on: April 15, 2012, 03:45:05 PM »
From the book: mixed dough (50% buratto wheat flour, 25% white spelt flour, 25% whole spelt flour).
I'm very happy with this one: it's probably the best tasting pizza I've done so far.
I've changed the tomato to a more coarsely shred and less watery type and seasoned it with a mix of dry thyme and oregano from my garden.

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1071 on: April 15, 2012, 04:30:18 PM »
Giulio,
The dough and the finished product looks amazing. That is one of the nicest hole structures I have seen posted on this thread to date. :chef: What brands of spelt were you using? The M.Marino brand or another one?
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1072 on: April 15, 2012, 08:04:14 PM »
Giulio - Amazing bake. Did you do the 18-24 hours refrigerated using a starter or IDY?

John

parallei

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1073 on: April 15, 2012, 11:35:31 PM »
Great Giulio. :chef:  The dough baked up with an lovely color.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1074 on: April 16, 2012, 08:01:46 AM »
Giulio,

Beautiful!  :chef: The crumb color is gorgeous.

Norma
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